Coastal Artilley
 

Hi
Recently Ive been defending a few coasts and Ive noticed some interesting differences in the OOBs. If you play UK you get to choose between various gun emplacements, one however is outstanding, the 9.2 inch unit 394. which contains weapon 194 "9.2in Coast Gun"
stats are accuracy 60 and HE penetration 14, no AP rating.
Compare it to the Italians unit 389 "Difesa Costiera" containing weapon 194 "305mm Costiera"
stats are accuracy 13 and HE penetration 07, no AP rating.
Note the italian gun is a 12 inch gun.
Now if im not mistaken these guns are designed to sink or at least set on fire from end to end any ship, battle or otherwise that is silly enough to come within range. In-game the British gun can do this the Italian gun can't.
In fact the British 6 inch gun mounted on the Insect class moniter is also better than the Italian 12 inch gun.
Stats for the ship mounted British 6 inch gun are accuracy 30 and AP penetration 10.
See
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNAust_12-45.htm
Note that these guns were removed from dreadnaughts and used as coast defence. The usual practice in this situation is to also remove and install the ships rangefinders. So it would seem to me that the accuracy values for the british 9.2 inch gun is correct and the italian guns value should be increased to match. The Italian gun also fires a AP round so the penetration value is also way too low. (it may be a "naval" AP shell with a fairly high HE content.)
Also the Italian guns may have been mounted in the origional turrets and so would qualiy for 360 degree traverse. (cant remember where I saw those pictures at the moment)

In a similar vein the germans mounted fully traversing 11 inch gun turrets with attendent rangefinders in Scandanavia. See
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_11-545_skc34.htm

German unit 315 "Coastal Fort" has this weapon 104 "17cm K 18" (6.69 inch) with
accuracy 6 and HE penetration 4 no AP rating.
See
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_675-40_skc04.htm
This gun is ex pre-dreadnaught ordinance and again as its there to shoot at ships probably has way to low an accuracy and certainly should have a much better performance against Armour.
and see
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_8-60_skc34.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_59-45_skc16.htm
for other german coastal guns currently not featured in the game.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

I always seen this but i thought it was a design decision to prevent players from killing hordes of tanks and barges without a scratch in their defenses, but i dont know much about naval guns(most coastal arty had naval guns)

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

All naval guns ( weapon class 10 ) are 60 accuracy. All costal guns follow the same pattern as any other land based gun being used by a coastal fort. The "error" is with the Brit gun. The 9.2 is a 46 calibre weapon so should be 12 acc in the game ( 11.5 rounded up to 12 )..and now is.

If you'd bothered to look you would have seen the Brit OOB has "naval" and "costal" versions of some guns and so do the Italians. How exactly did you miss that Italian weapon 194 "305mm Costiera" has a naval version in slot 195 as "305mm Navale ??

Naval guns are "off map" indirect fire weapons. The coastal forts are not and not one "Naval gun" has an AP pen.



Don

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

i still cant understand the reason of the HE penetration 14 on the brit 9.2in

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

That's a typo as well. It should be 5. It was the one weapon missed the last time we checked those type of guns


Don

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

Hi Don
The difference between a coastal gun and "any other land based gun" is this, the coastal gun has a big fat naval type rangefinder and naval type gunnery control centre, a ships "bridge/conning tower" on land.
This allows them to successfully engage ships far out to sea which a normal land based gun cannot.
So treating coastal guns(`150mm and above) and land based guns the same doesnt take this into account.
It would appear for Germany at least that pretty much any battery of guns over 150mm in a coastal defence role had a quality rangefinder and probably a control centre.
See,
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60...1_p2_13_gb.htm
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60...1_p2_03_gb.htm
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60...1_p2_01_gb.htm
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60...1_p2_06_gb.htm
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60...1_p2_05_gb.htm
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60...1_p2_04_gb.htm
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60...1_p2_14_gb.htm
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60...1_p2_22_gb.htm
and it is of course ludicrous to suggest that the italian 12 inch gun is mounted as coast defence without similar accessory equipment.

From
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60...sto1_p1_gb.htm
"more than forty guns of a calibre ranging from 105 to 240 mm(~9inch)"along a "30-kilometre stretch of sea front" resulted in this, "The Allied fleet, however, which had started bombarding Cherbourg during the attack, was kept at bay by the heavy coastal batteries."
Exactly the opposite is modeled in your game as shown by the comparison of the insect gunboat (accurate and AP round) to the Italian 12 inch coastal gun (inaccurate and AP round removed).
Is the reason the coastal guns have their AP removed because the indirect fire naval artillery has none? because if so it certainly gives the enemies on-board flotilla and landing craft an easy ride in The unrealistic combination of the coastal guns low accurracy and no AP means even if you hit anything you cant sink it.
As a rough guide assuming the insect gunboat has a rangefinder and that its accurracy of 30 isnt another typo then 30 could be considered it as a guide to what the coastal guns accuracy should be. As a shore based gun isnt moving, pitching, yawing or rolling the shore guns accuracy should be something better.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

--SNIP




Do tell Chuck ------exactly how many of the "naval gun" units in the game which have weapons with 60 accuracy have rangefinder and firecontrol ratings above zero ? That is all units in the game like the Italian "Art Navale" or the US or Japanese "XXin Naval Gun" or the German "XXXmm Naval gun"

Hmmm ??

Do a nice long exhaustive check and get back to me on that. Take all the time you need.

Just as a reminder the question is ---- how many of those units with a weapon class 10 weapon ( Naval Artillery ) given 60 accuracy have rangefinder and firecontrol ratings above zero ?

Once you're done that for me go and check the rangefinder and firecontrol ratings of the costal forts and tell me what you find. Take your time with that. I don't want to hear from you again until you have an answer that isn't based on faulty theory or assumption

And yes, the 30 accuracy given to the 6 inch "naval gun" used by the insect class GB is an error. It should have the same accuracy as the 5 inch naval gun in weapon slot 188 ( 10 )

Congratulations, for all that you found two ( 2 ) really insignificant errors

Oh and when you're checking all those costal guns for RF and FC and you get to the Italian ( both Italy and RSI ) the "Art Costiera" you find with a 52 FC is wrong as well and has been corrected in the master

Don

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

:doh::eek::hurt::angel LOL Please don't take this in other than the humour intended!!!

Tell this to the poor souls of my Landing Flotilla who perished under the 9inch Guns of Gibraltar !!!:re::doh::doh:

NOW I don't feel so bad, although this operation was a comedy of errors!!

Bob out:D

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

Better stay away from the shores of Italy then because the 52 Firecontrol of that one Italian emplacment is somewhat more significant than the 60 accuracy of the 9.2 inch gun

Don

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

It was the 14 pen that did all my escort in, 5 pen would have made a big difference!! LOL

Bob out:D

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

HI Don
Can I say great to be working for you on this one.
Couple of Questions before I get stuck in,
Why do you want me to check that all indirect fire class 10 Naval guns with accuracy of 60 have firecontrol and Rangefinder values of 0?

Before I look at Coastal guns could you give me some definitions? heres mine see how yours compare(as they relate to coastal guns).
Accuracy; the muzzle velocity of the gun.
Rangefinder; Value determined by the presence and use of some type of rangefinding device (0 for none?)
Firecontrol; Quality of the optics, for tanks etc but for coastal guns maybe use of bracketing by guns in the same battery, use of naval type target predictors and radars might be relevant?

Ive had a look around to give myself a bit of background on RA nd FC values before I dig into the OOB's, heres what Ive found so far thats relevant to the two guns Ive used as examples.

http://www.museumscenterhanstholm.dk...es_1945/_PRINT
"Battery Hanstholm 1, four 17 cm guns, emplaced in 1941. Manned by 1/118 MAA. Casemated, field of fire 335o to 235o. Range 28,000 yards. Two searchlights, radar set. Old German guns (1902) from ships. Eleven-meter range finder"
Now the 88 with a 1m Rangefinder gets a rangefinder value of 8 so do you think the 17cm guns 11m rangefinder value of 6 looks a little low? and Maybe the Firecontrol of 6 looks low also as the gun may have a radar in attendance as well.
Search the article with "range finder" Youll find that nearly all the largere calibre guns have a large naval type rangefinder in attendance.
For the iItalians I found this,
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Telemeter_Range-Finder
"For naval and harbour defence purposes the Barr and Stroud range-finder is very largely used throughout the world. In Italy a Barr and Stroud instrument, with the large base of 5 metres, was in 1908 under trial for coast artillery.
So in all likelyhood the 305mm gun had at least a 5m rangefinder, again the current rangefinder value of 6 may be a little low.

One last thing before I begin, could you please tell us why AP rounds have been removed from the coastal guns in-game?
Thanks in advance Chuck.

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

Chuck

You're not "working" with me on this one. I'm done with this as of now. I have quite enough to do with the MBT upgrade. The errors that were initially found have been fixed and MBT has been checked to ensure none existed there either. I have corrected any land based unit and ON MAP naval vessel that used a "Naval" weapon with 60 accuracy and there were less than a handful that qualified . Things like the Japanese "150mm Gun Empl" still use a "Naval gun" but that one is, and always has been, set up with the correct accuracy for a land based gun.

The reason I wanted you to check all indirect fire class 10 Naval guns with accuracy of 60 have firecontrol and Rangefinder values of 0 is had you done that first before running to the forum with this complaint you would know that NONE of the indirect fire class 10 Naval guns with accuracy of 60 HAVE firecontrol and Rangefinder values other than zero. For naval guns firing off map this IS their firecontrol and Rangefinder. It's a "game thing" to simulate FC and RF in naval vessels and it's applied equally to all. Check away for your own info. I already know the answer. You wasted a lot of effort trying to convince me to make changes to the OOB's based on two of the units that were in error.

"Coastal guns" are the ones named "Coastal guns" or used in forts specifically named that way like the Italian "Art Costiera" or the Greek "Coastal Defence" or the German "Coastal Fort". ALL have RF and FC and none ( now ) use a "naval gun" with 60 accuracy . The 60 accuracy is reserved exclusively for off map weapons simulating naval gunfire

The coastal guns as a rule have the AP removed because with it they are too deadly on LC with it. It's a "playability vs Realism" issue. naval vessels, and LC fall into that category, are treated like vehicles but whereas a vehicle may be destroyed with one shot naval vessels rarely are and giving something like the Brit 9.2 or the German 17cm AP makes them too deadly on LC do the decision was made long ago not to give them AP and none do. You can plink away at LC with the AT guns used in bunkers. They have AP but we have to give them AP because they are primarily "land based" as is the game in general.

Don

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

Hi Don
Well I reaslise that my posts are an unwelcome distraction from whatever it is you are trying to do for the game at the moment, sorry for that. But if you do have the inclination in the future, could I suggest that the best solution would be to use a redundant class to create a new class "naval vessels". Maybe this would then allow you to give the boats the correct "unsinkable" but take plenty casualties qualities of a real vessel? Then the various coastal guns can have the correct rangefinder, fire control values and AP shells as well as modeling the effects of indirect fires and AT round fire on barges etc better.
Dont forget no navy attacked any large calibre coastal guns throughout the entire war precisely because such guns are so deadly against ships
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

These large calibre coastal guns with the naval range finders and firecontrol.......... what was their primary target Chuck ?

It's a simple answer so keep it short

Don

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

Ships

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

Yes Ships

Naval warships to be exact. Any big ship really. You don't plink at LC's with 12 inch guns. The ships that carry the LC you would but that is beyond the scope of the game

Do you see any large naval vessels/ warships in the game ??

Answer.. no. Not the kind ships the 12 inch gun in the Difesa Costiera fort was meant to deal with. Patrol boats and the like don't count. What those guns are meant to deal with are what we class as off map targets but these are on map assets and on map assets cannot shoot at off map targets. To use the guns the way you envision they are designed to be used with all the naval RF and FC should mean these are made off map artillery to engage the naval "guns" the player doing the beach landing bought. But the game doesn't work like that. Off map guns do not use RF and FC and on map LR artillery cannot engage off map guns and there is no mechanism in the game to get into CB fire with naval guns and we have no intention of adding any.

So really those units should be pulled but I'd get more people complaining if I did. There are things in this game we have added over time because others thought it a wonderful idea to do so. Costal/River naval craft and large calibre coastal batteries are two of them I personally could have lived without. Just keep in mind those big guns wouldn't be used to fire at LC over open sights so use the smaller guns that have the AP to defend the beach against the LC and leave those big forts for decorations in sceanrios


Don

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

Why not must pull them? You guys define the scope of game so if it's beyond that scope, that's all there is to it. The river boats could go, also, IMO. It was designed as a top down, turn based, tactical recreation of land warfare, correct? There might be rare instances where such units did were involved during the war, but was it significant enough to warrant inclusion. Even in WinSPMBT, how often did the "Brown Water Navy" get tied up in company/battalion land battles in Vietnam?

With respect to the 12in Italian guns, first would any right minded force attack where they were present without neutralizing them first? It's not like they can be hidden that well. If their intent was to engage enemy warships, transports, etc., I question whether they would be capable of being depressed low enough to even engage a landing craft. With any fortification, if it was originally intended as anti-shipping, it doesn't seem like it should be in the game.

So, Don, Andy, when are you going to draw the line and say, "This is it" and move on to the next project?

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

The only reason I can see for there original inclusion & hence the restrictions placed on them is so scenario designers could have targets for just such purposes. Air drops on Norways coastal forts etc.
Probably as the works been done they may as well stay but agree there is no need to pamper to everyones requests if people want stuff that plays no real purpose in the game like tank transporters for a specific rare situation they can build them in the OOB editor.
Updating combat units as new info becomes available & sweeping changes like those in the recent patch are what impact on the game & I thank you for them.
The little things you have provided me the tools to implement myself

Re: Coastal Artilley
 

Hi Don
By all means pull the Italian 12 inch gun, but there -are- relevant (ie large) targets for it to hit in the OOBs,
the British OOB for example has these vessels
Unit 508 "Merchant Marine" size 8, probably much larger than 8.
Unit 515 "Coast guard" size 17; 5" gun, (cant find out what this is supposed to be.)
Unit 514 "Insect class" size 17; 2 * 6" guns, Length : 72 m Width : 11 m
Unit 513"Patrol boat" size 12; 4" gun, (armed trawler?) Length : 45 m Width : 7 m
from
http://members.lycos.co.uk/Indochine...boats.html#LCG

Unit 102 "LCG (M)(1)25lbr" size 12; 2 * 25 pdrs, Length : 47.08 m Width : 6.91 m
Unit 103 "LCG (M)(1)17lbr" size 12; 2 * 17pdrs, Length : 47.08 m Width : 6.91 m
Unit 101 "LC(R)" size 6; 160 4.6" rockets, (Length : 47.08 m Width : 6.91 m?) (should maybe be size 12 also?)
As a comparison in the USA OOB
Unit 745 "LCM" size 6 (USA) Length : 13.6 m Width : 4.27 m
seems to have the correct picture and looks a big enough target for a 12 inch gun, to me anyway, and is a lot smaller than the example vessels in the british OOB.

I understand your reasoning but as the coastal artillery cant fire at the battleships ect, wouldnt it be reasonable that they plink away at these sizable targets instead? I mean if you think the landing force is going to have your guts for garters then maybe you would be tempted to shoot even at those small but very slow very thin shelled landing craft, maybe you could put short fuses in your shells and get them to explode rather than just leave a big hole.
But thats the 12 inch gun.
What about coastal guns like the jap 150mm and german 170mm? surely these would be happy to shoot at landing craft?

All the small coastal guns are impudent because without AP shells British units like 515, 514, 513, 102 and 103 seriously outgun them, which is the reverse of reality. I dont know about the german 170mm but I imagine some of the Jap 150mm saw action.
So really -all- the coastal guns whithout AP rounds are just senario decorations and should be pulled.
From
http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=72
"At about 0900 in the morning of 20 Nov 1943, Marines boarded the Higgins landing crafts and started for Betio. At 0441, the Japanese coastal guns opened fire"
So would it be possible to give the smaller coastal guns their AP? After all they are largely ex naval ordinance and do have AP rounds.
Best Regards Chuck.