Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

It has occured to me that when discussing long campaign forces we generally talk about how much infsntry we picked, but never about what kind, at least not to the degree that we mention what they do. IOW, what do you desire them to carry into battle?

For my part, if I can get it, I like to reflect in my infantry, just what my entire core force represents, a force which can at least handle anything the AI can throw up against it. What this means, for me, is that generally they not only have some sort of LMG, but also have a dependable anti-tank weapon. If that anti-tank weapon can also double for being very useful against infantry, such as flamethrowers, so much the better. I also like the team to have "2" LMG's if possible, but this is very rare. The German Brandenburgers, for example, have 2 LMG's and they can be quite devastating at times. You're talking a mere 3 unit platoon with the LMG firepower of double their size and their satchel charge equipment makes them very hard to beat. Their being elite isn't terribly important to me, however it's another factor that helps in their effectiveness, but they are terribly expensive. The Brandenburgers, like a lot of infantry types also have a lot of weapons versatility, for example, they could use sniper rifles as their 4th weapon slot instead of satchel charges if you wanted to.

You will see something of the extremes in my force. I will carry the absolute best German infantry in the Brandenburgers, but also the worst which are the Schgerungs or whatever they're called. The same goes for equipment the forces will carry. I don't think it makes for terribly interesting play if my entire force is equipped to the hilt, so some won't have the best equipment just for some struggling sake.

So my core infantry basically consists of 2-4 basic or worse infantry, 2 engineer platoons (one platoon with flamethrowers, the other more anti-infantry, with 2 rifles per squad), 1-2 elite infantry (in the German sense 1 Brandenburger and 1 SS inf platoons [possibly substituting mountain, ski, or pnzrgrndr for SS]). I don't think mentioning scouts, unless one "fights" with them a great deal, is really worthy of discussion here.

Also, I almost never will have them equipped with whatever grenade launcher they may have available. Not only because I don't have much call for using them due to their lack of range (I fight quite a lot of battles either VERY close or far, such that the intermediate range fo the grenade launcher is hardly ever used) but also because they're not very effective, though for what little I have used them in the latest campaign, they do seem fairly effective. The fact that grenade launchers are often in the 3rd or 4th weapons slot aften makes them fairly useless as well, just because if you are close enough to use them, then a good deal of the time the target is lost before that weapon fires, due to the prior guns knocking the target into retreat.

So my ideal infantry, not that I would equip them all that way anyway, would be 1 rifle, 2 LMG's, and a flamthrower. Later, it's probably better to substitute 1 LMG for a bazooka type weapon, but for the units I want to be equipped to the hilt, that is my idea of their best equipment.

One last little thing about engineers. I'm not too sure what every country carries, but most (excepting the USSR marine engineers) engineers don't come with LMG's, so you suffer generally against infantry with engineers, however, in the German case anyway, they can come with one unit that has 3 LMG's, largely making up for the lack of anti-personnal ability in the platoon.

I also will carry a sniper; the best I can get. I would be curious to hear if people who use sniper rifles in regular infantry, which are usually in the 4th weapon slot, have much success with them, at least more than you typically get out of an LMG. They at least would extend infantry range, but they don't have half the effectiveness of the really concentrated sniper unit, due to not having the fire control and range finder ratings of any worth.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

Interesting question.
I use infantry in support for my amour, not the other way around.
But that’s because I’m a tanker, I prefer tanks and supporting armored vehicles.
I like to play big battles in my campaign, with a full core, most of the time I have a core of 200. Playing SPWW2 I have up to between 10-15000 points.
Since I have fewer Infantry units; I pick elite units.
I also use SS in my panzer units.

As an example, I can go through the long campaign I’m playing now.
It’s Germany vs. USA/GB/Canada, June 44-May 45.

I always choose company formations, but I reduce them in size.
The reason is to have a chain of command, when it comes to rallying my troops.
1 company consisting of 2 platoons of Panthers, 1 company consisting of 1 platoon of Tiger, and 1 company consisting of 1 platoon of Tiger II.
Each platoon carries 1 platoon of Brandenburgers mounted on vehicle. These will supply close combat support to my tanks in built up areas or in areas with dense vegetation.

I will have 1 coy of Stug and Stuh, with 2 platoons of Stug and 1 Stuh, in support they will have 3 to 4 platoons of SS Panzergrenadiers mounted on Sdkfz 251/1, but here I choose my platoon without the Sdkfz, and buy them in the misc section. That way they are independent from my troops.

My third formation if you will it’s the Pionier, here I also go for a crack formation like the FJg, and I also mount these units on 251/1. In support I pick 2 to 4 flamethrowers and a section or platoon of Stuh. Since these units also play a defensive role in my play, I may support them with 2 to 3 AT guns or 2 jagdpanzers.

Other formations are recon forces mounted on 251/1, SPAA, SPA, ammunition vehicles and arty off board.

Sometimes I have a fire brigade also, existing of a mixed formation of tanks and infantry.

This game, which I have described here, is for pure fun, sometimes I play it as realistic as possible.

I remember many years ago, playing SPII, I built up my former armored battalion with its supporting elements in defense against a Russia motorized infantry regiment, all by the book. I stopped them, but it was an expensive battle. Back then, we didn’t have the Leopard 2 MBT, but the Leopard 1 with its 105mm, and we didn’t have the CV9030N IFV with its 30mm cannon, but the NM135 (built on the M113 APC) with 20mm cannon.
It was my NM142 TOW (built on the M113 chassis also) and ground mounted TOW units that saved me from the hordes of T-72 and T-80 MBTs.

I guess this was maybe a little bit outside your question, but I had to put my choices in a context.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

Thanks for your response. I guess there were two main things I was looking for a)what sort of infantry people get, and, more importantly b)what do people equip them with. That's why I described in some detail what I want mine equipped with, such as how many LMG's, grenade launchers, mortars, flamethrowers, what have you.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

I personally like heavy infantry, something like slots: 1.rifle 2.SAW/BAR/LMG 3.Hand/rifle Grenade(GL or mortar maybe?) 4.satchel, flamer, rocket, bazooka...whatever is heavy enough to blow tanks and bunkers with,EDIT: HA! MOLOTOV! it rocks tanks

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

So that's your ideal unit? You wouldn't rather get another LMG in slot 3 if possible? I guess that's pretty much what your 12-13 man squad consists of, one rifle and one LMG, although even those can be different, like the SMG units having SMG instead of rifle, but your main area of choice ends up being usually in slots 3 and 4.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

U.S. Army: FSSF
12 men, commando type

Weapon:
M1 Rifle (semi-auto)
3 BARs
Bazooka
Flame

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

Sounds really good. How about before the bazooka was available?

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

well, another LMG slot would make units lack heavy weapons, like satchels, because usually they are given Hand grenades, it would be like,a 12 man squad would pack, 10 rifles, 1 smg or 2 LMGs, hand grenades for everyone, filling the 4 slots
Hand grenade perhaps?

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

Well in that case, I look for one thing.
Do those in at least one of their slots have a weapon that could knock out a tank?

The rest of the slots are, do they have enough punch to decimate an infantry unit.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

GLs, mortars and flamers can knock out tanks, (HE pen of at least 1 CAN penetrate tankettes and most italian early war armor)

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

[/quote]
GLs, mortars and flamers can knock out tanks, (HE pen of at least 1 CAN penetrate tankettes and most italian early war armor)[/quote]

Yepp.
What I really would like to have the capability to do. Is to have some options to choose the armament for my infantry myself.

The need for different weapons can vary from time to time, dependent of the mission you want them to have.

But my guess is that this would take a lot of time to get in to the game.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

That's how I look at it early in the war as well (though you often can't get any weapons that are really anti-tank capable early on), but later, you're probably better off with slot 3 being as a ranged anti-tank weapon like a bazooka. So you would half for tanks and half for infantry. I guess, if it were possible, to have a bazooka type weapon as your lone anti-tank weapon, that might be sufficient, since it is ranged to some degree.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

From what I have seen, unless you're talking about scouts or a unit with not all the slots used, you won't see satchel charges in slot 3, so you wouldn't have any choice there if true. I have always seen, on units with all the slots used, the satchel charges in slot 4.

Slot 3, from what I have seen, is "usually" another anti-personnel weapon (again, for units with all the slots used). I'm pretty sure I have seen infantry with two anti-tank weapons, but it is really rare. I believe the only units I have seen with 2 anti-tank slots were engineers. Come to think of it, I can't recall any non-engineer units having flamethrowers available so your best anti-tank, at least the short range assault variety, seem pretty much just engineer and elite units territory. One pioneer SS unit actually has three slots for anti-tank (all range 1).

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

It depends on the GL, of course, but AFAIK there are no dependable mortars or grenade launchers intrinsic to an infantry type squad, that knock out a tank enough to count on it. I have been through 2 battles against the Polish GL's, maybe having tanks hit between 50-100 times, and not a scratch. It's only the armored cars and half-tracks that have anything resembling consistent trouble from them. Needless to say, if the GL firer were on a hill, he might have some damage hitting a top portion of a tank. They're just entirely too unreliable in anything but the very lightest armor to think of them as being anti-tank.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

My current soviet campaign has:

2 companies of soviet infantry. I upgraded them to SVT rifles when they became available, and dual hand grenade slots. Weak against tanks but they do okay, and they are usually close to my armour anyways.
2 platoons of engineers originally, but I realized that I rarely use them for anything engineer'ish, so exchanged them for SMG troops to send around the flanks. I can always buy engineers as support if needed.
Then 4 units of scouts and 4 snipers. I absolutely love snipers. Very effective for pinning down an entire platoon in many cases.

I tend to focus on well equipped infantry but I rarely buy elite types, unless thats the focus of my campaign.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

Elite troops are at least interesting in that over a period of time you can find out if they make any significant difference. I have found out that the Brandenburgers having 2 LMG's can be quite devastating at times.

I don't know, but I think at least having some engineers in core is pretty essential, because for the early portions of the war they represent the only real infantry threat to anything resembling a medium tank. Of course if one gets them shot up all the time just fighting regular infantry, where they're generally weaker, having them in core probably won't matter too much.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

Thats true, though I've been able to just stick around the tanks so far. Im a big fan of having the infantry stack in the same hex, as it seems to make a lot of fire bounce off the tank.

Of course, I tend to get impetous, so I'll send a tank platoon off to do something, only to be blown up by hidden enemy infantry

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

This could also be a bit gamey.

In practice, your average WWII infantry company is not likely to cart with it a truckload of spare weapons, so that they could optimise their armament for a particular battle.

Getting some satchel charges for a bunker-busting mission would be a possibility, though. But these tend to be abundant enough in many forces as they are.

Mechanised forces could be a bit more lucky, since they would have some spare transport capacity in their halftracks - though after fitting in a dozen men and their gear, it might not have been too much. There could be still the option to dismount the MG and take the bazooka/panzershreck allocated to the vehicle.

Griefbringer

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

When it comes to infantry, I've had to grow into it. I used to be a hardcore tanker (25+ AFV vers 12-15 infantry squads), but I've learned a little more about tactics since that time and have since reversed my force make up. I also turn the tank heavy off.

My personal preference is for infantry that can do a variety of tasks.

I'm with Ironfist here. Not only can the FSSF engage infantry at range with devestating results, they can do it a point blank range as well with the flamer and engage tanks at short range or up close. But only good if your playing the US and only historicly accurate in small numbers.

Brandenburgs are another personal favorite for tank support, but I don't like the lack of "boom" the duel LMGs have. Best when you can get them with satchel charges. They do make the perfect tank rider though, since they can keep infantry, ATGs and other tank deterunts at bay even if the tank gets a little ways ahead. However, they're in the same boat with the FSSF, historicly accurate in small numbers.

I didn't use to be one for historicly accurate battle, but I'm finding it more a challange and consiquently, more educational. My basic guidlines now are to find infantry with a good rifles or lmgs, one explosive for close up work (I like to get close when I can) and an anti-tank weapon. As far as engineers go, I really like the boom they provide but know that I have to limit their use to areas when they can get in close and personal. I really like the platoons that have an mg or at team attached, as it provides more versitility within the group.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

They were only available between Jul. 43 to Dec. 44. Born with bazooka.
Another type of FSSF section has 60mm mortar and satchel charge in slot 3 & 4, respectively.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

I don't know if the game adjustment for assaults is to blame or not, but I do notice a very high rate of failed assaults (at least when compared to how they were before - I do agree, BTW, that it was too high before, but just going over this as early Germany, it seems the fail rate is too high now IMO). What that means for my strategy is that it may well turn out that even with the germans, having a flamethrower may be of little use if the blasted assault fails at that high a rate. Naturally, you would expect that as my troops get into the 80's and beyobd that problem will diminish largely, but I'm pretty sure that even then you are better off with ranged weapons overall. IOW, as the fail rate stands, I would rather have a panzerfaust than a flamethrower; even at range one.

What I am considering is that the ranged AT weapons don't have to pass an assault check, even for very near distance. In the early years, you really don't have any ranged AT weapons worthy of respect for anything medium-sized or better, so you're stuck until then.

As far as the Brandenburgers go, if I read you correctly you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I cannot get B's with both satchel charges -and- two LMG's. No, that's the very thing that attracted me to them, that they are so solid in both anti-personnel and anti-tank useage. I'm not too sure of the B's later available kit, but it might be a good odea to substitute one LMG for a pnzrfst, but I certainly wouldn't substitute an LMG for another weapon that has to pass an assault check.

As far as making an army of specialists go, as has so often been my theme, my force compromises also of those less than adequate, to sort of make up for some of the specializations, such as the that one lot of infantry for Gerry which is like minus five in both exp/mor.

Yes, I do think it is something of a waste of time to play a force which really has no weaknesses, and that becomes ever more profound if we find ourselves picking every infantry unit with AT assault weaponary all the time. So you have your uber-units, the Brandenburgers and such, your regular troops, and then maybe a few less than adequate troops; all choices made in order to add something of a real world flavor. What this amounts to, is sort of fighting with 2-3 small armies at the same time, as you will get that much of a variance between them.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

Charles 22,

I appreciate your comments! I'm sorry about the Bs. I do know that you can get them with shatchels, and I think that's the best configuation.

I don't mean to bash the use of specializations as I enjoyed a series of battles with US rangers and FSSF on a 20X20 map. I do like your idea of taking some infiorer units to compensate. I'll probably start doing that as well. It's a good idea.

You make a very good point in your last paragraph. Thanks for the material to think on.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

Good day all.

When playing the AI as the Germans, usually SS Troops and I like Motorcycle Troops as well usually as my vanguard. Weapons wise, especially early in the war, I'm more concerned they have good LMG's and MMG's in the Kompanie mix. I try to leave to Anti-tank work to the Panzers. As well in the early stages a good stock of grenades still makes infantry assaults against some armour likely to have a good result, if put in or found in that situation.

PBEM causes me to look more carefully at the infantry I choose. The differences in national troops alone, makes this paramount.
In common is LMG and MMG factor, and striving to make the force real enough that such a force could have fought or would have been desirable!! Timeframe is a big factor here as well as early war troops in some countries were not as good as they look formed up on the parade square before a battle!!! ;)

Bob out:D

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

It is somewhat fascinating Bob, that in your desire for LMG's, and your desire for SS, that these should conflict. The general early SS, doesn't have the best early LMG (mg34). I think the basic SS get mg42's when they come along, but some of them don't get mg34's in the early years. I think only the CO unit gets any mg34's. Most of the early year's SS get some inferior LMG.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

Thank you. I think you can see where I'm coming from. It is perhaps the most important outlook that drives how I play. That is, in order to make things more interesting, you play with a force around the default points size to start with, play on a map that many would say is too large for it, and have what amounts to seperate formations.

So every formation has at one time or another to fight on it's own, instead of everything just being one whole collective blob. So while you have very strong units, you also have some weak ones. The whole general idea is to make one battle, or one campaign, seem like many, because there are many different problems with many different answers. I have both the ability to dominate and also to have to withdraw or fight as best as possible until help arrives.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

I have very infantry heavy core forces when I play. Right now I am playing a late-war long campaign in Italy with a GebirgsJaeger force. The only armor I am using are 251's to transport my ATG and AAA units since trucks are such deathtraps. I find that when playing infantry units, a 12-13 man unit is the best because of staying power and a better chance to save them to gain experience.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

I prefer crack hardcore units like I mentioned earlier, but I can see the enjoyment in having units of mixed standard, like your hardcore units in the frontline, and some more inexperienced units as support, or security.

But I compensate having my SS or Brandenburgers (ore other hardcore units as FJ, or GB) to the lack of numbers.
My enemy always has more of everything.

For me, that’s the edge :fire:.

What’s important here is the fun factor.
If your thing is to have 3 coys of Tiger II tanks against 10 coys of early Sherman’s just to blow thing up, that’s great :first:.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

Yes, at least there's some compensation for having better troops other than the obvious. It can get to be a problem over a long haul with a VERY large force, because I was explaining to somebody some time ago, in so doing you would deny the enemy that may had used hordes tactics from doing just that, just because you may have so many units he cannot exceed your own by very much. I don't think most of us play with that large a force though, and I can only guess whather the default points would allow that to happen later on, assuming you didn't add to the core later. Perhaps the USSR is the only nation that I would venture to guess could start by filling out the default points and then have too many units for what I spoke of.

If you bother to equip the USSR that high from the beginning, you really do have a horde yourself and down the line run into the problems I anticipate. That at least can be explained away somewhat, as who could had out-horded the USSR later in the war? Germany could do it at points of attack in the first couple of years, but I would think having somewhere around 150 units or so that they could muster ingame with the default points, wouldn't be a problem until then.

When I campaign USSR, I wouldn't dream of using 3000pts. I think I'm more around 2500 when I get my general 90-110 units. If you start off in Finland instead of Poland, I think by then at least one of the KV's is available, which can soak off some points.

As far as I can remember, winSPWW2 was the first game that allowed the USSR to start a campaign in Poland; for better or worse.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

m113apc: There is one problem with those elite Tigers fighting those Shermans though. It's not 'just' the units themselves, but also their experience we are speaking of, of course. So while that scenario might sound not that bad, you have to remember that in terms of LC play, you are probably talking most of the Tigers being uber-elite, while the Shermans have probably half the experience, since they are AI Shermans.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

My idea of the best infantry squad would have the 1st weapon as "SMG"(range 2-5) 2nd weapon as "LMG" (range 10-12) 3rd weapon "LMG", 4th weapon as AT, something effective, with at least 5 range.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

I have never seen an SMG which went over range 3. The winSPWW2 rifles are quite good, and often hit even at the maximum range of 10 in the better circumstances. As far as slot 4 goes though the AT weapon being that range may be next to impossible on an actual full unit (a 2 or 6 man unit wouldn't be full). Taking the Germans for example, you have in the later war both the panzershreck and panzerfaust. The faust has only range two, while the shreck has a range of six. The problem is, I don't think you can get the shreck with a full unit. As well, the ATR of the early years is so ineffectual that it's almost worthless.

In my view slot four is almost a throwaway for anything worthwhile that is AT and ranged (though pnzrfst's only go out to range 2, they are very good). Slot four often seems just as useless when getting much good for anti-personnel purposes (though an unrated sniper rifle may still produce good results, but I don't know, having not tried them there before). In general fighting though, slot four is often not terribly necessary for anti-personnel purposes, because usually the waepons 1-3 will knock the target into a retreat, thereby eliminating slot 4 from firing that one chance. So what I find generally most useful for slot 4 would be an AT weapon of any sort. Ranged would be better, but so much of the war has to be fought with those awful ATR's that it's probably better to have a very effective close range weapon there, if possibke, that is, if you can assume that the close range AT weapon is of much use anymore, given what I said earlier about a too high fail rate.

When you think about it, having a short range weapon there, could be quite disturbing for your own side, as it seems a very easy way too pick up instant high suppression especially bad for the defensive fighting. Perhaps the studious player would be better off disabling these weapons until they're needed during the player turn where they can be rallied? It looks to me as though I'm seeing like a two-thirds failure rate or better with the starting German engineers and that's way too high to be of any use defensively. It might not be until pnzrfsts, and considerably higher experience can be found, that slot 4 is of much use in the AT role unfortunately.

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

The weapon I was talking about was an M4 which is classed as a SMG, Thats why I said I wanted a SMG with a range of 2-5. Because I wasn't sure if the the range is just 4 or 5 and since I haven't seen an SMG with higher range thats what I put down. As for the AT slot a full squad for example can carry an RPG with range 10, happens all the time.

Lastly I'm very sorry for bothering you guys! I am an idiot! This is WWII and here I am posting like its a winSPMBT thread:fish:

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

I have a question, For my Long Pbem campaign I want some good Russian core infantery which is quite fast through wood and other difficult terrain.
Should I choose Partisans or Mountain infantery of Guard or something else?

The main purpose is to be legged infantery (no transports) and be fast enough to outmanoever German infantery in difficult terrain.

Greetings

Re: Infantry - What Do You pick?
 

If it tends to be wooded terrain (thus providing masking from direct fire) - then buy some Cossacks and keep them in close support behind the riflemen. Then when you need to break out and exploit, or run down routers you release the "horsemen of the apocalypse!" :horse:

(this tactic can work with motorcyclists too, it is a late Roman one - they had lighter armoured troops called "runners out" or Excubitores (sp) who would rush out from the rear rank to hack up any retreaters recoiling from the battle line)

Andy