Getting AAA to fire
 

I have been scratching my head for some time now as to why my AAA will not fire at a/c. In my current game vis is 60+ and my AAA 40mm bofors are deployed in open fields. Enemy a/c coming flying in 20 hexes away and my guns just watch.

In a previous game I had SP AA-MG escorting my tanks, the a/c flew over them and they still did not fire.

What does it take? The a/c are well above the trees, LOS is long and vis is huge.

I am stumped and am a bit tired of using my AAA as infantry grinders because they fail to do anything else. I have searched the forums and the manual but could find nothing stating what it takes to get them to fire.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

did you got a "bad-target" message?

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Hi Weasel,

I just had a Hurricane shot down by my PBEM opponent (Vesku) yesterday. The plane crashed onto the battlefield. I didn't see a chute ;)

There was quite a few different guns firing at the poor bloke.

I think it helps if the AAA are stationary.

You may need shots left at the end of your turn; so I don't think you can use them to shoot up infantry and then expect them to shoot at aircraft in the same turn.

Perhaps you should ask Vesku what he did right.

cheers,
Cross

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

20 hexes away is a bit too far away. I think AA needs a minimum hit probability to fire.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

AAA needs a minimum to-hit chance to fire. The greater the %age, the more likely to fire. SP-AAA that moved are usually highly unlikely to fire in AA mode.

It also has a skill roll to pass to fire - and can fail that.

It also needs shots to fire - if you have been beating up grunts with them then it may not have sufficient reaction shots left, or be targeted on other troops and so decide not fire in AA mode since it is currently locked onto some squaddies.

It also needs LOS to the target. Smoke and dust can cause obscuration.


A bofors has about 40 hexes max range - it will usually fire at about 15-20 hexes or so on fresh incoming air targets. It may well follow a receding target out past 20 hexes, if it has successive shots and so has climbed the ranging ladder.

As with all things - it is very easy to set up a test scenario with some AAA guns on the one side (guarding some trucks as targets say) and some planes on the other targeted into the truck park and see what happens. Then change the parameters such as range to the target trucks, and see what then happens and so on.

Andy

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Ok, the bofors were not moving at all, had never fired from game start, and had been deployed for turns. So since most a/c chance to hit are around 2-5% I am best to assume that my AAA will never fire? I know in one game the only time my a/c got shot at was when they actually flew through a box of guns, but other then that nothing.

As for LOS; if my AAA is in the field, and there is a row of trees at the end of the field and the a/c come in in the hex row behind the trees is the game playing that the a/c are behind and below the trees? I fear this is what is happening, and if so that means his attacking a/c are flying at about 30 feet.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

if you still have the saved game, I suggest that you adjust the "hit ratio" in game preference to check whether it is due to to-hit probability. Change it to some value like 250%.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

You mean the actual HITTING PREF at battle setup? We have it at default 100% right now, but I can try that as it is a basic security campaign (if it lets me change it)

Thanks.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Strange that your Bofors didn't flash up I've lost more aircraft to those cursed guns than any other.

SPAA I find requires some discipline and sticking to doctrine. If you have two, one should always be stopped within reasonable range of the unit it's protecting with some field of view, this requires sometimes putting the SPAAA in view of the enemy, at least from a distance. The other should moving to the next good site, the over watch unit doesn't move until the moving unit is sited. With any luck a turn after the Alert Unit moves the enemy will be wasting a barrage on where you are not. Of course once the battle is joined all units should pull back some, usually enough not to tempt them into firing at ground troops.

IMHO Bob out:D

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Just a test. NOT when you really play it.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

I usually set my stationary flak up on hills, and dot them about in sections or platoons of 2-3 to form an interlocking (or near enough) matrix over the rear zone. That way, most planes that attack into the rear will fly near enough to a cell of guns (20 hexes or less) to get shot at. Individual guns about 4-6 hexes apart from platoon CO in case arty gets directed at them.

I dont set them up in a "grand battery" very often as the planes would need to be guaranteed to come to that spot of the map. Unless playing MBT of course where the guns will have much better FC and RF values than WW2, AA radar even and so will pop off at air targets way aways - even right across the map at helos. Post-war 57mm Soviet radar directed AAA is rather nice to have, and can cause a helo using enemy fits :).

I try to set them up in a "U" shaped box around my gun/moratar lines since the AI tends to get interested in attacking those.

SP-AA and any towed guns that I move forwards I deploy in a similar manner in the forward zone.

Inf-AAMG are useful to plod along behind the infantry coy HQs for local protection (and occasional ground target biffing up).

Trees, hills and built up zones will screen low flying planes from flak sitting on the flat. Putting them up on a little pimple with a good all round FOV usually cures that.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

It all depends how close you are to the trees LOS obstacle.
If the obstacle is a reasonable distance away they will see the plane & fire.
The closer it is the less of the sky they can see.
Typical example if you are walking down a street you cannot see a lot of sky because the houses block it, the closer you move the less you can see.
Same in a field 500m from a copse of trees you can see a lot more sky than if you were 150m from it.
Also remember you have to track the aircraft to get a chance to hit it a breif view of it & you would miss

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

You do not tell us who you are playing as or when. All I know is there were Bofors involved and maybe AAMG's. IDK why people think not giving all relevant details is being helpful. There *MAY* be an OOB error that is causing the error. Knowing who and when goes a long way sort things like that out

Here's a save game. The player with the Bofors, as that is the only known weapon, is P1 and is Canadian. P2 the AI is German. The map is dead flat desert and the visibilty is 68. There will be an airstrike . Watch what happens. Press " Quit Orders" when the game loads


Don

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Understood, I meant I could replay the turn where the entire luftwaffe came in a few turns back and see if things change.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Is not the bofors data used for all nations? You are saying that a Cdn bofors is different from a UK bofors?

It is UK vs Ger 1939. Bofors set up in an open field in a U shape, 6 guns. The field is about 10 hexes wide and 15-20 hexes long with a single row of trees outlining it. Vis to tree line is about 15-20 hexes, then there is a single row of trees and open terrain behind. A/C came in either on my side of the trees, on top of the trees, or the hex behind the trees. About 8 a/c came in with not a single shot being fired. Vis in game is 60+. Guns are stationary, have not moved for at least 3 turns. Unit xp/moral is 70s. Guns did not fire the turn before when a/c came in either, except for a single shot by a bofors I had just moved (I have 8 total, 6 not moving and 2 were moving more forward)and unlimbered that the a/c flew over. This bofors was surrounded by trees in a defile (using as infantry bashers since they were not doing much else). Range of shot was 2 hexes, no joy.

Do you need anything else?

In my games I have seen more shooting by tank AA-MG then by dedicated AAA.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

NO How did that get twisted around like that ? How do I know what nation you were using and what unit using what weapon if you don't tell us and we have to guess ? I said it *MAY* be an OOB error but how am I supposed to check that unless we know the details ???



Yeah, what we tell everyone over and over-- how about a save game so we can actually see it.

If you ran my save you will see Bofors firing at aircraft and there is NO difference in the weapons stats between the Brit and CDN OOB's for that weapon

Don

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Well I ran the same turn over again and this time my AAA fired 4 times at 3 different a/c. What the difference was I don't know; but I will end this thread here as asking questions only seems to infuriate the powers that be.:smirk:

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Keep taking that attitude and you'll be permanently ignored. I'm trying to sort out an issue with zip all real information until it was extracted bit by bit. We are quit willing to investigate and fix real problems but we need all the information to do that. I have NO idea why they would fire the second time around and not the first. The first thing that springs to mind is the first time *perhaps* you had run a number of other applications before or during game play and that interfered with the game in some way and the second time it was a fresh boot. IDK, only you can answer that but you're the first one to complain AA wasn't firing and both Andy and I were doing out best to sort it out for you

Don

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Well I have been trying to delete my forum account but do not see that option under CP and no one has replied to my post.

I was asking a question, not complaining but it is viewed as such . I am not the only one who has been scratching their heads, and it is not just a single country or weapon. I was asking so I could let the guys at the blitz whom I play and have found the same thing so they know what is up.

So as soon as someone responds to my post on the main forum..................

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

This is what I posted at THE BLITZ:

"Ok, after many emails to me, and frustration on my part too, I asked the designing powers at Shrapnel how exactly the AAA routine works in winspww2. The reply from Mobhack was educating, and instead of replying to each person whom asked individually I am posting here.

First off: IGNORE the max range on AAA for engaging a/c, it means basically nothing. AAA will normally only engage out to about a range of 20 hexes max; now you may get the odd long shot, but all in all the a/c must fly closer then 20 hexes to the AAA unit to be engaged and have a chance of being hit. Consider the 20 hexes the maximum range. What does this mean? AAA must be deployed close to the units you want to protect. The days of setting your guns on a hill top and hoping they might engage a/c attacking your artillery 22 hexes away is over. My suggestion and as mentioned by Mobhack: set your guns into a U shape near the vital target with about 4-6 hexes between tubes.

Second: SPAA - this AAA is basically only good for very close in a/c attacks, within 8-10 hexes of the target maximum. In my experience it only engages a/c within 5 hexes. So ensure one unit is always stationary near the target (best not to have moved the turn before also) while the other is moving up to the next position; think over watch.

Thanks to Mobhack (Andy) for providing detail on the AAA routines."

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

From experience I think this is wrong perhaps another explanation
1) AA needs a LOS to fire & like other guns may well not fire if its hit chance is to low saving shots for a better target.
2) If the gun already has a better target i.e. fired at ground unit & has a "lock" it is even less likely to fire.
3) If it moves to hit chance goes down
4) Mobile & static guns both use same rules so if had identical stats both would react to a given situation the same.

So what should you look for in AA gun for it to engage.
To engage initaly experience helps plus a good range finder, range & gun accuracy.
To continue engaging good fire control & ROF help as additional shots at same target have a chance to climb to a higher to hit chance.

Range has an effect I think as the shorter the range the quicker the accuracy & damage fall off.
An AA gun would need a reasonably good RF (think post WW2) to fire at max range.

As far as I know it therefore follows exatly the same rules as any ground gun.
A WW2 tank with a range of 100 will never engage another unit at that range.
A modern era tank with improved FC RF will if its chance to hit is now high enough.
Probably other factors involved like still might not take because can't kill but I do not want to know the exact mechanics involved I prefer to just play & observe.

The one diffrence Betwwen AA & normal ground guns is they will not tend to op fire at troops as it is not their primary role.

Hope this helps & like I say it is just my observation of how the game works, might be wrong but seems to work okay in practice

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Here are some cold, hard numbers related to the US 40mm AA gun in some tests I ran in the game.

To begin with, the terrain was completely clear ground. Testing took place on a 100x100 map with visibility set to 80. The variables controlled were the experience of the AA unit and the target. Test conditions had four US 40mm AA guns set up to to engage the target coming in on a straight east-west approach. There were four test scenarios with 20 passes in each condition:

1. US experience 70, target Ju88P-2(size 5, speed 5).

Average engagement range: 10.9
Maximum engagement range: 15
Minimum engagement range: 7

2. US experience 70, target Fw190A-8(size 3, speed 8).

Average engagement range: 4.9
Maximum engagement range: 11
Minimum engagement range: 0

3. US experience 120, target Ju88P-2(size 5, speed 5).

Average engagement range: 17.7
Maximum engagement range: 20
Minimum engagement range: 8

4. US experience 120, target Fw190A-8(size 3, speed 8).

Average engagement range: 15.0
Maximum engagement range: 20
Minimum engagement range: 0

One general note is that only engagements of an incoming plane were counted. The objective of AAA is to protect friendly forces from enemy aircraft. If the enemy plane succeeds in dropping it's load, the gun has failed this mission.

Another note is only one pass was made on a given turn. No attempt was made to overwhelm the AA defense.

While the target hex was the same in each test, it was not spotted. As such, the target plane would sometimes deviate it's path three hexes north or south of the expected path to engage one of the AA units instead of the target in the hex. The target was the infantry HQ unit.

Here is some basic information I got out of these tests:

1. At no point did the AA guns engage a target beyond 20 hexes. There were four guns and a total of 80 air strikes, so for 320 possible instances, the range 46 US 40mm AA guns did not engage past 20 hexes.
2. Experience is a factor. This wasn't unexpected. At experience 70, the maximum range of an engagement was 15 and that happened once out of 160 possibilities. When experience was increased to 120, engagements at 20 hexes became more frequent. Experience could be a significant factor in single battle PBEM games where national average is used.
3. Speed/size of target is a factor. Again, this wasn't unexpected. When AA experience was 120, they failed to engage the Fw190 on two passes. At AA experience of 70, they failed to engage the Fw190 on 10 passes. In all cases, the Ju88 was attacked.

If anyone has any questions about this testing, let me know.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Intresting read Ray, about what I would have expected though Fw-190 surprised me a bit.
Never buy that gun so it must be a low quality AA Gun.
As in poor accuracy & fire control.
From memory & varies by nation can get accuracy around low 20s & RF of 4 or 5 for a few points more. These will I think engage at longer range

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

So according to RERomine's tests, i should pick the fastest and smallest possible A/C for attack runs?

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Statistically, it is identical to the Bofors, even if it isn't called one. Guns with higher accuracy, such as the 50 Quad, should expect better hit results, but having a smaller warhead less will come from each hit.

I did run some more abbreviated tests using the US 50 Quad and the German 2cm and 3.7cm guns. They weren't as extensive as the the testing with US 40mm AA gun, but those guns still did not engage beyond 20 hexes. With all of these guns, range isn't any more than 46 hexes. I should test the Russian 37mm as it has a range of 55 hexes. What I expected was maximum engagement range to be somewhere around half of the maximum range of the gun and not a wall of 20 hexes. If the Russian 37mm gun doesn't get past 20 hexes, I would conclude there is a code limitation that prevents engagements beyond that.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Well, based on the tests, I would pick a Fw190 over a Ju88. Beyond that, I don't want to draw too many conclusions.

Andy mentioned that AA guns won't fire unless they have a minimum percentage chance to hit. Both the size and the speed of the target influence that ability. Specifically, higher speed and smaller size targets should be more difficult to hit.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Thought that was a given, choose the weapons you want then small fast planes for survivability.
As I said if it works for ground units it works for air to including spotters.
Diffrence is if you want real survivability in WW2 go for level bombers as need big AA guns to engage. Long call time though.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Additional testing, using a Russian 37mm AA gun at experience 120, doubling rate of fire and doubling the warhead size would not permit the gun to engage targets beyond 20 hexes. I suspect fire control plays a factor in engagement range when used in AA mode and light guns during WW2 were limited in this area.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

The basic answer is engagement range is effected by the obvious: fire control and range finder. During WW2, light AA guns were controlled manually and aimed generally through open type sights. Don't expect a lot out of light AA guns. At least they are cheap :)

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Food for thought.

If there is a limitation, it maybe due the MAX Ranges for any of the AAA only takes into account range across the ground as a surface weapon.

Airstrikes and AAA firing at them are using the limited part of the programming which very simply simulates airpower in the game. We don't really know what the aircraft is doing on its strike run except its ingress and egress routes. Again for AAA the same applies, it is shooting into the sky, I wouldn't expect a piece with 3000 meter range over ground to be able to reach out to 3000 meters in the sky over ground. Remember one reason 88's and other Heavy AA Pieces made great and good ATG's was their design to be able to push their FLAK loads high into the sky over their positions, I dare say those guns didn't range too far from their positions in their Flak Roles either. Just another reason even the big guns tended to be mobile, as their locations would be easy to hit otherwise.

Personally the game does a fair job of simulating CAS and Level Airstrikes and the defence against them. Nothing more annoying than an airstrike against the US when everybody and their brother has AA 50cal's and fill the sky with lead. The more metal in the air the more likely you will hit the JABO SOB or convince him this is not a healthy place to be.

Bottom-line if you expect airstrikes recruit as much AAA as you can practically include and keep them close to likely targets.

Gotta love this game!!


Bob out:D

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Hi
Actually flak is modelled incorrectly in the game,
in that
In reality a flak gun can fire at as many planes as present themselves to it.
In the game however by putting a lot of planes in one strike you swarm the flak defences.
So the solution is that if the flak hasnt been used against a ground target or maybe moved as well, it should suffer no restriction to the number of shots it can fire at passing planes.
The assumption being that the planes are attacking in single "file" or "individually", close enough to the truth, typhoons I believe attacked in pairs maybe.
Thats real flak not stuff on tank roofs.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

The overall objective was to get a clear idea on how effective we can expect AAA to be in the game. It was brought up that some guns don't fire at all when there are viable targets within effective range. In my tests, I tried to control certain factors to give the guns optimum firing conditions, i.e. clear ground and high visibility. My tests confirmed that there are situations where guns won't engage targets in range. The significant impact of gun crew experience on their willingness to engage has at least convinced me that in campaigns, AAA units should be in the core.

Chuck, as far as the AA model, all I can say is it is what it is. My objective was not to validate the model, but to understand what we can expect out of it. Guns frequently not firing at targets was a surprise. Now I know what to expect. Was it realistic? I don't know One would like to think every gun would shoot at the appropriate target if one presented itself, but I'm sure there were instances were guns failed, for whatever reason.

Bob, in looking around for information on AAA gun effectiveness, I came across references to rounds self destructing at a certain point. Apparently, some AAA rounds were designed to explode when the tracer burned out, thus creating an artificial maximum range. If I understand the purpose of this correctly, it was to keep HE rounds from dropping back into friendly positions. Larger rounds burst at high altitude using a barometric fuse, so there is a different intent than with the rounds self destructing at tracer burn out.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

AA guns will not fire at targets if the game determines there is no chance of a hit and crew experience does factor into that as does the size and speed of the target. Andy pointed that out right away. If we allowed them to bang away up to their maximum range huge quantities of ammo would be wasted with zero chance of having any affect then we'd get complaints AA cannot hit anything when they fire

As for Chucks assertion that any AA gun should be able to fire at any aircraft regardless of how many others they have fired at consider if that "logic" was applied to any other unit in the game. Should an AT gun be able to fire at every tank that appears ? Putting a large quantity of tanks in the field also "swarms" the defences. The reason aircraft enter the map one at a time is becasue that's the way the game is set up to work but , like AT guns there are only so many targets a gun crew can engage in one "turn" and that's reflected in the number of shots it's given.

When this thread started were given very little real info. All AA guns are not the same in the game and "my AAA will not fire at a/c" when both Andy and I KNOW that AA guns WILL fire at AC ( and as "PanzerBob" pointed out "I've lost more aircraft to those cursed guns than any other" ) so this seemed to indicate that *perhaps* their might be an OOB error involved because each nation uses it's own weapons list and one might be wrong but we cannot possibly know that without information . The only way to know for sure is to get solid information as to nation, year, unit number if possible so that can be checked but also, ****ALWAYS****, a save game demonstrating the problem goes a long way to answering all those questions that crop up and reduce everyones frustration level

Don

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

That is because when this thread started I asked how the AAA routine (game code) works, not why doesn't X unit shoot when Y unit does. Whether the unit was bofors, a quad 20mm, or a bow and arrow didn't matter, I was asking how the game code/routine works. Several people understood what I was asking, others did not. As for AAA only firing when they think they can hit something; why the heck were the skies in Germany, and at Okinawa covered in flak, they all can't be counting on sure hits.

And with that I am out of here. :deadhorse:

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

if you're not happy, why do you play the game anyway?

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Good Weasel,

IMHO you still managed to inspire some good discussion on AAA. I think you missed the answer to your question, which was it really depends on many factors as to how the game handles AAA.

Bob out:D

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

1/Because flak gunners in Allied armies were notorious for shooting at anything with wings regardless of range or what nation the pilot of the aircraft was fighting for.

2/ They didn't have an AI in their brain telling them the to hit chance was zero so don't bother firing

We could change the code so that AA fires as soon as a target is within range of the AA gun even though the to hit chance is non existent but in the end it would leave a lot more players unhappy with the routine than are now and we'd hear a constant whining about how AA guns can't hit anything.

Or I supposed we could go Chuckey's way and allow AA to fire unlimited at any target at any range but the end result would be the same as paragraph 2. The difference being air attacks would slow to a crawl as every AA gun fires at maximum range each time the aircraft moves a hex. But then, if we did things the way Chuck wants aircraft would rarely ever hit anything with rockets or bombs so the end result of those bright ideas would be nobody would bother with air attacks because they take forever to resolve and nothing positive happens when they do and we'd get a new round of b*tchinging that air attacks are a waste of time and points.

Don

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Just out of curiosity, do planes that are engaged while making attack runs suffer suppression? If so, does such suppressian cause the aircraft to abort an attack or affect its ability to hit the target? Aside from placing AAA units and setting ranges, the whole air defense routine is under AI control.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

I think they can cause suppresion but not that frequently in which case assume it does affect the attack. Never had one abort an attack though even if damaged on the way in it still completes its run

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

If aircraft on the run in get hit or encounter dense AAA it does affect their chances of sighting and hitting targets. Just as terrain, smoke and fire can really effect your targeting and results. As far as an actual abort goes, I don't recall this happening per say.

Bob out:D

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Hi Don
AAA firing at any range is your idea not mine. But after further reading and some testing I now think the current modeling of AAA limited shots is OK. Sorry to have wasted you time on that. At least you dont have to worry about the game slowing to a crawl.

However for me and anyone who thinks the game should reflect reality the rocket and bomb accurracies remain a problem.
Can I just say according to the link below in-game you have modeled the typhoon rockets as 50 times as accurate as they were in reality, not twice, 50 times.

Your other concern is that accurate modeling of the weapons (in)accuracy will lead to complaints that air attacks are a waste of time and points
But if you pursue 'Chuckies way' the solution to the problem is this,
Make air assets a lot cheaper so no worries about the points.
Typhoon rockets -were- a waste of time against a panther on a hill, you cant hit it, However they were devestating against an area target (road convoy, form up area, routed ememy, bottleneck etc) So you should save your rockets for a bunched target. Dont forget the 20mm guns remain effective and accurate against soft and lightly armoured vehicles. And of course the recon bonus.

The book goes on to say that the distance between the typhoons rockets mean point of impact and the aiming point is 62m or 43m according to the sight type. So to model this there should be an equal chance of the rocket landing in the aimed at hex or any of the 6 adjacent hexes. As the adjacent hexes represent the mean error half the rockets should fall one hex further again. Seems similar to a nebelwerfers fall of shot.
As the rockets blast zone is one hex out from the hex hit firing a salvo still has a very high chance of destroying a single soft vehicle type point target, it should be in the blast zone of at least half the rockets.
According to the book bombs are about half as accurate as rockets.

Some other interesting facts from the book

RAAF considered that fighter bomber attacks were ineffective at visibilities below 2000yds (40 hexes). Your game is happy to allocate fighter-bombers at well below this visibility.

THe article also has this to say,
3000ft (20 hexes) was the safe distance to keep away from German flak below 20mm calibre
However
6000ft (40 hexes ) was the safe distance to keep away from German flak of 20mm and 37mm calibre.
Single 20mm german flak came with a 1m rangefinder, its safe to assume that the quads and 37s also had one. An increase of the rangefinder values of these weapons to 8 might bring the effective engagement range out to somewhere nearer the real distance of 40 hexes rather than the current in-game 20 hexes.

The germans didnt see the jabbo threat as insignificant because when your sitting in the lee of your tank having a cup of tea and out of nowhere 8 60lb rockets arrive followed by a hail of 20mm shells, you think this isnt the glory days.

For people who complain about air attacks being useless tell them the game is trying to represent WWII realsticly not fancifully.

http://books.google.com.au
/books?id=0Eb_uqFyWBgC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=20mm+fla k+engagement+range&so
urce=web&ots=npFMCP3UIH&sig=xYvnMPkqVmToEymc7T2icE ujtts&hl=en&sa=
X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA75,M1

Best Regards Chuck

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

[quote=RERomine;671394]I know the the warhead size is counted in AP capability for AP rounds. Is it also counted in HE kill for HE ammo?

Quad 50 has a bigger HE kill (19) than that of twin Bofors (18) or single one (15) of the U.S. version. So maybe the damage of the two can be comparable.

I wonder which one is better, the quad 50 or the twin 40mm.
Quad 50: higher acc & HE kill
twin 40mm: larger WH, longer range.
From my test it seems that twin 40mm is a little bit better but the difference is very small.

In my game I use 40mm AA (stationary) to cover arty and SPAA (currently m15, looking for m16 when it's available) for tank & inf.

BTW, I am not sure about this:
In OOB12 (US army), unit 026 M19 duster. I think "duster" is actually M42, as in the WBT. Did M19 also get that nickname?

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Good day,

Ref: the "Duster" as the offical name of the M19, according to the AFV Database no, only the M42 carries that name.

However, it is possble the name arose as the nickname for the M19, due the dust kicked up when the guns were in action. Once the M42 was created the name became offical. One thing is certain many places do refer to the M19 as the Duster as well. I'd say as far as our OOB's go M19 Duster is likely not wrong as far as nicknames go, and an awful lot of military equipment has nicknames that has over time became their known names, even if the factory or armies never changed the designations.

:up:Good Question:up:

Don't even start me on the Tiger II!!;);)

Bob out:D

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

Aw come on you can't post something like that & not expand on it.

Re: Getting AAA to fire
 

You are more than likely correct. I was attempting to test when AAA units would engage, not whether or not they hit and what damage the hit caused. Some AAA units are multi-barrelled, others have a very high rate of fire and still others are a combination of both, so HE value is probably used instead of WH value. I was thinking along the lines of normal guns (not AAA and machine guns) when I made the comment about warhead size. For those guns, the HE value and WH value are usually directly proportional.