.com.unity Forums - Nation Library

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- - Nation Library (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42291)

chrispedersen

February 15th, 2009 03:11 PM

Nation Library

Many times, multiple people would like to play the same nation.

If each nation were defined in a mod, the game moderator could add however many nations in each game.

For example, you could have two lankas in a game - and three ulms.

For the ulmish civil wars, I have done ulm. Would anyone else be willing to help out with this project?

Endoperez

February 15th, 2009 03:36 PM

Re: Nation Library

I did the same back in Dom2.

You don't have to adjust these:
1. Flags. As long as you can see what name corresponds to what flag, it shouldn't be too confusing.
2. National descriptions: already available, since the original nation also plays.

Nation-spesific pretenders and spells will be the most troublesome. There's no easy way to do pretenders. You have to copy each pretender choice and restrict it to the copied nation number. Same for national spells, but since you don't have to define a number for spells you don't have to make three different versions if there are four identical nations battling it out.

Aezeal

February 15th, 2009 04:46 PM

Re: Nation Library

well... there are those all are all nation mods.. you can just copy the wanted nation from one of those and give it any nation number you want and place it in the correct era again.

IMHO it's all already there.. copy paste edit nation number and era and you are done. If you can't find the all nations mod or whatever you call it I've also copy pasted that into the end of dom 3K so don't all nations in LA anymore so you could copy it from that too.. though the original should be easy enough to find.

About pretenders and nation specific spells I'm not sure how they are handled I'd suppose they have some solution for that too... arg I checked and obviously they just use the original nation numbers so there was no need for them to change that.. but your "new" copied nation will lack them..... so you'll have to do that too.

If everyone does one nation it will go fast anyway.. I'm not gonna do it though since I'll never use it myself :D sorry

Gandalf Parker

February 15th, 2009 07:35 PM

Re: Nation Library

Ive requested this many times.
Other than some of the modders commenting that it would be easy, I havent seen much effort. Pretenders and nation specific spells should be no problem since they can be duped and assigned to the nation number of the duped nation. However nation specific abilities such as LA Ermors undead might be harder.

The game does have a problem though with nations having the same name. So multiple Ulms would have to be Ulm_A, or Ulm_One, or Ulm_Alpha.

I have offered to host mega games of this type if anyone does the mods. Ultimate Ulm, Extreme Ermor, Arcos Apocolypse. I could script the changes once someone does a nation mod. Duplicate it many times into the same mod, change the nation numbers, assign unique nation names and colors for the score graphs.

We might need someone to generate a bunch of flags with different colors and I could script the chart color to match the flag colors. A generic flag would be best to move the project along since the could be used in mega-games of any nation (if other dupe-nation mods get made)

llamabeast

February 16th, 2009 07:08 AM

Re: Nation Library

Quote:

Ive requested this many times.
Other than some of the modders commenting that it would be easy, I havent seen much effort.

What a lazy bunch we must be.

This seems to me to be "trivial", in the sense that there's nothing actually hard to do, but nevertheless quite hard work (trivial is something mathematicians say about things which are too faffy to actually do). I'm not sure the rewards would be worthwhile. This is, after all, the first time that I know of that someone's actually organised a game with more than one of the same nation.

Gandalf Parker

February 16th, 2009 11:19 AM

Re: Nation Library

It has always truck me as being a great exercise for someone wanting to get into modding but not having a specific idea, or anyone totally in love with a particular nation. Trying to exactly duplicate a nation would give trials and tribulations which would be tutorial IMHO. And probably spark a whole list of ideas on what they would want to improve on for their next project.

Im also surprised there isnt more interest in duplicate nation games. There are some who feel they have the perfect Ulm strategy but people cant seem to agree on what that perfect strategy is. A game of exactly matching Ulms, or Arcos, or Ermors, etc would be a very different game.

I guess its pros and cons of such a great game. Maybe we have to wait another couple of years for more people to become interested in "interesting" game versions.

llamabeast

February 16th, 2009 01:19 PM

Re: Nation Library

IMHO, it would be about as dull an exercise in modding as one could conceive of (to my mind the fun in modding comes from seeing your new creatures and spells there on the battlefield), but there we are. Each to their own.

VedalkenBear

February 17th, 2009 08:59 AM

Re: Nation Library

Hmm. I might have time for this. Which nation do you want done first?

Also, I might be using Dom3 as the basis of a DoE project in Empirical Methods. If so, the results should be very useful to tweak the AI.

Aezeal

February 18th, 2009 12:53 PM

Re: Nation Library

Well I guess that means Gandalf will have to do it himself

I'll be awaiting the results :D

llamabeast

February 18th, 2009 12:59 PM

Re: Nation Library

What's DoE?

Gandalf Parker

February 18th, 2009 02:06 PM

Re: Nation Library

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aezeal (Post 675211)

Well I guess that means Gandalf will have to do it himself

I'll be awaiting the results :D

That might be a long wait. :)
I have many projects in the Map and Server categories which are higher on my list. Im moving thru them fairly quickly but the only mods I do tend to be either small or of more interest to me personally than this. This strikes me as mostly an MP mod. It also strikes me as a mod which would require occassional updates to stay current. Something I try to avoid.

So unless one of the "its really simple, do it yourself" suggesters provides a nice public domain example/template I will probably limit myself to encouraging others, and offering to host the results. ;)

lch	February 19th, 2009 04:38 AM

Re: Nation Library

Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 674710)

(trivial is something mathematicians say about things which are too faffy to actually do)

It's mathematician's code for "do it yourself if you really care", yes. With a bit of "it doesn't take much brains to do it, but it's time-wasting labor, and it bores me to tears".

pyg	February 24th, 2009 10:06 AM

Re: Nation Library

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 674581)

I've had mostly the same idea. Of particular interest to me is a game where all the banned nations can fight it out.

I disagree with the other posters that it's a trivial exercise. Duplicate copied nations have to be cleared and everything added back in including recruitables, fortresses, nationals, dom effects, pretenders, PD, etc. But once all that has been figured out and written down somewhere it is trivial to whip up a mod with the duplicate nations.

I have some interest in helping with the project, mostly with the automation part of it which I'm currently developing in python.

Gandalf Parker

February 24th, 2009 11:51 AM

Re: Nation Library

Edi's database covers that much of that territory. Listing the units per nation. And possibly the pretenders.

Python would be a good choice for such a program.

Gandalf Parker
--
per peer-pressure preoccupation
My maps, mods, and mullings can be found at
http://www.Dom3Minions.com

chrispedersen

February 24th, 2009 05:33 PM

Re: Nation Library

Doh, wish I had known that... I did it manually.

pyg	February 26th, 2009 03:26 PM

Re: Nation Library

So I have a prototype now with dmg (DomModGen) I used chrispedersen's UlmCivilWar mod as an example and wrote the equivalent of his second nation (Tolkein's) with dmg classes and methods. The last couple of lines wrap the nation in a mod and printing it lets you >file.dm or |more to test. This example is included in the dmg.zip if you want to mess with it. I've included variable names and snipped text for readability. Anyway just applying a loop, incrementing the slot, and changing name could generate chris's mod. Seems to be missing unique pretenders unless LA Ulm doesn't have any.... and dmg is missing it because there has not yet been a need ;) This has not been well tested so bugs are probable but I started a game with it and it looked Ulmish.

Code:



#!/usr/bin/env python                                                                                                       

from dmg import D3MNation, D3M



era = 3

slot = 73



LA_Ulm = D3MNation(era,

                   slot,

                   name = "CountVonTolkien",

                   brief = "Ulm is a human kingdom... snipped ...trade in the arcane.",

                   summary = "Race: Stocky humans... snipped ...Priests: Weak.",

                   flag = None)

LA_Ulm.add_units([482,1013,1014,1015,1017,1034])

LA_Ulm.add_commanders([1016,1018,739,740,1023,1012])

LA_Ulm.set_PD(defcom1 = 1016,

              defcom2 = 739,

              defunit1 = 1013,

              defunit1b = 482,

              defunit2 = 1024)

LA_Ulm.add_site("The Ruined Keep")

LA_Ulm.add_site("Black Forest")

LA_Ulm.add_site("The Black Temple")

LA_Ulm.set_forts(castleprod = 25,

                 startfort = 3,

                 defaultfort = 8,

                 farmfort = 3,

                 forestfort = 35,

                 mountainfort = 6,

                 swampfort = 11)

LA_Ulm.set_startarmy(startcom = 1016,

                     startscout = 1018,

                     startunittype1 = 1013,

                     startunitnbrs1 = 8,

                     startunittype2 = 1015,

                     startunitnbrs2 = 8)

LA_Ulm.copy_national(spell = "Sanguine Heritage",

                     new_name = "Tolkien's Taking",

                     new_desc = "And so it is given, One from another, for time immemorial.")



new_mod = D3M(era = era, modname = "LA_Ulm Test")

new_mod.add_nation(LA_Ulm, slot = slot)



print new_mod

chrispedersen

February 27th, 2009 02:24 AM

Re: Nation Library

You guys never cease to amaze me.

I did make a bug in the original mod (obviously not your fault). The corrected mod adds 4 new spells, you can grab it from the Ulm Civil War thread.

Note however I was lazy on the spell descriptions.

pyg	February 27th, 2009 01:47 PM

Re: Nation Library

1 Attachment(s)

I hope it's not abuse to paste in another big chunk of code, but I rewrote the ulm.py example to actually do chrispedersen's whole mod in 46 lines although some of the description text is snipped. This is the terse version. I've attached the actual output as ulm.dm.zip.

Code:

#!/usr/bin/env python                                                                                                       

# -*- Mode: Python; tab-width: 4 -*-                                                                                        



from dmg import D3MNation, D3M



era = 3

slot = 72

players = [("BlackChris", "BlackChris"),

           ("Tolkien", "CountVonTolkein"),

           ("CountSzendry", "CountSzendry"),

           ("SteurmMithras", "SteurmMithras"),

           ("PrinceLaveare","PrinceLaveare"),

           ("AdjuctantDedas","Adjuctant Dedas"),]

new_mod = D3M(era=era, modname = "UlmCivilWar")



for player, nation in players:

    LA_Ulm = D3MNation(era, slot, nation,

                       brief = "Ulm is a human kingdom... snipped ...trade in the arcane.",

                       summary = "Race: Stocky humans... snipped ...Priests: Weak.")

    LA_Ulm.add_units([482,1013,1014,1015,1017,1034])

    LA_Ulm.add_commanders([1016,1018,739,740,1023,1012])

    LA_Ulm.set_PD(1016, 739, 1013, 482, 1024)

    LA_Ulm.add_site("The Ruined Keep")

    LA_Ulm.add_site("Black Forest")

    LA_Ulm.add_site("The Black Temple")

    LA_Ulm.set_forts(25, 3, 8, 3, 35, 6, 11)

    LA_Ulm.set_startarmy(1016, 1018, 1013, 8, 1015, 8)

    LA_Ulm.copy_national(spell = "Sanguine Heritage",

                         new_name = player + "'s Taking",

                         new_desc = "And so it is given, One from another, for time immemorial.")

    LA_Ulm.copy_national(spell = "Iron Darts",

                         new_name = player + "'s Darts",

                         new_desc = "And so it is given, One from another, for time immemorial.")

    LA_Ulm.copy_national(spell = "Iron Blizzard",

                         new_name = player + "'s Blizzard",

                         new_desc = "And so it is given, One from another, for time immemorial.")

    LA_Ulm.copy_national(spell = "Pack of Wolves",

                         new_name = player + "'s Wolves",

                         new_desc = "And so it is given, One from another, for time immemorial.")

    LA_Ulm.copy_national(spell = "Sloth of Bears",

                         new_name = player + "'s Bears",

                         new_desc = "And so it is given, One from another, for time immemorial.")

    new_mod.add_nation(LA_Ulm, slot)

    slot += 1

print new_mod

chrispedersen

February 27th, 2009 02:18 PM

Re: Nation Library

Hmmm... I *think* I'm willing to keep working on this with you pvg. We can include the NationalLibrary as part of ChrisCBM...

If we do one nation a day.. well be done in two months....

Endoperez

February 27th, 2009 02:38 PM

Re: Nation Library

If you do EA Kailasa next, you could get a proof-of-concept game underway. Omnirizon, RDonJ, Hadrian II and Executor have expressed interest in all-Kailasa game. Look at page 5 of the "Kailasa guide" thread on the main forum, if you haven't already.

Nice work, both of you. I might help with a couple of nations, but not right now. I'm away from my Dominions installation for a week.

chrispedersen

February 27th, 2009 03:30 PM

Re: Nation Library

Yeah, I'm willing to do that. I'll post in that forum.
I'd be kind of interested in that game as well but I'm at my limit of 5.

Endo, you interested in taking over for Fakey in Human War - he has a solid position.

Endoperez

February 27th, 2009 04:55 PM

Re: Nation Library

Sorry, but I won't have access to my Dominions installation for at least a week. I already have plans for my winter break: snes emulator and Chrono Cross. That damn Golem! ;)

pyg	February 28th, 2009 12:15 PM

Re: Nation Library

So I'm feeling quite good about Kailasa and LA Ulm being reasonably good copies now. I would appreciate any tips about how to remove pretenders from a nation choice as that is currently the only known bug... maybe we can call it a feature ;) Would very much appreciate testing and bug finding.

I think I can do new nations in about 30 minutes to an hour now that I have the hang of it. It's a lot of reference jumping, between the manual, the game, the database, and various other mods and posts. Also there isn't support for dominion effects yet which will take a little more time to implement when I get to a nation with it. Kailasa and LA Ulm don't have any right?

If people would like to start more multi same-nation games I currently have energy to do up the nations before the game. This offer expires in two weeks as I will be quite busy then till next winter. These games don't have to be limited to just one nation. You could 3 of one and 5 of another and 4 of another. Could do Era wars or something EA -vs MA -vs- LA of a given nation...

chrispedersen

February 28th, 2009 01:14 PM

Re: Nation Library

Bravo pyg, is all I can say...
But if you want a suggestion - start with late age. Fewest nations in that age and it might encourage others to help. Although, 30 minutes is pretty amazing.

lch	February 28th, 2009 01:34 PM

Re: Nation Library

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyg (Post 677340)

See your problem before... give the pretender you want to remove from the pool a tag to be a restricted god for independents, nation number 25 or something?

pyg	March 1st, 2009 12:04 AM

Re: Nation Library

Just to show how simple it is to put a mod together with this new framework, the following snippet creates a mod of 3 Kailasa and 3 LA Ulm players. The posted version of dmg.py has not been updated yet, and won't be for a bit as I'm still working on it.

Code:



#!/usr/bin/env python                                                                                                       

# -*- Mode: Python; tab-width: 4 -*-                                                                                        



from dmg import D3MNation, D3M

from dmg_nations import *



era = 1

new_mod = D3M(era = era, modname = "AnyAny Kailasa/Ulm")

new_mod.remove_default_nations()

new_mod.add_nation(EA_Kailasa.get("My Kailasa", None))

new_mod.add_nation(EA_Kailasa.get("No, My Kailasa", None))

new_mod.add_nation(EA_Kailasa.get("Going Bananas", None))

new_mod.add_nation(LA_Ulm.get("CountCountCount", None))

new_mod.add_nation(LA_Ulm.get("Ulm, are you, ulm, sure?", None))

new_mod.add_nation(LA_Ulm.get("ULM FANATIC", None))

print new_mod

pyg	March 1st, 2009 12:41 PM

Re: Nation Library

Well I'm certainly filling up this thread with my thoughts... so I'll just keep doing that!

If only been modding for about a week and am still learning a lot. I've recently become mostly certain that there is no way to copy certain dominion effects of certain nations inc. LA Ermor, LA R'yleh, MA C'tis, MA T'ien Ch'i, and probably a few others I don't know about. If so, I am not as interested in this project anymore as it means it will be permanently incomplete. I also have certain other complaints, like why only 799 newmonster unit ids? I'm bending over backwards to work with such a limited range. Why not, for example, a 64 bit integer or (~800 < something < infinity). Many other modding variables also have very narrow ranges. Wow, I really sound whiny.

Anyway my random nation generator using units from the independents is still pretty fun.

lch	March 1st, 2009 01:34 PM

Re: Nation Library

As for the "why those limitations on the available ID ranges", because that would directly increase turn processing times, everywhere. The game loops through those available IDs in a lot of places during turn processing. Before you can expect to have almost no limits to modding, there would have to be better data structures in the game.

Endoperez

March 1st, 2009 06:38 PM

Re: Nation Library

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyg (Post 677537)

I also have certain other complaints, like why only 799 newmonster unit ids? I'm bending over backwards to work with such a limited range. Why not, for example, a 64 bit integer or (~800 < something < infinity). Many other modding variables also have very narrow ranges. Wow, I really sound whiny.

Only 800? Wow, that has really dwindled down. I wonder how many units have been added since release?

Any way, most modding limits could be circumvented if there was an easy way to separate mods by age. As an example, if mod doesn't use any Early or Middle age nations, that's several hundred unit IDs that are now free. I don't think anyone has made a list that shows what IDs are only used in a spesific era, but it shouldn't be too difficult.

I think LA Ermor can be duplicated, after the last public patch. It added commands for lots of dominion-related things. You are right, though, there are many small and not-so-small dominion effects that are often forgotten about. Abysia spreads heat outside their dominion, some nation(s) does the same for cold, Arcoscephale gets better scout reports inside friendly dominion, MA Agartha's dominion increases hitpoints of constructs...

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