This is my summary for Marignon,fiery justice, and will be mainly a sp guide.
I made this guide because marignon is a funny nations but there aren't guides for Middle age.
but don't watse time and let's burn some heretics.
Pretender
Thematically the virtue or the baphomet are the way to go.
you will not need a sc, because marignon has plenty of angelic summon and crossbow can take care of rush.
You will also not need a rainbow pretender, because the main magic path you are looking for(S,F,A.E) are covered by your national mages and you should not worry about other gems(N can be easy found on indie,D is useless,B is useless too)
I suggest
1)a phoenix with f9/Ax awakened or dormant in order to cast buff to your archer(wind guide,flaming arrows).
2)a baphomet f9/s9 for bless(this will double the life of a flagellant and flaming attacks+improved attack skill means they can hurt).

scales
Ord/turm:i'll choose order to reduce the possibily of bad events on your first turns.
turmoil could be good if you need design points(it makes good sinergy with luck)

Death/growth: your best mage and your best priets are old so i'll chose growth.on small map you can choose death but then you will have to protect old mages with anti-aging products.

prod/sloth:if you choose to take the flagellants path, you should take sloth,otherwise take production1 or 2

hot/cold: take hot 1 or 2 because they are design point and this will stop water mages and empower fire mages because some spell are related to temperature scale(fire=hot,water=cold)

magic/drain:you need your crossbow buffed, so i'll take magic 1.

luck/unluck: i never choose unluck because a bad event in the begin can gimp you forever.

Unit
All your units have good morale(11+) with the expection of the crossbowman, normal health(10) and good armor (not excelent)

Crossbowman:You will have to recruit legions of them and then you can begin to laugh evily; buffed with wind guide and flaming arrows, castable by your pretender of a grandmaster with an A pick enmpowered, they can clean the screen from the bad heretics

Infantry: 3 flavor(sword,pike,halberd) but no shield.ouch.
they cost 20+resources,too much for killing them with your arrows.skip

Man at arms: here we go.15 prot,13 def. your best defensive infantry. it doesn't worth a buff.

Royal guard: cavalry with good def and good attack. they attack twice a turn so they are your best offensive weapons for meele if you dont recruit paladins.

Paladins:3 attack for the first turn,2 for the rest. good prot(17) and offensive ability.
a little bit expensive(80g,37res) but who dont like a legion of holy knight with flaming weapons? an heretic that must be burnt,i'll tell you.sacred.
on that (if your lucy) you can use enrage from an indie druid empowered without much problem.

flagellant: two attck but low att value(9 and they literally die like flies).
You can recruit them in any fort,so, with a good dominion you shuld be able to recruit a lot of them. a S9/F9 bless really helps them, and is better than W9(S9 gives them 2 lifes and f9 increse att and dmg.)i dont recruit them.sacred

Commander
scout:"look comment on every other national scout"

spy:with them you can spy. nothing special

assasin: useful to assasinate the enemy of the god.doesn't worth nice magic item(an armor negating weapon could be useful anyway)

paladin: a g.o.r.ed Knight of the chalice. maybe useful as thug.sacred

friar: a stealth preacher, useful to lower heretics faiths from the shadows.sacred

inquisitor: very good to clean your lands from the false god due to inquisitor.sacred

high inquisitor: an improved inquisitor. he have H3 so he can cast divine blessing and can reach H4 when propheted.I always use him as priest for my army because he can be recruited everywhere.sacred

initiate:lesser elemental spammer, later will o' the wisp spammer

witch hunter:2f/1s/1h, useful as battle mage for fire spells.sacred

grandmaster:f3/s2/h2 [100% a/f/s/e;10% a,f,s,e] , very good and cheap (270g). may have air pick(wind guide and prec booster) or eath pick(astral coin ect).cap only;can be used as researcher or caster.sacred.

magic path

alt4(wind guide)-->cons4-->ench5(flaming arrows)-->evocation5(falling fire)-->conj9
atleast this is the path i take in order to destroy the heretics.
or you can choose to go alteration 6and take iron warriors then construction 7 for sharpned weapons and then buff your horde of flagellant(you will have to use alot of empowered mages,so is not a good strategy)
in thaum4 you can take vengeance of the dead and use your flagellant just to let them die vs your opponents'god/prophet(this strategy works best with a d/b bless,but is more funny than useful)




summon
marignon got plenty of nice angelic soldiers so let's use the in our crusade versus the blasphemy created by the mere existence of the enemy.

harbringer[conj6;S4]: A3 so can use some buff, very good vs undead due to the horn,good hp.good choice

Heavenly wrath[conj7,s3f1] blood vengeance, better than the harbringer, but it lack horn.

angelic host[conj7,s5]:6 angels for 50 gem.i prefer harbringer or angel of fury.can be used to conquer far province with weak defense.

heavenly choir[conj9,s7f2]:a seraph.with 3 harbringer.and some angel of the host.summon him.now.

For the last summon you can use the s9/f9 baphomet pretender or an empowered grand master(astral cap+astral coin+ring of wizardy+some empoweremnt)

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

I'm probably going to get yelled at for actually going and *posting* this... and I'll be the first to admit it's not the nicest of posts, but sometimes there's just nothing nice to be said - and who knows? I might inspire future improvement!

To begin with, if you're in such a hurry that you can't spare the time to type up your guide using words rather than chatspeak, you probably didn't have time to think up any worthwhile content, either.
Actually reading the "guide" seems to confirm my suspicion - a rushed job with no substance whatsoever.

Your scales section seem to be nothing but butchered descriptions of what effects the scales have, something that's much easier to read in the manual or in-game - there's nothing about which ones are useful for the nation in question, which might have given it some redeeming value.
The pretenders section is roughly twice as useful, mostly because you actually mention something resembling strategy.

Units? Crossbowmen with buffs and either heavy infantry or paladins, with no reasons given. Okay, that's nice, I guess.

Commanders... well, I'll be darned! You can spy with spies! And assassinate with assassins! What will they think of next? Mages casting spells?!

Magic... well, it looks like we're back to the crossbow buffs. Is that the key strategy, I wonder? Then angels?

Here's a summary of the "guide", for those who'd rather not navigate that jungle of Weblish:

Marignon in five easy steps
1. Build crossbows.
2. Buff crossbows with your pretender.
3. Summon angels.
4. ???
5. Victory!

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Calchet - you have a point, but you don't have to say that so harsh. We don't have a decent MA Marignon guide yet.

Many guides are written in this "here's all they have, these things aren't worth it" format, and there's nothing wrong in listing all the options, especially if e.g. the assassins aren't worth giving expensive magical equipment.

The current grammar is so bad it makes it hard to understand parts of the text, and that could use polish. As was said, scale suggestions should be more affirmative, e.g. "If you focus on Flagellants, take sloth; go neutral otherwise."


Surprisingly, the crossbowmen/flaming arrows strategy Swan described isn't in the strategy index. The F9S9 flagellants aren't there either.

I wager that Swan was drunk or at least sleep-deprived when he wrote this (I know I post some WEIRD stuff when I'm tired), and I suggest that he'll have to write a proper Marignon guide as punishment for the sloppy grammar in this one. Thankfully it's all in the first post of the thread, so he can replace it with the better version.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

I'd say it's more that English isn't his first language. Not that the content is excusable.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Perhaps you are right : more than a guide is a summary.
the point about spy and assasin was that: they are nothing special.
crossbow is the core of marignon strategy for expansion until late game.
about scales what else could i have said? they are a nation with no weak points that you can fix with scales, so i simply wrote an opinion about what to take only for some of them(like temperature).
But anyway your "marignon in 5 easy steps" is right(point 4 is "evil laugh")

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

The prime example in this case would be the three letters "You". In English, this is a word - and a beautiful one, for that matter!

"u" is usually merely a letter, and no word at all. The exception to this is when using what I call chatspeak, though you may know by other names, where it pretends to be a word. In regards to this specific butchery of the English language, some people actually dislike being addressed as such, since it implies that they aren't worth the amount of your time it would take to type the whole "you".

English not being a first language is not an excuse for these types of errors, especially not when the person in question actually does use the real word occasionally, proving that he does know how to type it - he just chooses not to, for reasons unknown.

I'm not demanding that anyone study the language to reach a high enough level of proficiency in order to post on the internet - I'm just asking that you take the few extra seconds required to use what you do know rather than slamming your forehead repeatedly against the keyboard hoping that words will come out.

In either case, if you do clean it up and expand it or call it a summary, I'll be glad to accept it as part of the internet, as well as a (moderately) useful contribution to the sum of human knowledge.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

When i wrte "u" instead of you is when i write quickly; it's not that i choose to write wrong, is simply how i'm used to.
improved scales part.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

and magic part

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

You don't have to be so harsh, Calchet. If it bothers you that much, you can help clean it up.

Swan, you should also mention the main battlemagic routes (Evocation and Thaumaturgy with the conjuration battlemagic-boosters), and little about forging. At least Ring of Wizardry (allows Earth Boots and Crystal Coins on Earth-random Grandmaster), Light/Banner of the Northern Star and such.
Also, using Smite in expansion and early fights, mapmove 2 armies (everyone except normal infantry and Grandmasters, even them if you get winged boots), using spies to shut off enemy economy etc, what to do if you are at war against Abysia, etc.

Initiates are F1, so they can't be used in communion, but if you've got Fire gems to burn a bunch of initiates can summon a respectable amount of Lesser Fire Elementals. Later you can use Will'O'the'Wisps instead, and you get two for every gem you spend, and there's also Combustion and Blindness and Bonds of Fire if you don't care about losing them any more.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

The tones of the thread are becoming... uncomfortable to read. Calchet, if you don't think this isn't a guide woth your attention, please just consider it the will of Swan to share some views, some ideas, some ways he had fun with Marignon he thinks would be funny, and maybe role-playish for others to try. We're in an adult and friendly environment and acting grammar-nazi and going all bold words is a bit harsh I think. Help Swan improve the guide with your thoughts, will ya? :) Here, a beer to everyone! :beer:

Salute! :cheers:

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Please continue work on this.
And others can chime in any suggestions also.

If we do not have a guide for this nation then no matter what is in it, it fills a niche and the effort should be praised (then corrected).

I would also add as a note that eventually it would be nice if all of the suggested pretender builds in all of the guides could be gathered together and put into the SemiRand program.
Yes I know, its a note to myself also.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

hmm it's a nice start when beginning with this nation IMHO, a nice quick review of the troops and advice on which to pick, a pretender advice, start advice for research aims, and a general strat for the start of the game. All I need really.. certainly some other guides are longer but when I'm playing a nation I only need some hints so I can get started quickly.. when playing I'll find out the rest myself.

Good job, personally I think that with that bless you mentioned and high dom flagellants aren't a real bad choice. You also might want to give your opinion on wether diversivication (?) of magic through a rainbow pretender might be worth it.
A thing I like to be stated more clearly is exactly which paths you can get with your mages (as a reference for site searching etc.)
unluck = misfortune btw
Also you migh want to give an advice on what to use as tugs and how you'd kit them out (is a recruitable thugable, and so what would be worth to give it, or is it better to use summons as thugs and sc only?)

And then what endo said.. saying something is usefull in communion without s magic is a very very wrong thing to have in a guide though, strats can be discussed, but facts should be correct.

Calchet, your point is taken, but as with all threads, if you don't like it don't come back after you read it first... enough to do on the forum :D

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Ah, but see, it's not that I don't like the thread as such, I just don't like to see a potentially good and worthwhile thread wasted by the sub-par "guide" as originally presented.
While my methods may be a bit (or a lot) blunt, I believe I did manage to get my important point across. (That is, the ones regarding content, rather than language.)

You'll also note that I never went out of my way to attack any person, such as the topic creator, but instead funnelled my annoyance at the problems I found with the post. Sure, this might be hurtful if it's a guide lovingly crafted over lengths of time unjustly assaulted, but this one was, as a guide, shall we say... less than excellent.

A guide is usually something one spends a little time on, and I'm sure even the original poster did this, if nothing else by actually playing the nation. Letting this work and experience go to waste by attempting to bash it out in five seconds flat, cutting the Ys and Os out of whatever words you can, is really quite a pity.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

I'll admit I laughed at Calchet's posts here and I commend Swan for taking the critiques in good humor. (Which is better than what I can say for myself if it were to happen to me, hehe) The author did post to say it's really just a SP guide. For SP victories, you really don't need a whole lot. =) Maybe post a research path etc to spice it up a bit.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Its not a state of the art guide for sure but I appreciate the effort and it does have some not too bad substance (though I disagree with some of the suggestions from MP prespective).
Anyway there was this thread about MA marignon in which I posted some ideas that worked for me.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

I don't think it actually required any effort. I've hardly played Marignon and I could have bashed that out in under five minutes just from generalisations across the forums and irc.

Edit: Ah, sorry, he's improved it since I last read. 15 minutes.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

actually it took me 14 minutes ti improve it.
I was thinking about crystal matrix and slave for the comunion

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

improved Pretender and commander part

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

All of your Witch Hunters are S1 for 150gp halved upkeep. That's much more easy to afford than Crystal Matrixes. You're also short on Earth gems (only one in four capital-only mages get even E1) and want to stockpile Astral gems for the angels.

Crystal Matrix might be useful if you want to cast a high-level spell on the first round of battle, but I don't think Marignon needs Slave Matrixes.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

If you're open to suggestions, there's a nice synergy with spies and Fire magic. Of course, I'm talking about Raging Hearts.

Basic strategy:

1. Scout out your potential enemy with your spies (or spam Astral Window if you're lazy)
2. Find the capital and any other major resource sites
3. Use spies & Raging Hearts to increase unrest as high as it will go
4. Once their unrest is over 100, they can't recruit any more troops or commanders

The best part about this strategy is that it's completely anonymous unless your spies get caught. Therefore, you can do all of it before declaring war! This strategy isn't my own original idea; I'm sure I've seen it before. But it would make a nice addition to your guide.

"No one expects the Marignon Inqusition!"

Hmmmmm ... that makes me wonder if I should try writing my own guide for MA Marignon, themed on the Spanish Inquisition sketch. ;)

"Our main weapon is fire magic and our powerful priests. Our two main weapons are fire magic, powerful priests, and spies. Wait, our three main weapons are fire magic, powerful priests, spies ... and swarms of crossbowmen. Okay, among our main weapons are these: fire magic, powerful priests, spies, swarms of crossbowmen, sacred heavy cavalry, and spammy flagellants. And angelic summons. Can I start over?"

Nah, not worth the trouble. :D

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Marignon is clearly not the faction beginners would have the most problem playing, in my book. All is pretty straightforward, and, well, simple.
Hack/burn/impale rince repeat. ;)

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

But I liked your post. That would have been fun. Maybe an AAR instead?

Besides, since Inquisitor and holy knights are a basic part of Marignons theme I would like to see it worked heavily into any guide even if its in a comical way. I distrust guides if they dont seem to take into account the thematic portions of a nation. Always feels as if they must be missing something (or seeing something that needs fixed without mentioning the need)

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Im also one who thinks its important to note that OP (original poster) did say SP (solo play)

I think any tips and guides are good to have but I also agree with others that I always felt Marignon was fairly clear as to when, why, and how its played. In fact I often use it as an example of the hard to understand rock-paper-scissors balancing. Ulm is rock, Ermor is paper, Marignon is scissors. From as far back as Dom1 Marignon has always seemed to be the games answer to Ermor. Of course Dom3 spread things around alittle but its still a great choice for fighting certain opponents.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

High Inquisitors are great to hire early, I think. A few extra smiters really cranks up the early expansion.

I like an N4 bless just to keep all the old dudes alive in their old age. Add E4 to keep the knights and mages invigorated. I'm not a fan of flagellants, so I don't go for a big bless. Any rainbow human pretender can add some needed diversity. With so many inquisitor/priests you can go with just dom 5 or maybe even lower.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Dunno, I'd feel a low dom unthematic :)

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

In my opinion a rainbow pretender is not so good for Marignon , because you don't need other path than Air,astral, fire and earth).
Maybe an A/E pretender could be useful for early buff if you don't have enough A/E pick grandmaster, but i dont see the use for W or B or D.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

How are you going to find the magic sites in those other paths? (Nooo ... not Acashic Record! :shock: :))

How will you keep your old mages alive? Some of those other paths have gear that's really nice for thugs, like Vine Shields and Messenger Boots and Quickness Boots and Frost Brands etc etc.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Regeneration for the angels would be useful in the late game too.

Any N1 independent with Ring of Sorcery can cast Haruspex, and if you find sites you can make Thorn Staff, and Thorn Staff, and both astral Rings will already give you Nature 4. Isn't that already enough to summon Ivy King or something?

Besides, N1 + Thorn Staff is enough for forging duties if you have enough gems to afford not using Dwarven Hammer.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

A thorn staff is one-handed. So you can wield it and a hammer too, for forging things like vine shields.

Anyway, it's a pretty good nation that you can play with decent success a few different ways. I like it best playing it with a rainbow mage, that's all.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Isn't that a Thistle Mace?

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure VFB meant thistle mace.

Anyway, I've played them, and I have a pretty good idea what to do with MA Marig, but I am not a strat writer.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Thanks, yeah, that's what I meant.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Why?
While the Inquisitors themselves are extremely devoted to the god the normal populace is always at risk of going astray. Sin and heresy are common and must be rooted out.

Or maybe even the Inquisition isn't really pious but uses the faith only as a tool to justify their dictatorship. And then after years of enforcing the faith in a god that was just invented for that reason he suddenly appears in the cap.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

This nation truly gives a strange feeling : theorically the're not bad (no blood,no death magics), but for an european (catholics mainly), inquisition has much meaning indeed. It would be fun if inquisitor priests were even more efficient while preaching, but adding a fun effect of pop reduction/unrest growth. Fun, and so much realistic, as inquisition depopulated entire regions historically. (in france, we had the Cathare heresy, tens of thousands of innocent pacifists murdered or burned alive. Sure MA Ermor seems cool in comparison)

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

It had to come;

http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/29271/0/tt2.jpg

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

You forgot your caption:

No one expects MA Marignon!

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Hehehee true :D

http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/132198/0/tt3.jpg

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

In the old Loldominions thread there must be something on this line around I think :D

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Thanks for both corrections.

EDIT: Wait, where did all this inquisition spring from? :D This reply was supposed to go to the end of page 3. Congrats for you guys, for making a real-life "I didn't expect this" moment. ;)

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

well, in my opinion you don't need other paths

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

I think that it's ok from a SP point of view, Swan, but vfb is probably thinking from an MP prospective, and in MP you absolutely need to minmax your way to victory :) From this prospective a Nature bless and the access to the very nice Nature items and the Gift of Reason ritual for eventual wished creatures, are all very important and hard to skip ;)

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Well, in SP it is quite easy to diversify your magic : spot a weak AI hampered by its lousy scales, and head right to its capitol.

Even better if your next to mictlan EA or LA (even if they seem to die less, recently, have the programmer done any changes to AIs that I missed ? Or random luck ?)

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

I agree with vfb. I think MA Marig. almost must take a rainbow pretender to have any chance in MP.
You know, I've seen many end games and they all have the same things in common. You'll see death used heavily for GRs, Tartarians etc, you'd see astral abused (I mean really really used) and every single path used. So a nation that comes to MP end game and only facilitates 4/8 paths is dead meat. If there are any exceptions to this then I have yet to see or hear about them.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

You can ignore fire/water/blood and probably earth & air in the endgame! =D

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

You're joking right?

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Rainbows are nice for Marignon, but I think you are overstating it a bit. Adding nature to the pretender is very good, and some earth and air help developing those schools earlier and make for cheaper crafting, but you do not really need anything else.

A titan with air, earth and nature would result in quite adequate mid-game magic diversity and for an astral heavy nation like Marignon, death and blood are very easy to get into by end-game if you really want - I suspect blood would be mainly for bloodstones, though.

Re: Malleus Maleficarum
 

Haha, I guess it wasn't too obvious. But nature/death/astral do tend to play the bulk of endgame magic's role IMO. Blood too.