Avatar Crisis
 

This is the current name of my Faerun project. Set in the Time of Troubles, this map and mod connected scenario places you in command of one of the gods of the Realms.

This thread is for project discussion.

Currently set to encompass only the same area as edi's 466 Adventure map, indeed am using that as a jump start after discussing it with Edi beforehand. :D thanks Edi!

Nations are the forces of a deity. Units, heroes, and summonable beings related to those deities will be their national units.

The map will force the player to take a pre-made avatar customized to match the spirit of the faerunian deity.

I am working on a design doc. any help would be awesome, especially in finding the "right sprites" or help drawing them. I have yet to try, it shouldn't be TOO hard i would hope.

Monkeyvich.

Edited 1/08:
The version attached below has 4 unique Mystran units and a Mystran nation replacing EA Arcoscepale. Best map to use to test this mod would be Edi's Faerun_466, but any will do at this stage.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

First attempt at a custom pretender, please reply with feedback:

#newmonster 2900
#name "Mystra"
#copyspr 1370
#descr "The Mistress of the Weave and Lady of Mysteries, Mystra is the embodiment of wizardly magic in the Realms."
#ap 10
#mapmove 1
#hp 75
#prot 0
#size 4
#str 10
#enc 3
#att 10
#def 10
#prec 15
#mr 16
#mor 24
#gcost 100
#pathcost 10
#startdom 4
#awe 5
#female
#forgebonus 25
#itemslots 15494
#magicbeing
#magicboost 53 5
#magicskill 0 3
#magicskill 1 3
#magicskill 2 3
#magicskill 3 3
#magicskill 4 3
#magicskill 5 3
#researchbonus 40
#restrictedgod 0
#superiormagicleader
#end

thanks!
Monkeyvich

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

take a look at vanilla pretenders, and see if certain stats are maybe always the same (and yours are different). Hint: there are 2 you should change.

For the rest she's insanely powerfull in magic.. which would of course fit Mystra, but not balance if she's mean to be played by a player. Might be a fun god to give the AI.

ANd I think it's good you followed up on my advice to start with that map, it's great and will save you a lot of tedious work on map making.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Would those be #mr and #mor ? :D

Would it be balanced assuming a slightly higher magic level than standard Dom3 ?

Monkeyvich.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

I'm not sure what kind of feedback you want. Obviously it's ridiculously strong by dom3 standards, with 8 in several paths before spending any points.

But you're going to be balancing it against other avatars we haven't seen so,..? Not sure what you're after.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Not even remotely, no. Unless slightly means hugely in this case.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

I will post several after working them up. got a new prebuilt mystra that might be fairly ok.

#newmonster 2900
#name "Mystra"
#copyspr 1370
#descr "The Mistress of the Weave and Lady of Mysteries, Mystra is the embodiment of wizardly magic in the Realms."
#ap 10
#mapmove 1
#hp 50
#prot 0
#size 5
#str 10
#enc 0
#att 10
#def 10
#prec 14
#gcost 200
#pathcost 20
#startdom 4
#awe 5
#female
#forgebonus 25
#itemslots 15494
#magicbeing
#magicskill 0 4
#magicskill 1 4
#magicskill 2 4
#magicskill 3 4
#magicskill 4 7
#magicskill 5 4
#researchbonus 40
#restrictedgod 0
#superiormagicleader
#end

What I'd like to know is (1) how is the above for the final stats for her as a scenario-preplaced pretender? and (2) what would you change to make her a decent pretender chassis without being more than 2x as powerful as a standard pretender (FR is pretty high magic).

Thanks

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Its not what they are in Dominions as much as what they can become. I know the image of Mistra is mucho magic but with build points, and boosting equipment, and empowerment, and gems in combat, and communion Im afraid this one can become the equivelent of a nuclear bomb.

You are headed toward a scenario? Combining map and mod?
Since both can be used seperately (Ive asked for a map command that requires a mod and vice versa but havent gotten it yet)

I would create her in the mod as a standard magic-build chassis like crone or mage are. few magics but low cost on adding magics. That way if the mod is used alone she will be more like other dom pretenders.

Then use map commands to place her and build her up the way you would prefer the players should build Mistra. Keep in mind that if you cross from 3 in a magic to 4 (during the initial build) then you are granting blessings to her sacred units. If you REALLY want her higher magic'd than 3 then what you can do is give her 3, then also start her off with boosting equipment which would take her higher. That way she isnt getting blessings from it.

You might also create your own boosting items which dont really exist. I mean like the Lich pretender starts with a Magic Sceptre in his description which does specific damage. But he also has 2 hand slots so if you give him another weapon his sceptre disappears form the description. Maybe you can give MIstra a magic sceptre which is only in the description which grants her magic boosts, and NOT give her hand slots. Mention in the descript that "Mistra will never give up her sceptre" to explain why. Whether or not such an item would count toward blessings I dont know. Oe of the regular modders might know.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Oh and I mentioned designing the mod for if its used without the map. But I didnt mention use of the map without the mod. The reason is that....
I dont know. I havent thought about that before. I should probably find out what happens if a map places something that only exists in a mod that the player does not have.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

What you're talking about is a weapon, not an item gandalf. It does nothing other than the stuff weapons can usually do.

If you wanted to create a god which had high magic which didn't grant a bless, I think the easiest way would be to give it a secondary form with stronger magic and a one way shapechange into that form. Turn 1 you shapechange, et voila.

I'm not 100% sure whether a magicboost monster mod command would be factored into a bless, if the monster was preplaced and given magic 3 or whatever in the map commands.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Preliminary (pre-unit creation) design of the Mystran faction:

#selectnation 0
#name "Mystrans"
#clearnation
#clearrec
#clearsites
#epithet "Keepers of the Weave"
#era 3
#descr "Worshippers of the Lady of Mysteries include a large variety of wizards, clerics, mystic theurges, and even a special order of mage/rangers."
#brief "Mystrans are worshippers of Mystra, the goddess of magic. They collect mystic lore as a sacred duty, and so have many skilled researchers and a variety of wizards offer their services to the Lady of Mysteries. Mystra is also served by the Order of the Shooting Stars, an order of magic-wielding rangers."
#summary "PROS: Many wizards and priests, good research. CONS: Few melee units, few sacred units."
#flag "./Avatar Crisis/mystra_flag.tga"
#color 0.7,0.5,1.0
#templepic 6
#startfort 17
#defaultfort 17
#farmfort 2
#forestfort 19
#mountainfort 24
#swampfort 25
#uwfort 13
#deepfort 43
#end

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Pretenders have morale 30, magic resistance 18.

Also, pretenders come in several varieties. Look at them and study them and learn which limits the various groups have. Some examples:

1) Rainbow pretenders. The Conceptual Balance versions are actually pretty decent. Some rainbow pretenders are tough enough to use for expansion (Ghost King, perhaps the immortal Liches, Vampire Queen if anyone could afford to use her). These have low starting dominion.

2) Size 6 titans. Titans usually have level 3 in one path, levels 2 and 1 in two paths, or sometimes level 1 in two or three paths. They often have some special ability, like forge bonus, Awe or Fear, but only one of these. They have starting dominion between 2 and 3, usually.

3) Monsters. They usually have either only one or two paths and other paths very expensive, OR no initial paths at all and every new paths costs 50 points. They have low starting dominion (1 or 2).

4) Immobiles. They have one or two paths, they are very cheap to choose, they have higher than average starting dominion (3 or 4).

In unmodded Dominions, highest starting path is 3 in a single path (Cyclops, Oracle, Fountain of Blood etc) or 2 in 2 paths (immobile Baphomet (Marignon) or Divine Glyph (Machaka/Abysia IIRC)). In Conceptual Balance, most rainbow pretenders start with level 1 in two or three paths and those aren't unbalanced either. Anything above these limits will give access to unbelievably powerful blesses.
Only immobiles start with dominion 4, others may have dominion 3 at maximum. Otherwise, they'll easily afford dominion 9 or 10 and get Awe, which makes them insanely powerful expanders.


Dominions gods aren't actually Gods of the same power level as existing Forgotten Realms gods, but beings that wish to become that powerful. Don't do Mystra, but do a Lady of the Weave, modeled after the Great Enchantress. If you want to make it more powerful, model it after Conceptual Balance version.
Oh, and encumberance 0 is a REALLY bad idea. Enc 2 is minimum for normal humans, enc 1 is minimum for anything that lives including Superman and equivalents. Enc 0 means that you don't breath or rest or sleep.



Also, if you still really don't understand what's wrong with your Mystra, imagine this:

F9A9W9E9 with dominion 10, which means she has 19 attack and defence, 9 innate protection and incredible precision with Awe +6 or so. She can probably conquer one province per turn without any equipment. Then add in the fact that she can research level 1 in any school in a single turn, so she'll get buffs insanely fast. Alternatively, she can wear any armor without getting any fatigue at all.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

hmmm well that is all assuming he means this girl to be played, cus then it would be hard to find balance even with other gods he'l create. If this one is supposed to be AI (but I agree that isn't how he brougth it) then I'd not mind fighting her.. might be a challange.

For the rest if you want to make balanced pretenders then endo has given all you need to know. If you want them a bit stronger you could make one path to like 4 (hugely decreases points needed to reach 9) or 2 points extra on a path/paths that aren't 3 already, or give an extra ability for combat pretenders, or higher research bonus etc etc.

Btw I'm not that much into the setting but wheren't the gods on earth a lil less powerfull than they where before? (because what you made would rival with the most powerfull gods you could have in the forgotten realms (don't know the exact names you'd give them.)

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Yes, that version of Mystra has now been scrapped. I keep thinking of full magic research as something any clever player with enough found-gem-sites can empower themselves up to eventually.

Encumbrance was not clearly explained in the mod guide I was looking at, thanks for the help with that one.

I have gotten a basic modded Mystran nation (no predefined pretender, so make a rainbow to your specifications) and put it through a test or two, anyone want to volunteer for comments on the potential suckiness / overpowertude of these guys please respond here or send me a PM. I will post versions here as they become more polished.

It uses primarily stock units, I created 4 new units for Mystra, she also recruits Militia, Crossbowmen, Mystics, Priestesses, Wizards, and three powers of Theurg. Modified Rangers of Ulm serve her as troops under modified ranger captains. The Rangers are Mystra's only non-priest sacred units.

Monkeyvich.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

I'm probably willing to help a little with that, I'm pretty busy lately so I'd probably be a bit slow (well, for me) with info though.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

:D I used to have a similar problem. I suggest you find the #dominions irc channel and lose few blitz games. They probably won't take more than a few hours each, and usually end before turn 50. If you lose early, they can end before turn 10. :hurt:

That will also teach you about blesses. They are a big part of the whole pretender design business.

First Mystra Test Release
 

OK. The first "deity nation" is ready for some testing and comment. Please note that this is a VERY ROUGH version and I have already seen flaws in it... Comments welcomed as usual.

Mystra replaces Arcoscephale (EA). No set uber-pretender, this mod will be most rewarding on Edi's Faerun_466_Adventure for now.

Enjoy!

4 Unique Units, many stock units. Art changes planned and tweaks to stock units will be done before final release.

Monkeyvich.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Besides testing that file and commenting on my first army design, please, if any of you are Realms fans, I need input on suggested:

Stock units that can be easily adapted to Realms specific stuff either visually or stats-wise. I am browsing sprites, but I have had the most problems in making a hero accidentally a recruit and such. Most of my units will thus probably be custom stats with #copyspr to save me paintshop time.

Also units that would be good thematic summons for the various deities. Some write themselves (i.e., Kossuth), but others are less obvious and I've been sick for several days so my concentration has suffered. :/

As posted above, the national units thus become deity-specific units, most units are recruited from poptypes or captured magic sites. Generic FR and national summons that you'd like to suggest are welcomed. :D

Posting list of nations to suggest units for below:

Helm
Bane
Silvanus
Selune
Shar
Cyric
Gond
Kossuth
Istishia
Akadi
Grumbar
Ilmater
Sune
Umberlee
Talos
Auril
Corellon Larethian (elves)
Horus-Re (Mulhorandi)
Garl Glittergold (gnomes)
Moradin (dwarves)
Yondalla (halflings)
Gruumsh (orcs)
Maglubiyet (goblins)
Kurtulmak (kobolds)
Blibdoolpoolp (kuo-toa)
Annam (giants)
Tymora
Beshaba
Mask
Shaundakul
Oghma
Chauntea
Tempus
Mielikki
Torm
Loviatar
Ubtao (Chultans)
Uthgar (barbarian tribes)
Talona

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Goblins are kind of obvious (shinuyama). Hoburgs would probably work for halflings or gnomes. For giants there are plenty of choices. Hinnom, ashdod, gath, utgard, niefelheim, jotunheim... I think one of those last three has some goblin units in it as well.

Aside from that I can't really help there.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

I'd like to have at least one troop and one commander for the following giant types: Hill Giant, Fire Giant, Stone Giant, Storm Giant .. some of these, especially Storm Giant will come from Titan pictures I'm sure. Leaving out Cloud Giants and some other, more obscure giants out for module clarity.

I confess to not having played several of these races (and never find Hoburgs as a poptype for some reason grrr).

Monkeyvich.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Hoburgs are pretty rare, at least in most of my games. I think it's age-dependant how often you find them. There's also some hoburg mercenaries in the game.

For a stone giant you could maybe use a cyclops? Or you could try a Golem. There's a pretty thorough sprite listing here, maybe it will give you some ideas.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Ah, perfect, that's just what i was looking for! Although I'm going to have to do a lot of statchurning.

Monkeyvich.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

although i could still appreciate some help :P :D

Monkeyvich.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

Here are few thoughts about making new commanders. All were written on the spot, and the pricing guideline is untested and experimental and will only give guidelines that you then adjust. Try to play lots of different nations to get a feel for different things. Rangers and Tricksters remind me of LA Man and LA Ulm (both have stealthy guys and stealthy mages, so I suggest trying them if you haven't already.


Military commanders have +2 hp, +1 att/def more than similar non-commander units. Knight commanders get higher strength, archer commanders often get +1 precision, if units have stealth or siege bonus or castle defence bonus the commander usually gets it little higher, etc.

Most nations can only get level 4 in their primary path through a random, and level 3 in other paths only through a random.
Many nations can only reach level 4 with more than one random. Air-specializing nations shouldn't have too much difficulty getting at least one Air 4 mage, because they need that for item boosters.
There are many different mages, but the below categories might be helpful. Low-level mages are often researchers, mid-level mages combat mages and your main forgers/ritual casters, and high-level mages are often capital-only commanders you can't use everywhere because you don't have enough of them. All nations don't have all of these. Some mages won't fit into any of these.

Low-level mage: usually just level 1 in one or two paths, sometimes with random.
Mid-level mage: no more than four picks altogether, and with highest magic path between 2 and 3. Examples: E2F1 10%?, F3, F2S1, D2N1 100% ?.
High-level mage: more than four picks, at least level 3 (perhaps through randoms, but then it better be a good chance). More magic, good path combinations or many randoms that allow level 3 in more than one path make him more powerful.

All nations get a priest that they can recruit from every castle. Access to a priest of a certain level is better than a mage-priest of same level, because mage-priests require both lab and temple before they can be recruited. However, mage-priest of higher level is still better than a priest of lower level. H3 is very high, H2 is "high priest", H1 is normal priest.
Almost all nations get sacred units. Some also get sacred summons. Most sacred units are restricted to capital.


Very random and untested guideline for commander pricing:

Basic commander/scout: 30 gp
special abilities (stealth, illusions, spy, assassin, siege bonus...): each adds a little to the price, lets say 10 gp/ability at default rank.
Magic: +30gp/magic path or so, but this is the hardest to balance
sacred: +10 gp
Holy magic: +20 gp/pick, but varies a lot
Giant: +15 gp or so
+10 gp or so for every increase in leadership ability (#okleader to #greatleader, #nomagicleader to #poormagicleader etc)


Arcane Trickster: Stealth, glamour, 1 pick of magic, 35% random (I'll add 10 gp for this too)
-> 30+10+10+30+10 = 90 gp

Ranger-Sergeant: stealth, glamour, 3 picks of magic, sacred, 50% and 25% randoms (+15 and +10 or so)
-> 30+10+10+10+25+ 3*30 = 175 gp

Resource cost is #rcost + equipment resource cost. #rcost is 1 for most units. Big units automatically get higher resource costs. To avoid increasing resource costs of cavalry, use #ressize 2 to make their resource cost calculated as if they were size 2.



Ranger of the Shooting Star: #illusion gives them automatic +20 to Stealth (or thereabout), so #stealthy 0 will be enough. Give them a helmet, shieldless units need it to protect against missiles. Little ambidexterity will help. See EA Tien Chi to compare them to an existing sacred unit with two shortswords.

Ranger-Sergeant and Arcane Trickster:
Reverse their roles. Cheap Ranger-Sergeant can be recruited to lead your troops, or to research when you're short on money. Arcane Tricksters feel more thematic for a mage role than rangers.

If a mage has only random magic, he can be recruited even in castles that don't have a laboratory. Consider making Ranger-Sergeants H1 recruitable-everywhere priests with a random, or two partial randoms.

If you want Mystra to be a nation dominated by magic users, their recruitable-everywhere mages should be useful in the battlefield and have access to many paths that let them do lots of different stuff. You can make more than one rec-everywhere mage if you want each to be specialized. Nation that is too dependent on its capital-only mages won't feel that magical in a big game.


Whew, long post. Perhaps I should repost this as a "general guide to making mod nations". This became a lot longer than I thought.

Re: Avatar Crisis
 

yes Im thanking Endoperez post. :)
Monkeyvich has been asking me in the chat and Ive been having to say I dont remember and refer him to the IRC folks.
It has made me feel guilty. :)
Thanks Endo, you da man!