Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

I'm trying to get a handle on hte Agartha golem crafters for a single player game that I might use later on in multiplayer.
I'm stuck on what to use for a pretender and what kind of scales I need, to be specific, whether Growth should be a factor (what with all the old age going around) or use Order instead (and maybe get a perk if I use Hidden in the Sand).

For my pretender, I decided to go with an imprisoned oracle for the 600 design points and great dominion strengths, which would help my golems later on.

For magic, I have 9 Astral (to give me access to the ring of wizardry, and Golem spells, as well as all the usually perks) and 6 Earth (for the bless and so I can use Earth Blood) In combination I can create the Sword of Many Colors, with the Ring of Wizardry would allow my Golem Crafters to make Staff of Elemental Mastery (although I don't know if that is worth it).

So, the hard part (although I may be completely off with all of my pretenders) is the scales.
I have 42 points left over and an 8 dominion strengths.
I have so far 0 order
3 productivity
1 heat (cold blooded Agartha, so why not. Also counters many cold sides)
0 Growth
0 Luck
1 Magic

I'm playing with the idea of going3 turmoil, 3 luck and 1 in growth, but I'm curious of what people think?

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

speaking of agartha pale ones : can someone explain to me how can those creatures be cold-blooded ? in the description it is said they do not face the sun, yet they wont be affected in hot lands, but by cold lands ^^

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

Personally, the thing that strikes me about the Agartha is there how similar they are to the atlantians. Never stop growing, live hundreds of years and very similar paths in magic. Oh and don't forgot the amphibianism part of it.
Are they an offshoot of atlantis that grew underground?

Oh, and about the cold blood, they are like underground salamanders that are blind.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

Agarthans truly are an enigmatic race. They spend their time in apparently cold caverns and rarely see the sun, yet they are cold blooded and prone to fatigue because of this. It doesn't help that one of their strengths, the fact they are amphibious, sees them running into the common cold 3 dominion of underwater races, all of which will school them in the water anyway.

Agarthans are one eyed with very poor precision and are clumsy in battle, with terrible attack and defense. They are however very strong. So with typical agarthan logic, they bring glaives to battle, which give malus to attack and defence and do high damage. So if they hit something (which they don't) it's double dead. But surely they'll hit /something/ you cry? Well it certainly 'helps' that they are size 3 or 4 and so suffer from being swarmed and being unable to swarm back. But surely their armour is excellent? In their ancient wisdom agarthans have elected to wear relatively high enc armour with unimpressive protection, knowing as they do that they are so effectively shielded by their tower shields that they need not worry about missile weapons. I jest of course, what agarthan would be seen with anything bigger than a buckler? It's sheer madness.

I don't think there's any question as to why they end up extinct. Along with draconians, they are the dodos of the dom3 world.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

And yet they look cool :p

I think in EA one should just skip Agathan troops and go for summons and Troglos. The rare Agarthans you'll see in an army are thus wise Ancient Oracles with their great magic and strong Ancient Ones kitted for battles. It feels quite thematic for an ancient dying race ;)

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

It's hard not to love the Agarthans after Sombre's description :)

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

Well, regarding MA Agartha, I don't generally worry about the Pale Ones very much, except for the capital-only mage.

Something that people may not be aware of (if they didn't play Dom2) is that MA Agartha has the 'Golem Cult' effect on its Dominion. That is, all Constructs gain +10% HP per point of Dominion. Thus, certain choices are much easier for them.

Enchantment is a very strong school for them because of their national summons (all of whom are Constructs). If/when you can break into water gems, Claymen actually aren't bad for them. The boost to their HPs raises their regeneration value to the point that they're pretty hard to kill.

Of course, Construction is also good, and if you can cast Mechanical Militia, your PD gets a lot better.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

Just to be clear, I /love/ agarthans. They're up there with Bog Beasts for me. They're just adorable and all 3 of the ages of agartha are interesting, different and cool.

It's just that Agarthans themselves are such a race of cave dwelling turkeys.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

How necessary is gold or growth to the Agarthians?
Is turmoil/luck a good combination with them, because I do find it hard to find none Earth gems with the Agarthians.
How often should you buy Agarthian mages instead of the Golem Crafters?

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

I would go Astral 6 max, use the points to get another school (nature) to 4. GOH.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

I found that, in EA, you can expand quite rapidly with a nice bless, can't remember exactly, but something along the lines of f9/x6/x4. Not game winning, but it can bring you to the point where your summons take over the serious battles.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

Well, this mystery can be expalined only with a new age.
Anyway i think that could be true

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

What about 4 in either water/fire/air. Water gets me claymen and a bonus to defense, fire gets me ???? and bonus to attack, Air gets me gargoyles, airshield and the ability to build Staffs of Elementally master.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

I think this is very thematic for the pale ones. They simply have no idea how to fight above ground. Long glaives might be good in an underground tunnel but not as great on an open field. Have you read the description of the Kin-Breaker, the prince who lead the disastrous attempt to conquer the surface world in EA? (MA hero, shift+u and add the unit onyx oracle)
"Kin-Breaker lead his armies as he had done underground, with strategies unfit for a sunlit world. Outshot, outflanked and outwitted, his royal army was annihilated."
Poor Kin-Breaker :(

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

Well I agree that KO is well aware the Agarthans are a tragic race.

But you imply that a glaive is somehow better in a cave, or that Agarthans do better there. They don't. They suck outside of caves and they suck inside them (in the extremely rare case where there is a cave on the map and agartha gets to fight in it).

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

Is hidden in the sand a good spell for the Agartha to shoot for, or is it best just to aim for the statues and be done with?

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

Mmh, I tried a test game some time ago with a f9n6e6 bless and they... 5ucked :( maybe with an awake SC they can survive the initial stage better...

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

That Sombre's description is hilarious. My first ever SP game (after messing a bit with the tutorial) while I was still playing the demo was with Agartha. I was struggling really bad to conquer the indies. And then I ran into my first AI opponent - Helheim. Needless to say, it was very frustrating.

In EA I would probably expand just with troglodytes and try to get to conj5 ASAP.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

You are a comic genius. :)

-Max

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

If Caves worked as intended (automatic Darkness), glaives would be pretty good on them because Agarthans wouldn't have a problem with attack/defense. In fact, Agarthans with glaives would be absolute monsters under such conditions. One hit, one kill.

-Max

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

Yes, darkness would really make a difference against almost all nations.

Perhaps Caves and Deep Seas should get, if not darkness, then at least severe penalties for units without darkvision.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

Hmm so what is special about cave provinces if not darkness? I thought cave provinces were (supposed) to be dark?

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

It's a bug on the shortlist: Cave provinces are supposed to have automatic Darkness but it doesn't currently work. I like Endoperez's idea about Deep Seas being dark too, but that would be a design change and not just a bug fix.

-Max

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

So back on subject, what are some good dominion points for the Agatha. A high Dominion takes advantage of the cult ability, but is high production necessary? And how necessary is gold for the units? Extra gold is always a plus, but how does order stack vs. Turmoil and 3 luck?

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

This is a really odd build, and is probably not for everyone, but I had a joint victory (my first win! or half win!) playing MA Agartha like this, so I will describe, in case it brings you any luck, or at least fresh ideas -

Dormant Great Enchantress, Dom4(!), E6/S6/N4, Order3/Misf2/Magic1 (I actually had Growth1/Misf3, don't ask, cause I don't know! It was my first MP signup.)

It's comical, as the bless ultimately does little for your statues (MR is okay for the little ones, but MR items do not stack with Astral bless on the Marble Oracles), and they are 0Enc and Lifeless, so do not benefit from E/N blessings. However, the bless is actually rather effective on your recruitables, and is very nice for your mages.

However, by the end of the game, I had up -

Gift of Health
Earth Blood Deep Well
Arcane Nexus
And some other global that slips my mind, I had Stellar Focus most of the game, but at the end I think it was Mother Oak.

Golem Cult is a fun novelty, but only helps under your own dominion, so it's a catch-22, since you will be fighting in enemy dominion a lot (especially with Dom4!). Your Golem Crafters can forge Water Bracelets, and then you can set them to Summon Earthpower, Acid Boltx4, which is devastating considering their low cost, and sacred status. This also gives access to Manifest Vitriol. A Marble Oracle with a Crown of Command can lead Vitriol Lions against Illithids, or anyone using heavy Astral spells for a completely Mindless troop, just give your Oracle a wand or a crossbow so he stays behind the Lions, and stack some MR gear on him.

Anyway, the game was a mess, but I won (well, half won!), and it just illustrates how sometimes you don't have to play towards a nation's obvious strengths, or even try to shore up their obvious weaknesses, to succeed. :p

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

yeah, sometimes it depends on who you sleep with =P

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

I think we can use a "50% darkness penalties" for these battlefields. i.e if a unit has at least 50% darkvision like the humans in LA, he fights perfectly. Otherwise, he should take penalties like 50% DV units under that spell.

This would also explain why oceania has not finished off Atlantis and Rlyeh in EA.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

I'll note that I tend to be much more 'traditional' with MA Agartha and take a very high Dominion and prioritize spreading Dominion.

Claymen are actually quite nice in your Dominion, as the bonus HP raises their Regeneration. I wasn't aware that the Marble Oracle could gain Leadership from Items... I'll have to use them now. ;)

And, of course, if you take a Monolith, I believe it is affected by your Dominion. Given Teleportation, you can use the 'damage reflection' strategy with it quite nicely.

Re: Agartha: Golem Crafters
 

I wish caves and deep seas were 50% or 100% dark but it's been on the shortlist forever now and it doesn't look like it will be 'fixed'. Even if it was, it would really only be in scenario style maps that you got human controlled agarthans in caves. Admittedly in any map with caves defined you'll get some indy DV units though, making them interesting in how you can tackle them.