Noobs vs. Vets, Game Over, Noobs are Victorious! Hail Noobs!
 

The vet team has conceeded @ turn 20. Thanks to all for your participation. Join us in our new game:

Noobs vs Vets II: Mysteria's Revenge.

Septimius Severus wrote:

"In a victory for noobs everywhere, the intrepid team of fresh young noobs, roundly and soundly defeated the team of seasoned battle-hardened vets, who though they fought valiantly and contested every inch, were ultimately humbled and brought low."

Here are the settings for the game:

Hosting via Llamaserver

Late Age
CBM 1.41c
Teams: 10 Noobs vs 5 Vets
Hosting interval: 36 hour/quickhost, 48 @ 10, 72 @ turn 40 (or by consensus).
Map: The Desert Eye. Fixed starts hand selected and optimized by myself for balance, defense, access, proximity to other team members, etc.
Score graphs: ON
Research: Standard
Indie strength: 6
Victory conditions: No vps/victory, annihilation of opposing team.
Delays: Liberal. Automatically granted provided I receive a PM in time and you post on the thread as well to let everyone know, and there are no major objections.

Teams:

Noobs
Septimius Severus - [R'lyeh]
Lavaere - [Bogarus]
rdonj - [T'ien Ch'i]
Alpine Joe - [Utgard]
Lumen Placidum - [Ulm]
Darloth - [Jomon]
pyg - [Midgard]
Aristander - [Gath]
Amonchakad [Agartha]
Giant Moth - [Man]

GrudgeBringer (standby/alternate)
PsiSoldier (standby/alternate)
Arcturus42 (standby/alternate)
Jachra (standby/alternate)

Noob Forum: Team Noob HQ

Vets (1 more alternate needed)
Lingchih - [Pangaea]
Iron Hawk - [Abysia]
Evil Homer - [Mictlan]
Big and Scary - [Ermor]
Quantum_Mechani [Pythium]

Zeldor (standby/alternate)

Backup Admin: rdonj

Alternates will be contacted/selected to fill vacanies during the game.

Thanks.
CAESARIMPERATORLVCIVSSEPTIVSSEVERVSPERTINAXAVGVSTV S

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

The CBM mod nations are not any stronger than the vanilla nations, so they won't really help with balance. They might be fun though.

This sounds like an interesting game! I would join it if I had a little more time.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I'd partecipate gladly, of course on the n00bs side :D

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

In my personal experience, teams with more than 2 members will make the game very burdensome, as the team members will spend too much time arranging cooperation. (exchange boosters, group gems for GE, assign different strategy, etc.)

Newbies will not clearly understand how important it is to discuss and cooperate with teammates. But I still think it is not a good way to play Dom in big group, even just to the learning aspect. That is to say, noobs can not learn too much by cooperation with other noobs, while the teams of veterans will be far stronger than any noobs' imagination.

So I suggest: let newbies make groups of 2-3 players/team, while the veterans must fight sololy as usual.
This seems to be more attractive at least for me. (Though I have no more time for another game...)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I'd like to play this, but I am not really noobish anymore and I am not a vet either.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I'd certainly be interested, noob as it would be my first MP game

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I like the idea behind this game :) I'd like to play, I'm not a completely green noob as I've played a fair amount of sp but I've only finished one mp game. There aren't many LA nations I'd be interested in playing though.

I'd prefer 24 hour quickhost at the beginning but I can live with 48. Of the maps you listed I would prefer Cradle, but I think Orania would probably be better suited to the scenarion (wrap around maps drive me crazy). I think a fixed start version should be made though for whatever map is used, to put players on different sides. Or you could put the experienced players in the middle surrounded by the inexperienced players, though honestly I wouldn't do that.

Victory by elimination or surrender sounds good.

I think the 9:3 version would probably work better. Idea: What if the noob team had a more experienced player leading it, coordinating battle plans and there to advise the noobs? This would work better with the 8:4 version. They could also be given a less powerful nation to offset the advantage of having them on the noob team.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I vote for the 48 hrs qh 'cuz I'm always a little busy.
I agree with rdonj that we need a proper map not to have the n00bs all together and forced to clash - sorrounding the gurus would be great.
The coordinator idea seems a bit difficult because nobody likes getting orders, even if he's a n00b, or seeing that his orders are not obeyed because someone finds (rightly) funnier to do another thing :D

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

What about something Baalz suggested in another thread, a kind of "Cold War" scenario, where you have a few vets who are required to be hostile to one another, and the newbies will sort of coalesce around them as their "sphere of influence" so to speak. Would make for a very interesting game. As far as maps go, personally I would prefer something other than Cradle since I'm currrently playing a game on it already, but anything is fine.

Edit: if you want to use fixed starts, know that Cradle only has 11 land starts and 1 water.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I'd have the game of SeptSev as it is - and go for the Cold War in another game ;) (to which I'd love to partecipate... damn, we could play that on a real world map! :D Except that the America would be pretty much cut from the rest... )

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I'm interested, in as a noob who has yet to finish a multiplayer game.

I like the cold war idea.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I'm new and would love to participate in something like this. I agree that the very large team probably wouldn't work, so the 2v2v2v2v1v1v1v1 is probably a better idea (or the 3v3v3v1v1v1). I'd also be very interested in the Cold War sort of game. It would be awesome playing as the oceanic nations while people on either side work against each other. Of course, it would be nice if it were possible to just ferry over people who could pay you ;).

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I'd be interested, I think.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I don't really see a large team game being that unwieldy personally, you just have to make sure not to step on each other's toes... so as long as you communicate you should be fine. Plus in a big team you have access to all sorts of gems and should be able to spend them very efficiently.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

3 on 1 is pretty brutal no matter how you stack the teams, especially so early on before there's much magic available.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I've played with Nehekhara, they did seem to bit over-powered. I wonder why most games don't incorporate them then? If they are not over powered, I mean?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Part of the reason is to teach us cooperation.

I worry that a team of 2/3 noobs having to contend with other teams of noobs (if that is what your suggestion was) as well as vets might easily be overwhelmed.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Small teams might are also more likely to have to worry about (what if their partner stales, drops, what have you). If not against multiple small teams of noobs, as long as they are not pitted against each other.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

That cold war scenario thing would end up pitting noobs (as vassals of the vets) against other noobs and that is a bit different than what I had in mind. Nice idea though.

If it were possible, I'd like to pick and choose where I place the nations, so that the noobs would occupy one portion of the map, while the vets the other. 1 water vet would be fine, they should know how to handle themselves, vs land as well.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Doesnt seem like you've really settled on a game format yet, but the idea is interesting, conceptually.

Put me on standby as a vet.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Well what I was getting at was the fact that with only one water start, whoever ends up there just gets to sit and build up without being harrassed, until they just burst onto the scene where everyone else has been beating each other bloody. Its just imbalanced for them not to have any water competition.

On a different note, what about a regular free for all team game, but try to have each team consist of a vet plus a newb. It would be like having a mentor. The small teams would make the diplomacy less unwieldly and open to misunderstandings, while people would still have the benefit of playing at least against some vets.

Go ahead and just ignore me if you want, I'm just throwing off ideas here.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I think all n00bs against all v3ts teams would be funnier. :) But the map must of course be made so that the n00bs don't need to stomp over other n00bs to attack the v3ts, or we're screwed :D

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Thus the need to cooperate, i.e. keeping PD low in provinces bordering friendly team members (should you need to exchange provinces to allow access to the enemy, etc.), allowing each team member access to the sea, the enemy, etc. In the event someone should find themselves landlocked or with access blocked, well there lots different roles and ways to contribute, focusing on developing flying units, stealth, etc.

I'm open to any map suggestions, though I'm leaning toward Cradle with the fixed hand-placed start locations.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

True, in that case, I'd rather the water nation be a noob, I wouldn't want a vet "bursting onto the scene". I'm open to any other map suggestions though.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

If there is a water nation it should definitely be 8 on 4, since water nations could be very annoying to try and stop from raiding in that situation.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Put me in as a standby for the veteran team, not decided yet if I like the game idea.

The problem in balancing this I belive is the early and late game. Early on it does not take much skill for the noob team to just read a few guides and bust out with some bless strategy and ganging upon the few vets playing (and 8 vs 4 this will be painfull to stop for sure).

In the late game I do believe the vets will have an advantage since they know how to build sc/thugs, what spells to get and how to use them to maximum effect.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Hi guys, I'm new to Dominions 3(i have yet to play a single MP game) but i already got some experience agains the AI,and i'd like to join as a noob :D

Regarding the game,i think the "vet+noob" team would be better (or also vet+2 noobs if there aren't the numbers); we'd be able to learn a lot more.I'm in for any game mode anyway.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Part of this will be negated a bit by the map. If we're going with cradle of dominion, it's a very good map defensively that would make it very hard for the noob team to swarm over the vet team, as the terrain is very restrictive. On Orania that would be a bit easier, but orania has about 21 land provinces per player, and I can guarantee you the noob team will expand slower on a per person basis. Basically with an 8:4 ratio I would expect the noobs to hopefully hold their own in the early game, and then get slaughtered in the late game. At 9:3 I would expect the noob team to press the vet team more in the beginning and possibly be able to challenge them throughout the game. No guarantee there, though.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Can I innocently ask why the choice of LA if I might? :)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I also find the idea interesting, and since I am closer to a vet than a noob, I guess put me on that list as a possible player

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Interesting idea, coming from playing kohan (rts) and my experience there going noob vs vet I think the size of this game isn't quite right. In kohan at the top of my game I could do a 3v1 assuming the 3 were completely clueless, but that is coming from an rts (think on the fly) as opposed to a tbs (time to think your turns through). 2v1 against players that had some idea of what they were doing sometimes wasn't even close. Also there is a unit cap in kohan of 20 companies while in dominions it's open ended (it doesn't take alot of skill to just recruit massive amounts of chaff and swarm and in a game like this numbers mean alot in the early game).

Another thing to consider is that the vet team is in all likely hood going to have to rush to even the playing field. This doesn't necessarily promote a good learning experience as it only shows that one aspect of the game.

I would suggest scaling the size back to 5noobs vs 3vets, on a randomly generated wrap around map with no water provinces, set starting spots, and a no attack/rush rule in effect for the first 14-20 turns. This way every one has time to set up, assuming the noobs get 15 prov each and the vets get 20 prov each and that the vets potentially will be surrounded it should make for a much more interesting and fun game for both the vets and the noobs.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

The LA emphasis on military might vs magic (coupled with their numerical edge) I thought might give the noobs a bit of a boost as they are often unfamiliar with the magic system. Also, wanted to try another age other than the MA game I've already played.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

That actually makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't underestimate the edge vets might have on placement and the like though :D

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Seems 2:1 is definately more balanced early on, I don't want the vets scared away or anything. The vets will need to work together just like the noobs.

Good ideas, though I worry about a randomly generated map, nightmare scenario where 1 noob ends up surrounded by vets, or even vice versa. Cradle seems to be a fairly balanced map (in terms of expansion, access, defense,etc.) though I'm still looking to see if I can find something more suited to team play.

If everyone would like a no attack/rush rule that is fine, though it is probably not important on a map with evenly placed starting locations.

Before starting, the vet team will have the right to review and reject any member of the noob team (check main post) on account of non-noobness. I want it to be as fair as possible for the vets.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

the point of set starts is to avoid someone getting surrounded. Also, another problem with cradle is are the numerous chokepoints, it might be easy for the vets to fortify and weather the n00bs' assault.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Yep, though chokepoints can work either way.

Voting will begin soon (check first post) once we get a few more vets to commit/signup. We can then proceed to nation selection.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Speaking as a vet, rushing is certainly an option but its not actually a good one. Because you can only rush one nation at a time and if you are facing 2-1 or 3-1 odds then by the time you get to the enemy capital, you will already have lost your own.

What is more likely to happen is that the noobs will rush the vets. Because in the early game, until lots of magic and summons come into play, combat is fairly straightforward and gameplay experience will not give you too much of an edge. Its only when there are lots of spells researched and thugs and whatnot summoned where vets will really outshine more inexperienced players.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I agree with Ironhawk. The noobs have the advantage early on due to numbers and cumulative income. The longer the game lasts, the better the vets chances of winning grow. So a map that provides strong defensive advantages and chokepoints will heavily favor the veteran team, and highly diminish the numerical advantage the noobs get. I think a map along the lines of orania with pre-set start locations is probably ideal for this setup, though certainly a random map could work also. Just as long as it is mostly open to prevent people from being boxed in and unable to fight the other team.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Yep, having a balanced map with a decent defense would be key, what do you think of any of the others I listed on the main post? Alexander, Symmetry, Cradle?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I think symmetry looks like a cool map, but in this case I would say its unsuitable. The design of the map seems to look like it would isolate some of the noobs on the same half as the vets, where they could get ganked before all the others could pile on.

Could you provide a link to Alexander?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I may consider joining that, being in one team with Ironhawk is tempting. I'm not a vet yet, but after winning Kingmaker, I'm far from noob stage now.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I'll add you to our list of standby/alternates and otherwise undecided vets.

It looks like Orania and Glory of the Gods don't have fixed starts, so I'm going to drop them from consideration in the main post, you may still vote for them when the time comes of course.

Added a link for the Alexander map to the main post, the mad war version (the version I'm considering using) is viewable from the llamaserver map and mod browser.

More brave vets needed, ask around!

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Fixed starts can always be added to the .map file. Assuming no one takes LA MArignon or LA Atlantis that is.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Alexander - Might be possible but it seems too messy for what I'm envisioning.
Glory of the Gods - Probably a better choice than alexander. You'd have to array the noobs around the top and left side of the map to give them enough space, with the vets in the bottom right area. Problem is I think you'd have trouble leaving routes for all the noobs to attack the vets without stepping on each other's toes.
Symmetry - I agree with trumanator here, at least one of the noobs is going to be left largely on their own to deal with at least one of the vets early on. I wouldn't give that player much chance.

This is why I think Orania is a good choice, you can place people however you want and there are no natural funnels that will hamper logistics. On the other hand, maybe orania is a little too open, and a random map with a few mountaints would be better.

It wouldn't be very hard to make up a preset start version of whatever map is chosen, so really that part isn't a big deal.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Yeah adding fixed start positions is a breeze. Just pick the map that you feel works best geographically.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I'd consider joining, but only if we were to use a very packed map (I have enough big map games).

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

What map did you have in mind? I intend to use something ranging from 200-300 provinces for 12 players, if that's what you were refering to in terms of packed. In the meantime I'll add you to the vets as standby/alternate. You can opt in or out once the results of the vote are posted.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

I'll join. I'm a vet. Remind me now, through PM, please. I don't check this thread all the time.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Well if I can add preset starts then I'll add Orania and Glory back to the main post for consideration. You guys will need to either point me to a tutorial or explain the process to me though.

Tell me, is it possible on any map to specify exactly where a particular land or water nation starts?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets, LA, CBM, open recruitment/discussion
 

Yes, you can preset the start positions of each nation. I don't know how, since I have never modded. But I know it can be done.

Hmm. Lazy me. Never modded a game. Perhaps. I should get busy.