Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

This more or less simply version 1.4 with some minor bug and typo fixes. Feel free to use either 1.4 thread for suggestion/comment purposes.

Edit: zip replaced by llamabeast on 29th March with permission from QM, making changes to
(a) Make compatible with llamaserver, and
(b) Fix blindlord bug

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.4
 

Split version.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

there is no bigger joy on dom3 than playing with a fresh, new, shiny Conceptual Balance Mod :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

tnxqm!!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

What's the difference between the normal one and the split one?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

The split version is if you only want certain elements of the CBM choosing from modified pretenders, items, spells, nations or scales

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

QM -- as I recall, there were some nations that were not yet kitted out with full hero compliment.

Not that I want to give ashdod, and company a boost.
But do you know the status of nations missing?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Ashdod has three "Son of Anak" heroes, the three ancestors to the Ahiman, Sheshai & Talmai clans.
Hinnom has 6 "Son of [Grigori]" Nephilim multiheroes who have 4 in a main path and 3 in blood, besides otherwise being SC material.

I don't know about Gath, don't they have any heroes?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

The LlamaServer isn't able to start games with CBM 1.41, as given. It turns out that the problem is with the spells Bind Spine Devils and Bind Serpent Fiends. It throws the error:

Loading spells: CBcomplete_1.41.dm
name2spell Bind Spine Devil
N�got gick fel!
name2spell: no such spell!!
N�got gick fel!
name2spell: no such spell!!

I think the reason is that the spells change their own name. Maybe for some reason it reads the mod twice, and the second time can't cope. Anyway, I've fixed it. Instead of changing the spells, it seems you have to copy them, change the copies and simply make the original spells unresearchable. I've changed the copy on the LlamaServer and I think perhaps it won't matter for client machines, but if you could use the modified code in the next version that'd be great.

Here's my fixed version:

--
#newspell
#copyspell "Bind Spine Devil"
#name "Bind Spine Devils"
#fatiguecost 800
#nreff 3
#descr "The caster sacrifices several blood slaves to contact and bind three Spine Devils. Spine Devils are spine covered, wingless demons that fight with t\
wo venomous claws. The spines covering their bodies are poisonous and anyone attacking them with short weapons may get poisoned."
#end

#selectspell "Bind Spine Devil"
#school -1
#end

#newspell
#copyspell "Bind Serpent Fiend"
#name "Bind Serpent Fiends"
#nreff 2
#descr "The caster sacrifices several blood slaves to contact and bind two Serpent Fiends. Serpent Fiends are bat-winged, serpent-like demons summoned from \
the Abyss. Their bite is highly venomous."
#end

#selectspell "Bind Serpent Fiend"
#school -1
#end
--

Also, what were your thoughts on including Endo's Mark of the Champion mod in the next version of CBM?

Thanks for all your work QM!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Late Age Agartha has Blindlords with Air 8.

Dunno whether this is intentional or not.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

They shouldn't have old age either. And I am sure air 8 is not intentional :) I think that QM wanted to give them Holy 1 so they could effectively lead blindfighters.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Air 8 seems potentially unbalancing. :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Obviously it's meant to be Air 8. Agartha needs the boost and it makes perfect thematic sense.

What are you people stupid?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I somewhat agree with Sombre, air 3 or 8 hardly makes a difference anyway and it's CLEAR they deserve at least air 3.. so why not go all the way then.. it's different, no other nation has it yet (while air 3 is seen way to often)

it's got my OK.

LLama balance is relative anyway :D

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

You're right, I'm humbled.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

For 60 gold air 8 is perfectly reasonable... :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Can the skratti no upkeep bug be fixed by adding a cost to the second form?

If not, can we perhaps eliminate one of the forms, or combine the forms into one - perhaps the human form with full paths, and a stealthy werewolf form with reduced paths.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Yes Chris, it can.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

two forms would be much more useful, that third form with the way shapechanging works is a real pain.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I'm just glad confusion was nerfed. that spell allowed about 10 cheap-*** air mages to slaughter an army of 400 dai bakemono.

it still looks a bit scary th0ough, but the A2 will at least mean that the cheapest mages can't use its overwhelming potential

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

It's A3 in Vanilla, I had ultimately call A2 a buff still ;)
Summon Storm Power is just A1, so it will still be available for all air mages to cast with some preparation.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I was playing MA Ulm (as always) with CBM and suddenly I notice that I only build pikeneers. Why? With the CBM change to the pikeneer, it makes all the other infantry practically meaningless. Let's take a look:

Before CBM:
Standard pikeneer
Pike
Damage 5
Attack 1
Defense -1
Length 6

Cost 10 gold 23 resources. Has morale 11 when all the others in the same class have 10.

For comparison here is the maul guy.
Maul
Damage 9
Attack 0
Defense -1
Length 3

Cost 10 gold 22 resources. Morale 10. Other stats identical.
The Battle axe guy is very similar except that it costs 24 resources and has one more defense due to battle axe.

CBM:
Standard Pikeneer
Pike
Damage 6
Attack 2
Defense -1
Length 6

Everything else is the same. No change to the other soldiers in the same class.

So what is my point? Well, even before CBM the pikeener was a very good unit compared to the others for the price. A length 6 weapon means that his attacks will never be repelled, and that he can repel everything except length 6 weapons which are rare. Higher morale speaks for itself. The next lowest resource cost is another plus. He is just awesome on all points except one: damage. If you want to do more damage you buy a battle axe soldier for instance, they cost one more resource, has lower morale, wields a length 3 weapon (meaning that they can get repelled against the common spear). They also have one lower attack. The only plus with the battle axe is that it makes 4 more damage than the pike. It is okay, on many occasions you need that extra damage and hopefully you go up against short swords or broad swords.
With CBM however, the difference in damage between the two is suddenly only 3 and that means that you will hesitate a little before buying anything other than the pike. But that is not all, the pikeneers now has an attack rating of 12 in comparison to the battle axe soldiers 10. So why on earth do you want to buy the much more inferior and more expensive battle axe soldier when you can get the pikeneer?

In my eyes the pikeneer was fine before, it had its niche and you used it a lot because of its many strong points. Now it is the only sensible unit to buy. It was a very thin line, and as the experienced MA Ulm player that I dub myself, I now see that line broken. No biggie but I just love balance and CBM. Yes, I have converted. :)

Just my 2 cents. :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I was a strong advocate of improving the pike. The issue is that pike guys never actually made good chaff, since they lack spears and their repel rarely meant anything. They also sucked vs cavalry, which never made much sense to me. So I like that the weapon has been improved. I think the problem you've spotted is particular to MA Ulm, because of their wide variety of stuff that's hard to justify building, like the maul infantry. The thing is the job of the guys with two handed weapons is to do damage - if you want them for any other purpose, get the shielded guys instead, because they're better at staying alive and better vs lower prot enemies. So where you don't want to build shielded guys, when you're against high prot dudes, that's where the pike is the worst of the three.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Yes, that is all sound if it was true that repel sucks. It doesn't. What one first must understand is that repel works both ways. You can repel your enemy when you are attacked and you can get repelled by your enemy when you do. If you wield a pike you will never get repelled (as there isn't any length 7 weapons) and you almost always get to repel. With battle axe (or hammer or morningstar for that matther) you will be at the other end; you will almost always get repelled and almost never get to do repel yourself. You just have to play a little to see the difference.

That is why the pikeneer is a little better unit than it seems, and why the others actually are a little worse than they seem. And that is also the reason why the pikeneer shouldn't get an additional boost.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

As a small demonstration I have attached two files showing pikes and axes against exactly the same enemy units. I ran the test battles 10 times each with very little variation in the results.

Please pay notice to the repel animation on both sides (for pikes the pikeneers and for the battle axes the spears) to see the difference. Attack 12 and morale 11 plus a length 6 weapon is speaks clearly.

CBM version is 1.4

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I've also noticed the problem with MA Ulm, and made a mod to change it. It started by changing resource costs and damage s that MA Ulm's recruitables are different, but it grew "a little" to change most mundane weapons...

If you're interested, I can upload the mod somewhere. I thought I already uploaded it into the giants BC thread, but I couldn't find it again.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

You are most welcome to upload it, Endo! :)

Thank you for taking the time make a mod trying to address these issues. It will be very interesting to look at your suggestions.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I don't see the point of this test. All it demonstrates is that repel works against things with low morale, which I don't believe was denied. The issue with repel has always been that with a small boost in morale it is easy to ignore. Having length 6 weapons and good attack is nice and all, but since the units with pikes are basically chaff and repel doesn't work against things designed to kill chaff (or units you'd expect to actually do damage, period), it's not too strong.

Do pikemen or axemen do better against elite heavy infantry (let's say, MA Ermor guys)? And why compare pikemen only with the other non shielded troops?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

What I want to show is not that the pikeneers can repel but that they can't be repelled. That gives them an edge over axe men (length 3). More so to hammer men (length 1) who will often get repelled, even by broad swords (length 2) because of their rather low morale (10-11) and low defense (10-11). Battle axe guys are easier to repel (defense (6-7) but you need a spear (length 4 to 3).

Pikeneers can ignore all this that would have been a problem (due to low defense) without their pike (length) and can just strike unhindered. And they are greatly helped by the extra attack bonus from the CBM pike (from 11 to 12).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I hear ya on this Dedas, but in a game of rocks scissors paper the answer is archers.

I think perhaps the answer is to bump the pikes cost up by 1-2, to correspond to the increased attack, or to lower the other units an equivalent amount.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I think it still needs #ofeffects reduced though. I had to quit an SP game because just entering the mid-game, I was attacked by Vanheim, and I was summarily slaughtering them as I expected to with my strong elite troops - but really even 4-5 Vanjarls spamming Confusion (the AI seems to know?!) could destroy my armies.

The problem isn't even losing battles, so much. But every battle that I won, I would suffer 20-30% attrition, almost entirely from my own men killing eachother. With my formations broken up, the mages would surive EVERY combat, to come back to haunt me again. Against humans it would be horrifying, as they would come with large numbers of cheap-ish mages, supported by strong troops. The AI just used it to win due to its relentless spam attacks of small forces. Thing is it was forces I should lose at most 1-2 men against (I had decent mage support, but no Antimagic), and yet I was losing 20+ in many combats.

Sorry for being so long winded. I just think Confusion would still be "useful" and attractive at #ofeffects 2+ rather than 4+.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Yes, I wish it was that simple. The thing is that CBM changes the whole weapon type 'pike'. That means other units in other nations as well (not many but a few). And if you change one thing you usually have to change another to keep balance. My point is that it is simpler to just revert back to the standard pike as it actually worked as it was intended. This whole "issue" and the fix was created by people wanting the pike to work against cavalry charges (just like in real life). The thing is that the current combat mechanics can't simulate that without causing problems in other parts, like the pikes balance against other weapons.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

To avoid any of your troops being repelled all you need to do is cast sermon of courage on them anyway imo. An extra 2 morale makes a big difference.

I think the issue is more that the other Ulmish infantry suck at fighting (though they make passable chaff) than pikes being too good. I think pikes should be something special anyway, they certainly are historically and it isn't like pikes and long spears are common weapons in dom3. They also exist in the age of crossbows largely, where they get blasted really easily, like all 2 handers.

Regardless pikes aren't broken or anything, but maybe they are better than the other MA Ulm infantry choices. Those could do with a boost anyway imo.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I don't think the original pikes are worth buying at all. They aren't just competing with MA Ulm two handed weapon guys and hammer users (the hammer is a truly awful weapon), they're competing with other infantry and have high resource cost, no shield, mapmove 1 and so on.

Could you do a quick test for me? (I can't run dom3 right now) Set a pike unit to morale 30, att 30, def 1. Set an enemy unit to morale 2, att 30, prot and hp as high as possible. I just want to confirm 100% that the repel morale check comes before the prot check. I believe it does, but it would be nice to be certain. By using those settings you would expect the attacking unit to be repelled every time. If he isn't repelled then it's down to his prot.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Yes, I'm all with you on that Sombre. My point main point is that the pikeneer can't be repelled by any unit when he attacks them. That gives him a much greater advantage than is commonly perceived. I have played and tested a lot and with the increased damage of the pike it is no point of buying a guy that does three more damage but have to do a repel test when he attacks someone with a longer weapon than him(spear is 4 and is very common). Just for fun look at the hammer guy, he gets to do a repel check against almost every other weapon in the game making him truly bad on the attack (and defense as he blows at repelling back as well).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Yeah the hammer troops aren't for doing damage though (which is good since they can't).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Exactly!

And if you want to do some damage and still have a shield the morningstar troops are standing ready. You lose 1 damage and 1 defence but gain 1 attack (+2 extra against shields) and 1 length. And although the encumbrance is horrible on both of them they can soak a lot of mundane missile fire away from your damage dealers. The pikeneers are better at keeping the enemy away for a sustained time in close combat, while battle axes or mauls can flank and the fatigued (thus low defence) enemy.
Flails on the other hand are great when attacking high defence low protection troops; with the attack bonus and double attacks they have a good chance of hitting. Length isn't bad either at 3, and according to the manual it gets -2 harder to repel after each additional attack. They also get +2 against shields. Perfect for those high defence, low prot, shield wielding Vans. If they have broad swords you can even repel against them.
Everyone has their niche. That is why I think it is a shame that I now only use pikeneers - they have gotten too good. Damage the same as morningstars, better attack bonus, longer weapon, cheaper and so on. Not fun. :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I just played against LA Ulm in MP and I have to say Dedas is right in saying Pikeneers are a good unit. They now seem overpowered somewhat for their cost compared to the other infantry units of Ulm.

By the way the help text of CBM says that Sanguine Heritage now costs 33 slaves but still appears to be 44 slaves in game.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Yeah, those Pikeneers almost took your Jaguar warriors on a one on one basis.

In the labbing I did, their only weakness lay in their low Morale.
Interspersed with ghoul guardians, that issue is mitigated.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

You are correct it still is 44.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Has something happened to Summon Spectral Infantry? Just tried to cast in an MP game and it cost 5 gems, which is the vanilla rather than CBM value??

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

reposted from gamethread:

i just ran another test game, this time using the exact same mods this game is using...

1.3: 5 gems for 5
1.4 1 gem for 5
1.41b 5 gems for 5

so 1.41b, perhaps also 1.41 which i didn't test, undid the 1.4 change to the price

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

1.41b isn't an official CBM, it was Zeldor's fix of the Air 8 business

Edit: not sure if its 1.41 or 1.41b where the bug resides

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Both the llamaserver and the llamabeast are in some state of confusion over what is the current version of CBM. This is partly because chrispedersen uploaded a couple of his own versions, but also partly cos I think a 1.41b was mentioned but I can't find it. QM, could you clarify please? Thanks.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Where is QM?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I think Quantum is still a regular in the irc channel, if you feel like asking important questions.

Dedas, check out the Charge! thread for the mod I mentioned.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

1.41b is being used in the llamaserver game "madness". as far as i know, no chrispedersen version is being used.

official 1.41 is bugged, so not used. I think the current valid version is 1.4.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

1.41 is the official current version, however I recommend any games with LA Agartha use 1.4 instead.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

Bug & typo fixes collected from the b & c versions posted elsewhere. Also, it seems the Bogarus horsemen didn't have the resource cost reductions mentioned in the readme. They were using #rec command (which I didn't see used anywhere else. Does it actually do anything?) with values corresponding to what the readme said their new base resource costs should be. So replaced #rec with #rcost.


And the LA C'tis summon holy changes from c:

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 

I made 1.41b with just blindlord bug, to get Madness started. I added just b, as QM is the one to increase version numbers.

I think that best thing would be the release of 1.5, so all that numbering can be clarified.