Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Anyone know the mechanics of the eye loss effect?

Thx

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

If you hit the Eye Shield in melee then you need to make an MR check, I think against Pen+2. If you fail that check you lose an eye.

To hit the Eye Shield in melee, you need:

(Def+DRN) < (Attack+DRN) < (Def+DRN+5)

Some of those '<' might actually be '<='. 'Def' does not include shield parry.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Are you sure they actually need to hit the shield vfb?

Because it seems more likely the eye shield would just give the #eyeloss ability that Seraphs have, which has nothing to do with shields. It's easy to test - just set the eyeloss shield /armour/ up as being 1 parry on a unit with absurd defence against enemies with low mr.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

:shock:

Thanks Sombre! I don't know where I got that idea from, about having to actually hit the shield. But it's totally wrong! I tested with attack-30 mr-1 units against a def-10 unit and they lost an eye on every single hit. I tested with attack-1 mr-1 units against a def-20 unit and they lost an eye on every single miss.

So every melee attack on a unit who is wearing an Eye Shield always causes eye loss if the attacker fails his MR check.

Sorry Slobby, my original post was wrong.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

I think you got that idea from the lengthy discussion of Eye Shields in the early stages of the Kingmaker thread, where the anecdotal conclusion was that you might have to actually hit the shield to gain the affliction.

Is interesting, as a straight MR check, it's more of something to pass on as anti-SC gear, I was under the impression it was quite potent as that goes, but against 20+ MR it should rarely be effective.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

It's a penetration+1 check, from the debug log:
spec_mr pen 12 mr 1

A H3 Smite in the same magic-neutral province shows up in the debug log as:
spec_mr pen 11 mr 1


I agree it's not spectacular as an anti-SC device, but if it's an extended battle between two combat SCs, once it triggers, there goes your defense and attack. I have experienced this pleasure first-hand from the wrong side of the shield. :)

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

It certainly means they're strong against normal units on a high defence thug, like one of the van or sidhe ones.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

I think the question boils down to whether you'd rather (once you hit const. 4) have a vine shield or an eye shield for the same cost in N gems.

BTW, disregarding the magic effect, they're both 0 enc, 5 def, but the eye shield is 15 prot vs. 12 on the vine shield (FWIW).

I think for most purposes (thugs/SCs) the vine shield wins, but occasionally if I'm especially N gem rich, I'll forge an eye shield for an important caster.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

astral shield and eye shield for anti-sc an idea?

Why is the vine shield considered better for a SC btw?

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

well less attacks in a turn = less def penalty :)

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

I like the fact that on a budget thug if it loses to sacreds, for instance, it will still have blinded several of them.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

As the perpetrator of the Great Kingmaker Blinding, I suppose I'll reveal the true power of the Eye Shield.

As vfb has pointed out, you do not have to hit the shield to gain the effect. In fact, you don't even have to hit the opponent...the very act of initiating the attack triggers the effect, BEFORE THE ATTACK ROLL. The attacker must then PASS A MAGIC RESISTANCE CHECK AGAINST 12, or lose 1 of his eyes.

Think about the two embolded points for a moment. Since the effect is triggered before the attack roll, if the attacker does indeed lose an eye, his attack is immediately and permanently lowered by 2. He then makes his attack roll, and if your Eye-Shield wielder manages to survived the mallaced attack, the adventure repeats the following turn...only this time, if the attacker loses his other eye, his attack is immediately and permanently dropped to ZERO.

So basically, all one needs to do is design a thug that can reliably survive being swarmed for a grand total of 2 turns. If he makes it, he's now surrounded by pile of blinded foes that can't hit him, and can't defend themselves. As Baalz latest guide points out, this is VERY easy to do.

In fact, my Kingmaker expansion was done using E9N4 blessed & Air Shielded Sidhe lords with Eye Shields...their glamour, high defense, and decent protection would keep them alive for those critical 2 turns, and then the only problem was dealing enough damage to inspire a rout before the turn limit was hit.

All that for a lowly Construction-2 item.

And they retained their usefullness right up until I overextended myself out of the game. But I have to say, the best part of the Eye Shield was that, while I could only kill maybe 10 regenerating Woodsmen each battle, my Lords would rout to safety taking 50-odd eyeballs with them, who's owners continued to demand a paycheck and that cushy Utgardian benefits package. You think it sucks getting 40 militia from a(n un)lucky event, ask DC what it's like to finance a Convalescence Home for Elite VFWs. Unintended economic warfare!

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

I think you've gone a bit overboard with the hyperbole there Cleveland.

2 rounds? Only if every attacker fails his mr roll every single time and you don't kill any of the people surrounding you (or new, sighted people will step in and attack) and the enemy has no missile weapons or spells.

It might be interesting to have a double shielded (eye and something else) thug with astral 1 keep casting blink and bouncing around, 'exposing' himself to more and more troops to blind them without killing them.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Thanks for doing the testing vfb. I've seen this discussion spring up at least 3 or 4 times since I'm on the forums, with all kinds of theories being floated around, but as far as I can remember no one ever actually offered conclusive evidence.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

But if he can survive the through the 2nd round, he can surely survive beyond that...the swarmers get rapidly and progressively worse as time goes by.

Missiles are indeed a different story, but Vine/Gold/Charcoal/Aegis shields all have the same problem.

If you're building a thug and plan to spend 10N on a shield, I'd recommend (in general) a Vine Shield if he's high defense/low protection (who needs to avoid hits to stay alive) and an Eye Shield for a low defense/high protection thug (who can take the hits and permanently disable his foes), as this will make him much greater threat to anti-thugs.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Hehe, is that you Cleve - I can't see? :)
Yeah, the Eye Shield/Sidhe combo sucked. I even had squeezed in an S blessing for a +1 MR boost knowing woodsmen can get pwned, but still ended up with legions of blind woodsmen and skratti on my disabled roster. Until, that is, I was able to find some warmongers who would trade me brands, which were worth their weight in gems, since even a blind skratti can hit the side of a barn with a frost brand.

Blind skratti can still research and blood hunt luckily, so its not complete disaster. But kudos to Cleveland for demonstrating to me, at least, the power of the Eye Shield. On a difficult research setting like we had in KM, it was a masterpiece of annoyance! :)

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Sorry for going a bit off topic but couldn't find a thread concerning this. Vine Shield vs. Eye Shield

I was wondering if the enemy units having attack skill reduced to zero still lower your SC/thug/whatevers defence skill?

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Don't need Blink, just use Stymphalian Wings and a Shield of Gleaming Gold.

-Max

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Yes, they do.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

There was definitely a debate on the merits of vine versus eye shield somewhere, but not necessarily in a topic specifically on it.

My feeling is that vine shields are best when you aren't sure your character can suck up enough punishment when swarmed, usually because it's more defence-dependent rather than protection, awe, mistform or ethereality. Eye shields are good against thugs or giants, as they aren't so hampered by tangle vines, don't have exceptional MR to resist eyeloss. Against SCs likely to have MR in the 20s, eye shields aren't so useful as the attacker will almost certainly resist. A vine shield however can often tangle an opposing SC which can inactivate it occasionally, which can make for a big advantage.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Hehe, I think I mentioned this in my Eriu guide, Sidhe can cast resist elements. Toss in a frost brand of their own and a dragon helm and grin evilly as your opponent gnashes his teeth. They can also cast resist poison and lightning (just not all in the same battle). :mean:

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

I meant to spill the secret after I was killed in Kingmaker, but forgot. Not the first time.

Q: Why is the Eye Shield so amazingly awesome?

A: Because to resist it, you have to pass a MR check against 12.

Q: Whaaaaaaa?

A: :hurt:

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Another fun point:

You can lose an eye simply for attacking that SQUARE. Not even just the unit.

So (my favorite) a trio of human commanders with decent defenses and eye shields can stand down Barbarians. Most of them are completely blinded on the FIRST swing - BEFORE they get to even make their attack roll! ;)

The trick is to make sure they stand together. This trick loses its potency if they separate (less chance to blind the enemy on the first swing AND each commander individually takes more hits, instead of splitting them roughly into thirds).

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Haha, I'm having visions of hoburgs champions...6 of them in a square. Probably not cost effective but funny as hell, until the a single elephant costs you 60N.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Wait, isn't that just saying that the Eye Shield has a penetration bonus of +2? That's nice, but it's nothing a little Antimagic can't handle. Am I misunderstanding your point?

-Max

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Wonder if the eye-loss is checked before or after Awe. Does anybody know?

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

It's checked together. Well, actually Awe is checked first, but if you fail the Awe check and can't attack, you still have to make an eye shield check, and if you fail you lose an eye:

Trying to strike agains Awe 3 (mor 10)
Awe negated attack
hitunit 3498 313 dmg524288 spec4096 ba2
spec_mr pen 12 mr 9 (unr 3498 vic 313 dmg 11 eff 524288)

Same thing goes for gorgon petrification: you can be unable to attack the gorgon because of the Awe, but still get petrified.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

The hilarity of a fear/awe/eyeshield gorgon knows few bounds.

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Although...shouldn't eyeloss protect from Gorgon petrification? (Thematically, not game mechanics wise)

Also - anyone know if Gorgon's petrification stacks w/the Aegis?

Envisioning a DOM10/D10 Gorgon holding Eye Shield + Aegis (or Lantern Shield/Golden Shield if Aegis doesn't stack.) + Helm of Horror. Eep. Not that it'd happen :-)

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Jotun boulders!

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Heh, the gorgon is so effective by herself it seems silly to stack anything on top. Honestly, who cares about eye loss when they're attacking the gorgon? ;)

Re: Possble to resist eye shield?
 

Well it adds yet another layer of defense against non awesome mr stuff. So it doesn't patch up the Gorgon's weakness, but it has a cumulative effect on its strength.