SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Well, this is about a mod concept, but please let the post stay here for a bit, as I want to gather ideas from everyone before I get started, including those who don't often look in the mod subforum.

Anyways, this has been discussed numerous times in the past, and I am ready to jump on it - A mod that introduces viable and cost effective Thug and SC chassis to all paths that lack them currently.

Basically, this is more for the large games, than the small games. In small games there are enough royalty and whatnot to give people a decent shot at getting something to work with. In a game with 20+ players, the people who do not shoot straight for Uniques, will generally always get locked out.

This mod will leave in the existing Unique royalty, but my current concept is to add in elemental "Princes" and "Princesses" who use the same models (hey, I'm cheap!), but have slightly reduced stats, and are somewhat cheaper. But I also want to include non-Unique SC chassis for Astral and Nature (probably use the Treelord graphic, and not sure what for Astral summon), and thug chassis for every path (other than Blood) that are comparable in cost/utility to Bane Lords.

Now here's the thing though - I want them all to be distinctly different, and have their own assortment of strengths and weaknesses, I'm not just going to copy Bane Lords and change the color, and call them "Astral Lords", that would be pathetic. So what I need from everyone, is some conceptual inspiration as to what would make a good thug for the various paths, and what will set each one apart from the rest. Also, if anyone wants to volunteer to do graphics for the thugs, it would be much appreciated, else I will recycle those from existing Dom3 sprites as well. ;)

I've got some ideas rolling around, but I am here to take suggestions and requests! I want this to be a resource that makes large games more competitive and enjoyable for everyone.


Early Concept List:

Fire
Ifrit (Bane Lord level thug, flying, minor magic randoms in FAES, same slots as Djinn)
Balrog (King level SC, Fear, flying, high stats, few slots with "built in" gear)


Earth
Ogre Conquistador (Bane Lord level thug, random magic, full slots, low MR, replaces Ettin on my list after all)
Golden Centurion (King level SC, regen, high resistances, Mindless, full slots, no magic)


Air
Hototo (Bane Lord level thug, good general, Standard, full slots, no magic)
Adom (sub-King level SC, Ethereal, damage shield, only misc+hands)


Water
Sludge Animate (Bane Lord level thug, Mindless, Fatigue attack)
Olm Champion (between Bane Lord and King level? high stats, few slots, powerful buffing magic)
Marid (King level SC, Awe, high MR, strong mage)


Astral
Entropic Manifestation (Bane level thug, 4 arms, Fear)
Entity (Bane Lord level thug, fast, flying, multiple life drain attacks, few slots)
Archon (King level SC, higher stats, full slots, high MR, no other abilities?)


Nature
Brownie Trickster (size 1 assassin, fragile but Glamored/Lucky/etc)
Lycan (werecreature, Bane Lord level thug, stealthy, high regen)
Vengeful Treant (King level SC)


Death
Decomposing Reaver (Size 4 Mindless, minor SC comparable to Golem, though perhaps lacking any magic - Enchantment 7)

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Something interesting might be a thug-type that already has high MR, Ethereal, Luck, etc. but poor stats elsewhere, maybe barely above humans, for Astral. A "Great Astral Spirit", maybe?

As for Nature, I think maybe something fairly mundane, with high Attack and Defense, but low-ish (for a thug/SC) MR/maybe morale. "Beastman", maybe (you could steal the graphics from Pangaea)? It might even have an extra Misc slot to represent that it has a tail to put rings and such on.

Just throwing these out there. :o

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Just so you know, I've nearly finished a project with exactly this intention. There was a thread some months ago that I took inspiration from.

That's not to say you shouldn't do one too of course. The more the better.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Hmmm, I didn't know anyone was actively working on it. It occurred to me that I hadn't seen any real discussion for a few months, and I had the inspiration today to really dig into it.

Out of curiosity, how many different summons are you implementing, and about how far away from completion is it? I agree that more summons can only be a good thing, I just don't want to discover that I am duplicating your work, when I'd rather be complimenting it.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

I don't agree with this project, not for MP play. I think the paths are attempted to be balanced. Giving air lots of good thugs would unbalance it due to all the good battle spells it has. On the other hand, Death is a little too powerful in this respect, while fire is a little too weak. so some tweaking could be done, but I don't think its a good idea to just add thugs to all paths wily nily. Air should not receive thugs I don't think.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

But the late game revolves around commander units. Commanders with distinctly powerful abilities, and far greater survivability to line troops. The current problem in MP now, is you either summon Tarts, you are into Blood, or you are Wishing Seraphs/Chayots/??. Yes you also have the royalty available, but when there are 20 players, and 12 royalty, you can see they won't make it far around the table.

The point is to provide options for everyone once their line armies start to become somewhat obsolete.

Honestly, I don't see where Air is any more powerful than any other path, in general. In the late game, most paths have ready ways to completely lay waste to entire armies - but few paths have something to supplement your strategy with, once your armies are vulnerable to wholesale slaughter.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Air is the one elemental path that is impossible to protect against in terms of armies...storm warriors will get you 50% resistance, but the damage is AN, so you still take damage. On top of that, the best army-wide prot buff confers 75% shock vulnerability.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

I don't see this as reasoning that they should be hamstrung in the summons category. Hardly fair if the heavy Air nations get to be feared until the late game, then find themselves faced by SCs summoned by everyone else, whilst their armies get Earthquaked to death.

Shock damage is AN, but is overall less spammable than many other damage types due to the high Fatigue on Thunder Strike, and the lack of either a "Cloud" or "Rain" type spell.

Anyway, that's beside the point. This thread has nothing to do with the relative viability of any paths outside of summons - only to do with the relative viability of summons per path. Currently only Death and Blood have non-unique summons that you can base late game strategies around, and only Death has a strong and affordable mid-game thug chassis, in the Bane Lord.

Now if you want to argue that the Air versions should be a bit weaker overall, then sure, give suggestions of how to implement them in a way that provides better overall balance - but they are getting summons to fill holes in their rosters. But you know, I'm not going to give Nature and Water significantly more powerful summons just because they are less useful in combat - so I don't know what you expect. :p

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

I think it would be neat to create a spell set to used in a game of _ONLY_ summons (master of monsters style. pa-dow)

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Fog Warriors > Earthquake. Shimmering Fields is a large area lightning attack, great for Armies of Foo like Micah says. Wrathful Skies is a "rain" effect I guess.

Some Air nations also get their own national thug summons or recruitables. Astral also has non-unique summons that you can base late game strategies around.

I think that not having common thugs/late SCs in every path increases diversity of tactics. If every path can just make thugs and SCs, you'll see even less armies in the late game.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

I agree that it needs careful balancing. But it has always bothered me that if I'm really into fire, then (assuming the royalty's gone) I simply _can't_ summon any useful thug. There's nothing. If that was a funny quirk of fire, fair enough, but it seems to be a funny quirk of fire, air, earth, water and nature (apart from the Sleeper), which I think is a shame.

Yeah, I haven't mentioned my project for a long time Jim, because it's been on hold. I got a little burst of enthusiasm yesterday though, so I may be able to finish it soonish. I think it's pretty unlikely we'd overlap, but here are my creatures:

Air:
Roc
Shishi
Asynja (the same as the pretender)

Fire:
Great Zmey
Ember Lord (a balrog, basically)
True Firebird (Bogarus annoyingly overlapped with the zmey and firebird, but my versions are very different)

Earth:
Wild Ettin
Mechanical Giant
Cyclops (smaller than the pretender)

Water:
Colossal Kraken (smaller than the pretender)
Grendelkin (with Earth) (based on Beowulf)
Wendigo (with death)

Nature:
Treant

Most of the graphics will be either original (zmey, ember lord, mechanical giant, grendelkin, wendigo, treant) or adapted and significantly changed from vanilla (roc, shishi, firebird, ettin, cyclops, kraken). Only the Asynja will use vanilla graphics. The graphics, of course, has been by far the bulk of the work, since big sprites are hard.

The balancing will need to be done carefully. Certainly air should never be even close to being as good at summons as death. But I just wanted there to be the option. If battlefield magic's no use, and you've got 200 air gems sitting around, I wanted you to be able to splurge on some cool stuff.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Hmm for astral you have that ether gate person.. maybe an upgraded version of him with a nice ability on top would be an option.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Astral has Golems and Wish already, and a few national angel summons.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Yeah, it's never hard to find a good use for astral pearls, I don't reckon any more astral summons are needed.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Hardly SC territory, but you could try for a fire thug:

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Also, what should be a simple thing to do, but you could make a summonable nordic Fire Giant SC using the Niefel Jarl chassis, just convert where appropriate all the cold and water magic to fire/heat, and give it a reddish tone rather than blueish.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Air:

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Try recuperation on Lilith, disease would at least not be a problem for long then.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

I think the idea was for non-unique summons, but your Lilith looks interesting. The easy way to make her disease-immune is to make her a Demon. It's thematic too.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

The three Gaths has a "summon Lilot" spell, which summons a "daugther of Lilith"

If you are going for a demon version of Lilith, consider opening that one up to all nations as well.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Hehehe, well Llama, ironically the Ettin, Cyclops, and Treant were all on my tentative list. :p

I may just start collecting notes for now, and when your mod comes out, perhaps you would consent to it being added to my "big game balancing package" mod? I would add some other summons as well, but if nothing else, the inclusion of your work would make the full mod that much more likely to come to fruition.

Also, some of those, like the Firebird perhaps don't have many slots? I had intended to look for somewhat humanoid forms for most (and I thought that was the best nerf for Air summons - to give them less slots), so that they would be truly thuggable (options for reinvig, resistance items, etc).

Oh and as far as the Ether Lord goes, I am intending to somewhat balance these summons relative to A) Bane Lord, 12 gems, and B) Elemental Royalty, 50 gems. The Ether Lord is just not very cost effective for 90 gems. I've completed over a dozen MP games, and almost every single game I have seen Bane Lords AND Royalty, not once have I seen an Ether Lord used.

And anyway, reiterating Llama's comment - I don't think there can be too many viable summons. If I were -only- adding summons to Astral, then it would be a stupid mod, but if every other path is getting useful stuff too, I hardly see how including Astral is an issue. The goal of my mod will not be to balance the relative usefulness of the paths, just to insure that you are not hamstrung completely by your path selection (or gem income! sometimes you get TONS of one type of gem, and nothing to spend them on - not for long now).

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

You know what I think...
I think this should be in the mod forum.

Jim I meant you could use something similar as an astral summon (maybe same sprite) but with better stats and summoned alone. "Ether" ehm... "something higher than Lord"

That was what you asked for right an idea for a new summon for astral? no me mentioning that ether spell just for fun?

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Hehe, I was also vaguely thinking of doing a big game balancing mod! :D

But yes, of course. The more awesome things we all make, the better. I think you can consider any mods I make to be open source.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Dominions Two had an Arch Angel astral summons that I really missed when I moved on to Dominions Three. It was a level 7 conjuration requiring astral five and 50 'pearls' to summon. It came with a bodyguard of five 'regular' angels. It's stats were nowhere near that of a Seraph being much more in line with a typical thug. What made it nice was that it had fire 3 and holy 4!

I miss my Arch Angels.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

They're still available as a Marignon and Pythium summon, judging from your description.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Hehehe sorry about that Aezeal, I thought you were just saying that Astral didn't need summons because of the Ether Lord, and other reasons. And I asked that this not be moved to the mod forum -yet- so I can get some preliminary ideas from the people who don't check into the subforum often, if ever.

And I agree, something like an Ether Duke, or something or other. :p Or maybe make Vastnesses summonable, or Visitors. One could argue that doing so would erode R'lyeh's uniqueness, but they'd be fairly expensive, and would allow R'lyeh access to them if they are having crappy luck with the Void Gate (yay, more Lesser Othernesses.....).

Going to start a tentative list in the first post, with ideas people have posted, and what I already had in mind. I'll list things like the Ettin (but not every summon from Llama's list) since it was already my starting point. It'll show up in about 10 minutes from this post. ;)

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Got distracted, and had trouble with a couple. Oh and you also took Shishi from me, Llama. :p Air was very troublesome, but I found a couple of things, and really, with your blessing Llama, I may just borrow yours, and let Air have less overall diversity, to appease the masses. ;)

Most of what I intend to do is going to be pretty straightforward, as long as I can get by with a minimum of graphical work (I am not above cannibalizing to get the job done!). I'll start drawing up stats tomorrow I think, and as long as this can get just a little more exposure out here, for other comments/submissions, then it can be moved to the mod forum very soon.

Thanks everyone. <3 And yes, I know Death doesn't "need", but I've had that image in my head for some time now, as an Enchantment summon, and I couldn't resist. :p

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

OK I'm not reading that first post but just trying to come up with some idea's myself

Astral:
- Ether Champion (allows for multiples of it and sounds strong in general.)
- (after having been in my earth section: ) Crystal Golem, could have luck (onebattle), eyeloss, horrormark (those last 2 are pretty extreme), resistances for everything if needed.
- Shapeshifter (multiple forms for multiple needs, could have any power, could have a thug version of it and a shapeshifter lord as SC version.)

Nature:
- Vine Giant. Could be anysize, could be any strength, could have a whole lot of abilities (reinvig, regen, entangle) and full slots.

Earth:
- Iron Golem (or some other metal golem) same as vine giant could be anysize, could have reinvig, high prot, any strength, trample, quite some resistances if needed, full slots.

Water:
- Living whirlpool (not something for slots, so not really what you wanted, could even be a unit not a leader) could be just powerfull and with a devour attack that can kill anything.

Air:
- living hurricane: same as above ... ok air elementals resemble this but this would be way more powerfull.. if you want to keep air somewhat balanced (not a fill scale SC) this could be an option as commander or leader.
- Thunderbird (has been done somewhere as a modded summon somewhere)

Earth/Fire:
- Awaken Vulcano: immobile vulcano which can attack with streams of lava upclose and shoot fiery boulders at range. A defensive powerhouse, could also be a mindless trooper needing a mage to control it.

Fire:
- Efreti (I've had them in a mod, just not as sc quality but could easily be anything you want) fire mage, heat, fire shield etc etc are all option.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Mmmm, I like the Crystal Golem. Maybe with a little work, could come up with a less generic identity for it, too.

The Adom is sort of like the Living Hurricane, but has some cool lore behind it, you should check it out on the webs! :D

For the Whirlpool, I wanted to completely avoid "aquatic only" summons. There are a number of useful ones that already get mostly avoided, since they are so hard for land nations to gain solid access to, and if you are aquatic you generally don't want to burn gems on stuff that can't crawl onto land when you're ready - at least, not after the early-mid game.

Ifrit seems popular, he was already in my little black book, and is definitely going into the mix in one form or another.

Also, a powerful shapeshifter could be a TON of fun. Give it multiple shapes with no intention of shifting in combat, but just a bit of uncertainty for the enemy as to which form he will attack in. Problem there is that something like that could be fairly challenging for me - this mod has a significant amount of content, but I am trying to work it out so as to minimize the effort required to achieve desired results. ;)

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Your list has lots of interesting stuff Jim.

If you suggested Shishi ages ago, on a thread in a similar vein to this, then yes, I stole it from you! I got lots of ideas from that thread actually.

I'll endeavour to make a bit of progress this weekend, in the gaps between thesis writing.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Creating summonable thug chasises has got to be the least imaginative way to "balance" paths. For example, I'd love to get some units that help with magical diversity, like an Earth summon with 4 randoms each F/E. Or how about summons with unique skills, like an Argus summons whose 100 eyes gives him Patrol-100. Or a water summon that causes unrest and cold scales in his current province.

I am not saying don't make thugs (especially if they have an interesting mythological background, of which Tolkein is only a mediocre example of), I am saying trying to use some creativity and imagination.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

I do not disagree with you that having imaginative thugs is good. However I would point out that the exercise here is not one of balancing paths but rather simply adding summonable thugs and super combatants such that there are greater options for people in larger games who are not first up to bat with getting the current uniques. This is not to say that balance should not be taken into serious consideration, but the primary intent is variety and options.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

I agree that there should be lots of variety. I suspect that Jim does too.

I've got quite a few odd things, not least the Wendigo that grows in size and power as it eats population, from initially human size to a huge giant. It grows faster if it takes part in battles (it devours the bodies).

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Omikron.. the problem with the sort of summons you mention is that they will probably never be used and that would be a waste of long hours of modding. (unless they are a usefull thug besides :D)

Ow I still like the sandworm btw, I've used it in my unfinished nomads and djinni mod. It could be a commander or a trooper, and basicly it's just there for it's devour attack so not a real SC but if it's a commander it could be kitted out.

The non attack sprite was just some vague lines (where it crawls under the earth, I had them in a roughly U form shape I think with some small lines beside in earthish brown but now I think of it it would be better in shadow (magenta)) and then an attack sprite with an open maw doing an attack that will kill nearly everything in 1-2 AoE. Size 6, high prot, fire res, flying (burrowing), lots of terrainsurvivals, siegebonus. --> it's huge siege bonus could put it in the niche category like omicron wanted.
And could of course have any number of other skills (regen, reinvig)
would be an earth summon of course :D

Heck I'm putting him in dom 3 K (well I already have my space eel which fills the same nice, but I just LOVE dune and it's a scifi mod so how could I've kept him out so long).. there is a critter that will at least still be usefull in the times of tanks etc since it will swallow everything and some more whole.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

PS some of the flavor texts are dom3K ish but the idea should be fine.

#newspell
#name "Capture Sandworm"
#descr "You pay a team of experts to capture and train a sandworm for your cause, like most mercs they like to be paid in earthgems. Your own powerfull earth magics are needed to divine a province where a sand worm could be found."
#school 1
#researchlevel 7
#path 0 3
#pathlevel 0 5
#effect 10001
#fatiguecost 1000
#damage 2410
#nreff 1
#end

#newweapon 765
#name "Devour"
#aoe 1
#dmg 999
#armornegating
#bonus
#nratt 2 --- to simulate it can swallow huge numbers of troops at once.
#att 0
#def 0
#len 0
#end


#newmonster 2410
#spr1 "./dominions 3000/2410_Sandworm_1.tga"
#spr2 "./dominions 3000/2410_Sandworm_2.tga"
#name "Sandworm"
#descr "The sandworm is one of the largest creatures known in the galaxy. It prefers to live deep under ground where it spends most of it's time burrowing. It attacks by swallowing whole regiments of troops or even multiple tanks at a time. Once devoured by a sandworm nothing can survive since the combination of the bowelmovements and extreme heat, which it uses to burrow through the ground, are deadly to everything. The Sandworm burrowing makes it tactical and strategical maneuverable like flying units."
#hp 300
#size 6
#ressize 6
#prot 20
#mor 15
#mr 18
#enc 3
#str 30
#att 13
#def 12
#prec 10
#mapmove 4
#ap 10
#gcost 100
#rcost 20
#itemslots 12288 -- two misc
#wastesurvival
#forestsurvival
#weapon 765 - devour
#trample
#regenerate 10
#stealth 5
#fireres 100
#coldres -50
#shockres -50
#flying
#siegebonus 100
#animal
#maxage 100000
#older 10000
#end


And this would be it. Insane high HP, high prot, high strenght.. I hope I don't need to explain those.
Fireres, since it's got high heat in itself.
Weakness to shock (It could be killed by giving each segment a shock)
Weakness to cold .. just to make is not so powerfull and it was also vulnerable to water. Stealth: it burrows, but not to much since it's still a huge beast.
High map move and flying.. the burrowing (the mapmove might be reduced since this is nearly the equivalent of a jet I think.)
Trample: it can trample I think, but if it uses this to much I'd remove it since the..
Devour attack: attacks 1 spaces for AoE 1 and should do damage there.
regen: I like durability :D
Siegebonus: burrowing helps a lot, not to mention ot could probably burrow right through the outerway and leave a gap for your army.
Animal: cus it's one (I do hope this doens't influence the sigebonus, just the regular siege effectifity.)
Att/def, not to high but a creature is used to it's natural weapons.
waste and forest survival becuase it can burrow there just as easily. Swamps are water which it shouldn't like, and mountains would be more of a problem I'm thinking.

Well it's probably not what you are looking for (but if you use it and redo the pics I might steal em... though I like these, they are decent enough) but I like them.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

10 earth gems? AOE 2 unresistable death? :shock:

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

wel'l.. it's no commander :D sort of like a tart :D.. ok MAYBE some more then.. but it's for dom 3K and there the spaceeel (15 gems) has the same attack but can also go into space and this one can't hence it's lower cost it can't be used on half of the map. Maybe I should make it 4-6 seperate attacks w/o AoE though so defence can protect you. Ow and it only has 2 slots so you can only give an amulet of luck and an amulet of regen.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

You could make it do say 40 damage, so troops would be munched just the same, but SCs would get at least some chance to swing back. Also make it normal damage, not AN.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Or AP if we wanna think of digestion acids :D

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Heh, yea. I was reading the description and thinking it aught to be more like 100 earth gems, at least.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Thanks guys, for your help. I was going to reiterate the responses to the couple people who seem to totally misunderstand the object of this project, but I realized - if they can't be arsed to actually read the rest of the thread, then they won't read my response. ;) And if they do just read my earlier posts, they'll understand the point! :happy:

And yes, while I want them to be as special as possible, bear in mind it will be my first mod, and is a bit ambitious, so if you want something really fancy to be included (like Llama's exciting Wendigo, or anything with multiple shapes?), then you'll really want to entertain the thought of coding it up yourself for inclusion.

I was thinking about the Crystal Golem last night, and I thought perhaps I will include a "Glass Golem" instead. You know how glass is still somewhat liquid, and "flexible" even when hard? He would have very high prot, and low HP, to simulate being very solid, but brittle. Could make a water version, the Aquarium Golem, who autosummons small sharks in combat, from inside his hollow body! (That part IS a joke, btw. ;))


Oh and just to clarify, what I am hoping to accomplish here, doesn't really overlap with things like Iron Dragons and such, I'm only interested in commander type units, who can be used with the flexibility of being able to operate alone if need be - and geared, though some may only have misc slots, they should be potent and useful nonetheless.


And anyways, since comments from non-mod-active people have grown less productive already - perhaps now is as good a time as any to move it to the other forum? Please, and thank you. :happy:

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

the sandworm could be a commander :D and IMHO (ow was it my idea :D) it's still the best idea in this thread. Not to mention he's very kewl as he pops up when he attacks, really looks like how it's supposed to be.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

First, I would generally agree with Omnirizon about a possibility of abuse and not a great need for this (except in certain cases of old nations which don't have national summons to fill this niche maybe). Still, it's an interesting idea on its own. My ideas on this are (some you may remember from previous discussions; I would prefer to exclude things which would be obviously nation-specific such as genie...):
Fire:
I would offer Salamander or Dragon first.
Another possibility would be either Talos which I mention later or more generic Golden Statue (with Earth, Mindless, heat aura...).
Some servant of Magma King is another possibility.
Earth:
Mechanical Giant/Clockwork Swordsman - generally, they are somewhat similar, with possible difference on Enc. Stats are better than Mechanical Men, full slots, mindless, no magic. As a variation of an idea I'm toying with thought of Talos - a bronze giant with molten copper for blood Daedulos made for King of Crete. But this should be Arcocephalos only...
Ushabti (or Scared Statue if we want to escape Egyptian name). A statue of your god enchanted to move, etc. It would be based on Living Statues, but sacred and maybe a priest.
Air:
First off, here we can place an archer thug - with either some magical bow or a natural missile attack. It could be either an undead (which I wouldn't like) or a denizen of either heavenly (as in Kailasa) or faerie realms. Of course, it should get a high Precision, plus better hp than humans and higher Str (as some magic missile weapons have Str-related stats). Att/Def may be average.
Stymphalian Bird is a variation on this - requires also Earth, flies and throws its copper feathers at enemies (stats as arrows, but multiple attacks and much ammunition). High natural Prot, misc slots only.
Another possibility would be someone like Vanherse/Sidhe Champion.
Water:
In addition to already mentioned aquatic thugs, I would offer a flying jellyfish - obviously, also requiring Nature or Air, non-magical, large, relatively brittle - but with multiple poisonous attacks.
It's also possible to get character version of Claymen or Alchemical Lion (forgot how it's called - character could use name of Abraxas or something similar).
Astral:
Here it gets tricky as Astral is already powerful in late game. It's possible to get something similar to weaker Devatas with a background of a reincarnated great warrior.
Another possibility would be a Champion of Grey Order ((?), the one which contains ethereal Astral mages and knights serving them produced at special site or appearing as a random event).
Nature:
Some largish Were-creature, of course. It may also be a transformation of the caster rather than summoning spell (I would generally prefer such a way for Nature and possibly Earth instead of summons - or maybe it would be enough to make a Transformation lower and cheaper).
Satha - a giant poisonous snake with mind and possibly additional attack (or defense) with something like Mesmerize.
Maybe Faerie Champion - weaker mage than Queen, but better combatant (or maybe place him in Air)...
Death:
Already has quite enough so I wouldn't add anything here.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Or make the weapon one attack at AoE2 instead of 2 at AoE 1.

That'd justify the low price :D

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Abuse, how? The intent of this mod is primarily for large games, of ~20 players or more where there is already abuse in the form of 3-4 people getting all unique SCs, and most other nations who didn't take Death on their pretender not having direct counters to them. You can argue that most of those nations have other options in communions and the like, and I will invite you to see how fast those armies can be devastated with a little Rain of Stones, or Bone Grinding. A well built SC requires gearable commander units to effectively neutralize - a skilled player should avoid or neuter other threats most of the time, I mean that is precisely what the basic SC is specifically designed for - army killing. Since we know that the basic concept of arming an SC to destroy entire armies works, and is commonplace - then we need to at least allow everyone in a large game, some sort of access to the tools to make SC killing thugs, if nothing else. I can't believe after my last post I felt the need to reiterate, but you put enough time into your own post, I felt obligated to try harder to reach mutual understanding. :p



The Salamander as far as D&D portrays it (not sure where folklore stands on this), rather than the almost useless Salamanders that Abysia can train? If so, I kind of like it, could modify the Lord of the Waves graphics fairly simply. As far as dragons, I wanted to avoid the cliche, and I feel that if Honeybadger ever finishes his dragons mod, they'll be wayyyyy more fun than just making cheapo pretender chassis knockoffs. Also, Fire is one path that desperately needs something to face up to other SCs, and dragons as implemented thus far in Dom3 cannot hope to do so. A magic weapon is a must, just for starters..... not just teeth. ;)


Actually, if you have seen Hellboy2 (I just did, fun film!), I was inspired by the soldiers in the Golden Army, which is generally much like you described. And, as you point out, something that screams "X nation specific" was generally something I tried to avoid, as per Talos. I will look into the Ushabti later though, and see if it is something I would adapt to general use, rather than it being reserved for C'tis.


Good point, I didn't conceive any of these as primarily intended for ranged use yet. But I wonder if that's what Air most needs? For example, I was going to build in as a drawback on the Archon, a lack of SR, so that he could not be used as a blocker for evocation spam without sacrificing gear slots for immunity to friendly fire. I will try to think on this - a creature that throws spines or something is pretty cool.


A flying jellyfish! Oh man now THAT is an image! The Visitor sort of already is such a thing, but this could be a very fun variant on that. Basically a giant gasbag with poison+fatigue damage. That's another I will chew on, I really like it. Making a larger version of the Vitriol Lion has potential - but as it is a spirit of acid, it should be F+W, and I am really trying to avoid cross-path stuff, as it drastically limits availability, and the goal of this mod specifically is to enhance accessibility.


Ohhhh, hmmmmm. The Shadow Seers, and the Eludians. Now that is another excellent idea. Before I get to building anything for Astral, I'm certainly going to put some concentrated thought in that direction, I think it has serious potential for awesomeness.


That's another fun thought, but do we have a way yet to mod a ritual with random effects such as that? A spell like "Induce Lycanthropy", which was a significantly more powerful version of Transformation, could be a lot of fun - though, it could get really painful trying to get N5 mages to sacrifice for it. Plus, the multiplication of the amount of work if I have to create (already have werewolves in the game) a werebear, a weretiger, a were-great-eagle, etc. I kind of like the snake, though my first guess is that it's not quite the thing for this mod, as for Nature especially, I want options for anti-SC duty as well as traditional army stomping SC duty, and anything like a snake is going to get creamed by an army of any real size (unless it's a giant stone-snake, oh hi there Sandworm :p but you would belong in Earth!).


Like I said, couldn't help myself. I'm trying to think of one interesting thing to add to Blood maybe. Definitely something very niche use, but a reason for Blood lovers to appreciate the mod as well. For example, the Death summon that I have in mind comes out of Enchantment, and quite high up it - for those with much Death who want to do something other than head straight up Conjuration.


And Aezeal, I will think about your Worm, but he needs some serious balancing for introduction to the base game, I think, and I'm not sure if I want a big giant thing for Earth that only gets misc slots..... we'll see. ;)

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Well a lot can be changed.. you could easily make him have 100 HP, no regen, 4 misc slots, only AoE 1 devour, higher or lower prot and of course.. higher price. And he fits the anti-SC role perfectly (it's what that attack is for you know). You could also make an "Old man of the Desert" unique with these more powerfull stats.

Desendant of Jormungandr: aquatic sea serpent of immense size and power.

Generic Beholders are a nice option too btw, can have all sorts of attacks etc. Not something for full slots though.
I know you all have something against using DnD stuff but really stealing idea's form dnd is exactly the same as stealing them from mythology (where dnd gets most of their idea's too in the end.. it's just naming after that)

Some sort of merman titan, with a water and a landshape, a nice powerfull trident and an enchanted net.

Does death already have a Cerberus summons.. would probably need to be unique but could be very nice. Might even be blood or nature though.. it only guards the gates to the underworld it's not undead as far as I know.

Personally I think the phoenix should get a non god version (and an upgrade at that)

Nature could have some sort of unicorn riding nymph or elf/fae lord. Combining power, abilities and extra attacks of the unicorn with full slots.

For astral some sort of strange void monster could be an option, based on the Cthulhu mythos maybe?

Anti SC summon but not a SC it self could also be a summons of a huge number of small creatures with a AoE 1, AN 1 dmg attack. An army could easily kill them, but a SC with a limit on his attacks would have more problems with that. (could be and army of ghosts, insects, small devils whatever you want for whatever path aoe to avoid def and AN to avoid armor is the key here.)

Of course you can just get mansized and formed heroes of high strenght. Real human heroes and mages. Archmages, master archers, master shinobi, mercenaries, the best gladiators. Stuff like that would fit Dominions 3 well I think since they are basicly most about humans and humansized pplz. With nice one battle spells and stuff.

PS I think were spells would be a good idea but you can't morph the caster and you can't pick different form.
Then again a spell were dragon would be nice you'd cast it on a random peasant (meaning no troop or commander disappears) and he'd be a normal or other sort of infantry (but as commander so he could have items) at start of battle but with a 2nd form of a dragon when killed, that would give some suprises.

Ow and for blood the best idea's are I think the not original sorts of vampire lords with multiple forms from some of the mods that already exist. Even more demons and devils isn't the answer at least.
A new horror might be fun though :D

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

I'm sorry for being a downer, but I'm kinda getting to known a lot about spell modding with CPCS project. Transformation and it's ilk are nearly completely unmoddable. You can't alter the Transformation spell in any way expect for school, gem cost, paths and level.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

I like this idea too. A vast size 6 flying jellyfish.

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Considering Transformation itself - I know that its actual effects are unmoddable as for now. But making it earlier and cheaper (And I also meant not requiring Nature 5 here) could be enough to provide Nature with adequate thugs. At the same time, transforming mage into a definite form is a thing which I consider to be both thematic and useful - so, until somebody comes with a way to mod it (I seem to remember someone making a code-digging for additional spell effects...) just consider it a lobbying for future inclusion of such possibility (of course, it's also possible to use a feature of summoning new unit while killing the caster - but this isn't the same).
To JimMorrison:
By Salamander I meant more of an alchemical Fire spirit than either DD or Abyssia version (DD one isn't that bad as a starter, though - just not very thematic. But then, it could be quite similar to already mentioned servant to Magma King).
As for SC killing I don't think that Fire is where we should look for it: a self-evident feature of fire creatures is either fiery attack or defensive fire (fire shield or heat aura). Any SC aimed to fight your armies and mages when you are known to have Fire is pretty sure to be immune to it. Of course, there is a possibility to use either Banefire or Acid as attack type - but you say that you don't want cross-path summons here... The only thing remotely close to Fire which could be effective against enemy SCs is making it a being glowing so brightly that attacking it could inflict blindness - on the other hand, we already have this in various angel-types... :(
Considering Air I think that it just shouldn't duplicate other paths, but concentrate on what it does best. And this points us to flying, glamour, missiles - and generally, to raiding. At the same time I think just making Great Eagle-type commander is useless: misc slots only it can't be made into an SC or strong thug and even with Air magic it would remain weak - useable as a commander of flying troops but not on its own... I seem to remember, though, that there is a depicting of astrological sign of December making it look like a centaur with wings. I don't remember how it's called offhand, but it may be a base for Air thug also... Still another variant is a Draconian mage (though lack of hands makes him not so usable as thug).
As for Hellboy - I don't like 4-color comicses, so I don't think I will ever see it. ON the other hand the idea itself is both old and viable. ;) And Ushabti I think isn't so specific an idea - sacred statues which suddenly come to life appear in many places...
On jellyfish - yes, precisely. :) I remember such beauties from the old game Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant. Actually, I think that playing it again may be useful just for picking up some interesting monsters... ;)
Shadow Seers - yes, name escaped me, but I think that building on what is already in the game makes it more easy to fit thematically. And they are cool as described...
Considering snake - well, "it never helps", but I just couldn't help it. :D ON the other hand, if it gets the poison like that of The Fang it can be pretty effective against SCs especially. Army may stomp it, of course - but this would also depend on which other features are implemented - armies seem to have not-so-easy time with Wyrm... ;)
As for Death - even in Enchantment, it already has both Lichcraft and Buried in Ice/Sand, which, while pricey, are very good thugs, bring troops and may add to magic diversity. :p I really don't see what may be added to it... But wait, there's more! (c) Baalz. Death allows you to bring dead hero back as a mummy! ;)
Blood may use something non-unique which isn't Vampire, though (as much as I like them, they are already in the game and doing quite well). A possibility that I see is something like a champion of Demon Knights. There are also many variable demons and Horrors, though most of them are quite specific, so should be nation-restricted...
There was a good thought about human heroes in Aezeal's post, too, even though it seems to go beyond the scope of this mod. (Cerberus is a good beast, but it is as correctly stated unique - and nation-restricted, too!) Inicorn, though, could be used even independent of rider - some authors even make them shapeshifters (though I don't remember tham as such in actual folklore)!

Re: SC and Thug Diversity Project
 

Burnsaber you could probably just change the results of the transformation though (replace those units) replace the least usefull of them with a SC and the spell gets better. Of course I've never used the spell and don't know if the results are used in other ways too.