CBM Cavalry
 

I'm wondering what everyone's favorite CBM cav unit is. I've been scanning over some of the cost changes in the mod and a few things have already jumped out at me:

1. Serpent Cataphracts. Already a decent unit, they get a 25% cost reduction and their resource cost cut almost in half. 45 gold and 29 resources for, essentially, nearly 40 HP at 17 prot with decent defense, a 15 damage range 3 animal attack, and a beast form with (if memory serves) -more- morale than the original. Please, sir, may I have some more?

2. Royal Guard. A universal 40% reduction puts these guys in an odd position. While lance-less and with slightly below average protection for their weight class, they pack kite shields which dovetail beautifully with the mass of bolts that Marignon likes to throw out and they also carry an enormous 19 defense.


Honorable mention goes to the Equite. While their stats are still nothing to write home about, they got a significant cost reduction. Decent move and a light lance gives a powerful one-shot flank option.


I've always considered cav units to be something of a niche/luxury, but CBM looks like it's out to change that.

Any other contenders for CBM heavyweights?

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

I like Marverni's Eponi Knight in CBM.

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

I don't think the Serpent Cataphract isn't quite that good, since the riderless serpent doesn't stick around after the fight.

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

Forgot to mention the 3(!) enc on cataphracts .. which seems a bit strange.

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

There is no Melee Enc from gear on cavalry. Apparently, mounts will never tire out faster, no matter how much steel you strap to their back. ;) So the 3 Enc, is Base Enc for the unit.

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

My favourite cavalry in vanilla has always been La Tien Chi's Ancester Vessels with a W9 bless. Those guys really rock and give that cavalry feeling of a unstoppable charge that smashs anything in there way, rather like the Rohan cavalry charge in LoTRs Return of the King.

I have not really looked at CBM cavalry but those royal guard/serpent cataphracts look interesting, I will put it on my, 'to look into list'.:)

I like the graphics for Jomon cavalry, (the banners are nice, when you have a bunch of them) but they are not very effective on the battlefield or easily massed. Has CBM improved those or are we waiting for K.O.'s new Jomon in a future patch?

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

Actually, most heavy cavalry units have base encumberance 5 instead of 3 (base human). So the horses do tire a bit faster, but the serpents don't.

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

Aren't Serpents Cold-Blooded? If no, they should be...
As for cavalry as such, I like Tien Chi ones (or Sauromatia), with composite bows and light lances. You just can't compete with their sheer versatility...

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

If serpent cataphracts count, I'm nominating Machaka's spiders. Because they are just that awesome.

I've also always had a soft spot for Black Knights/Templars.

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

I should've mentioned the Tien Chi cav! The cost stayed about the same, but their base precision went from 8 to 10, so they effectively got a 3 point boost. Very, very nasty little buggers.

Jomon's cav got an enormous boost. They picked up a second attack; warhorse hoof as opposed to regular hoof and a price drop. Unfortunately, they were so dismal in the first place and the rest of Jomon's troops got a significant cost reduction that they're still kind of lost in the shuffle.

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

I still do not understand why people badmouth Jomon cavalry. The deal is, it is marvelously -resource- efficient. For the same resources, you can have either 1 archer, 1 no-dachi, or 1 cavalry. That cavalry has far superior damage potential in almost any given scenario. They are 3x the gold cost sure, but that's the only reason you build anything else, ever.

Sure, later game, cavalry all share certain vulnerabilities, but in Jomon's case, many of their vulnerabilities are shared with the infantry - but are less pronounced in the cavalry, due to speed in closing with the enemy, and in their high defense skill once in melee.

So yeah, Jomon cav are my favorite cav. <3 Though, having recently discovered the Ancestor Vessels, they are close. ;) Also played around with MA TC's sacred cav a bit, and they were very fun - except in Fall when I saw they had like 6hp. :(

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

I think the animosity towards Jomonese cav is the single attack + lack of shield. They're a pretty nice unit now, but I'd like to see them with a no-dashi instead of a katana.

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

I don't think you can adequately manipulate a "field sword" from the back of a horse. Now, if they had a Naginata.....

And I totally agree, there'd be little purpose for them, without the Hoof attack. I don't recall when they lacked it (I didn't know the game well when I first fell in love with the nation, thematically), but now, in relation to the resource intensity of anything they can muster, the cavalry is a very solid choice for many applications.

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

No, none of the serpent riders have the cold-blooded attribute. Cavalry attributes are based on the rider, not the mount.

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

By the way, Jomon cavlry should probably retain a normal hoof. Just compare Japanese horses with West European or Miseastern ones... ;) To offset this, they should probably be somewhat cheaper. As for naginatas - yes, probably (actually, better still to introduce nagamaki). They certainly almost never used proper lances (began to do so only after contact with Europeans)...

Re: CBM Cavalry
 

I've been looking over CBM Jomon a bit as a result of the debate and it seems like they're ripe for new analysis. Under CBM, they look to have the following going for them:

1. Total reworking of the conjuration tree: Just about all their national summons got a ton of love. Ujigami/kenzoku had their costs dropped a little and the research level reduced enormously. They're now conj 2/4. High HP (for humanish units), sacred, ethereal, awe for the kenzoku and excellent all-around stats. Oni generals are still kind of mediocre but went from 20d to a bargain basement 6d. Ghost generals are pretty hot, with fear and ethereal for 6d. Jigami are now 8n and research 0 - more on that in a minute. Dai tengu went from 55 to 35 which gives you easy access to highly mobile air casters to shore up you shield-less but otherwise excellent national troops, though this can also be done with relative ease with communions.

2. National troops: It's probably evidence of my foolishness, but I dislike samurai archers. They're too resource intensive to mass like longbows, the longbow itself is less attractive during the armor heavy LA, and while they're competent in melee, you're paying for a jack-of-all-trades that is, as always, a master of none. You'll also want to be throwing down archer-hate of your own since crossbows make you very sad and relying on your own archers limits your options here. Additionally, every samurai archer means you didn't recruit an Aka-Oni or a Hatamoto. I've got a little schoolgirl crush on both of these units. They both benefited from a sizable resource cost drop and have excellent attack and respectable to excellent damage output (17 vs 19) trading off protection for defense and mapmove. What I like about the hatamoto and what I've been messing around with is fear/repel synergy.

Assuming you take magic 1, a virtual certainty with Jomon, each jigami you drop is going to come with 5 research for 8 gems, putting them on par with an owl quill forged without a hammer. Crappy ROI straight up, but they're research 0 meaning you can snag them far earlier, giving them more time to generate research. That being said, the things they can do in a lab are pretty secondary. In the field, they give you 3 gems worth of supplies (hammer-forged bag of wine). What they're really good for though is spamming out wooden warriors (a must-have for Jomon) sleep cloud and wonderful, beautiful panic.

Getting into death magic is pretty easy for Jomon since you'll be searching every path but death with your national mages, giving you good odds on cross path sites. Jomon's also got some awesome options for a limited number of death gems. Ghost and Oni Generals for 6 a pop, flaming skulls make your national mages exceedingly happy, and giving a Kenzoku an Implementor Axe nets you a 14 gem critter with ethereal, fear and awe who can easily stand with your frontline, soaking hits and letting the fear aura degrade morale all around. On top of all that, you've got a durable and cheap Ujigami with a massive standard bonus and high morale national troops which effectively eliminates any worries about your constant terror spamming doing some friendly fire damage. About the only morale damaging spells you don't have access to as Jomon are the blood line and wailing wind.

Remember the Hatamoto from a few paragraphs back? The 15 attack length 3 no-dashi wielding Hatamoto? Now that we're playing morale-wars, anything they can't repel is either carrying a shield/spear and not intimidating 17 prot or is swinging its 10-11 attack vs your 11 defense while you roll 15 vs something much closer to 8. I like those odds.


Okay, I've gotten badly off topic, but I did warn you that I've got a crush on this now.


What I can't quite put my finger on for Jomon is pretender/scales. On the one hand, you've got some very nice sacred summons and an earth bless is certainly attractive, but your recruitable sacreds are nothing to write home about. A water bless would make buffed tengus (wooden warriors, strength of giants, all the usual suspects) a frightening prospect and would open up some fun options for ranged weaponry on your cheap sacred commander summons (quickened 16-18 precision bows of war firing at troops who just had destruction spammed at them) ... but it's a water blessing. You've got some pretty resource heavy troops, so a little production's a must and with no worries on old age or supplies, death looks like a pretty good place to come up with points ... but that's where it stops being easy.

On the one hand, you need gems like you need a spot on the last chopper out of Saigon, so luck/turmoil looks good. On the other hand, your mages aren't exactly expensive but being non-sacred, the upkeep will add up. Your troops are also pretty cheap gold-wise, but you'll want to be putting up a lot of castles. At the same time, ransacking death for points makes low luck/misfortune pretty unappealing.

Your starting troops suck and you don't really have any stellar options for early expansion, so a SC pretender is a thought. You really need some death on the pretender to avoid empowering though, and that means you're either spending a ton for 2-3 points of death or you're going with a ghost king. Celestial Generals now summon excellent arrow-catchers and are respectable in a fight out of the box, but then we're giving up a major blessing and you're looking at earth/death/air on your pretender.
I actually sort of like the Lord of Plenty. A 6e2s2d Lord lets you take 5 dom, 1 turmoil, 2 prod, 3 death, 3 luck, 1 magic. This nets you a decent minor bless, a little help for early expansion once you toss some gear on him and 4 gems a turn, including 2 astral which you have no initial income of but desperately need.

Finally, your late game options are a little sketchy. I've really got no clue what to do here.