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[This guide is based on CBM]
EA Arco, the golden era. This isn’t your Arco of later eras with regimented phalanxes and rows of communion mages, this is the time of Hercules. Think heroes and legendary monsters and mage-engineers forging wings that should not fly too close to the sun, the gods taking personal interest in the affairs of men - now you’re getting into the right mindset for this nation. Now, this wasn’t just a flavorful introduction, it’s very important that you get into a different mindset for EA Arco than you would for it’s later two eras as it plays strikingly different. EA Arco is a land of making mutually exclusive choices, you’re going to have to decide which Arco you’re going to play at the point you’re making your pretender. This guide explores one particular angle, but there are few nations with so clearly marked different paths, you certainly could be effective going a different angle. That said, I’ll go ahead and tell you that I’m going to mostly ignore 3 reasonably effective units because they don’t fit this angle. The Myrmidon, chariot, and Icarid can all be pretty good units if you treat them right, the problem being that they’re fairly resource intensive. The philosopher unit has a unique attribute that it gets +1 research point for each level of sloth. That’s great, research bonus for gaining design points! The catch is that the real cost of taking sloth scales is effectively deciding not to use these three units in a serious way. I’ll be talking about them in more detail in a bit, realize how much more you could get out of them if you took production scales. I, however, am choosing the philosopher – he’s just too tempting when packaged with the 240 design points for swinging from production-3 to sloth-3. With a magic-1, sloth-3 scale those 50 gold philosophers are spitting out a jaw dropping 9 research points. Now, the beginner might look at that and think the 9 was the important number. It’s not, the important number is 50. That 50 means we can have extremely competitive research while spending almost no gold. Let’s take this idea and run with it. Since we’re taking sloth-3 scales lets see what we can accomplish recruiting almost nothing in the first year. The first leg of this plan is to have a pretender who can come out of the gate fearsomely on turn 1. This means with no research or items, somebody who can keep on clearing indies at a steady pace. Additionally, as we’re going to be running light on troops we really want somebody whose power will scale up as the game goes on so he doesn’t loose all usefulness once real armies start showing up. Now, there’s a couple different pretender chassis that fit this bill, but most of them also require having a dominion score high enough to give them awe. Rather than trying to sacrifice my scales for a dominion score I don’t really otherwise want, I’m gonna pick the great white bull. Now, the bull doesn’t need awe, but he does really need some earth magic. Taking the great white bull I can afford 4E 4N, a dominion of 5 and Order-3, Sloth-3, cold-1, death-1, luck-3, and magic-1. The earth component is critical for a couple of reasons. Right off the bat it gives him +4 protection, bringing his berserk protection up to 16. Against spear wielding humans the difference between a 12 protection and 16 is *huge* it’s going to reduce the amount of damage you take by an order of magnitude. A 12 protection is kind of iffy for initial expansion, 16 you’ve got no problem against most of the stuff you’ll see in inides. Stay away from barbarians, lizards, wolf tribe & heavy cavalry and you’ve really got nothing to worry about with all those hitpoints. Now, the initial troops you start out with are not great, but they’re actually not completely worthless once you lay a sermon of courage on them. Turn one recruit as many slingers as your resources allow and prophetize your initial champion and between your javelins and slings you should be able to take out a couple of the low protection, shieldless indies. You’ll take some casualties each fight, but that’s ok you only need to take 2 provinces, if you can take 3 with these troops consider it a solid success. If your luck bums out and you lose to your first indie that’s not great, but not the end of the world either because your raging bull is unstoppably stomping around (unstoppable referring only to light/medium indies at this point!). While these two squads spend the first few turn expanding you’re making (practically free) philosophers and (not so free) Wind Riders. Wind Riders are pretty expensive, but you won’t have any problem affording as many as your resources allow as this will only be 5-8 or so in the first 3 turns. That’s ok, that’s all you want. Whenever your initial (non-pretender) expansion party grinds down to a useless nub bring your prophet back to collect the wind riders. If you got unlucky and your prophet bought the farm, recruit a Wind Lord instead. This handful of wind riders with the modest blessing you’ve got is *bad **** for clearing indies, other than exceptionally strong indies they can clear everything. Meanwhile those philosophers have made it to alt-2 and your bull god is now throwing down a stoneskin (and shortly ironskin) which bumps him up to the level that he can also take out almost any indies. B-line both these expansion squads over to the nearest farmlands, there’s a very good chance you can grab the closest ones before your neighbors. After you’ve sent out those wind riders you’re going to only be recruiting philosophers. At 50 gold a pop, you’re essentially not spending any money while your research blazes on at the head of the pack. Your 2 expansion parties are both plenty strong enough to snatch the high population indies, and your scales are retarded good – and being spread to everything you conquer by either your god or your prophet. You should have enough money to start construction on your second castle by turn 6 or so, and roughly enough to put a new one up every turn after that. Your income, in fact should be so good that very shortly you’re able to continue putting a castle up per turn while you start doing other things. Now, I wanted to talk for a minute about castle site selection. Most of the time in dominions you want to take the cheapest castles you can so that you can get as many of them as possible so you can get as many mages as possible. True, that’s an important part of why we’re doing this, but it’s not the only goal. These forts are an investment. Many people overlook the income bonus from forts, which can be quite significant over the long term. A fort increases the income of a province by the percentage of it’s administration value divided by two. Let’s say you put up a forest ramparts with an administration value of 10 in some woods with a population of 5000 and an income of 50. That fort would then generate 2.5 gold per turn. Lets say you put a fortified city with an administration of 50 on a nice farmland with a 20000 population and an income of 200, that fort would generate 50 gold per turn. So, not counting the time value of having a fort up sooner the fortified city (which cost 400 gold more) pays for itself in 8 turns at which point it’s generating a profit for the rest of the game. This sort of investment can make a significant difference if you’re putting a fort up early in year one, it’s not unlikely that gold gain will be thousands per fort over the course of the game on the nice provinces. This gain is even greater with good scales. Most of the time you can’t afford that extra 400 gold in year one, but the philosophers allow us to do it while maintaining our research pace. We’ve got gold and no super urgent need to grow our research, so lets make some investments. Targeting the highest population provinces first (and gold/gem mines, arenas, etc!) your forts start sprouting like mushrooms. Since you’re not recruiting troops and the upkeep for your philosophers is negligible you’re going to fairly quickly get to the point that you can put up a castle per turn and still pile up the gold. At this point (should be inside of year one) you’re done recruiting philosophers. Whenever you begin to lament the waste of not using your philosophers look at all those castles you have and the money you can’t figure out how to spend fast enough and remember it’s not a waste, that investment is paying fat dividends the rest of the game. Why do we start ignoring the philosophers who have treated us so well? Because the centerpiece of EA Arco is also cap only, you’re going to only recruit Oreiads from now on. It’s really a shame, EA Arco has several very nice units which are cap only, but they never see the light of day because they’re totally eclipsed by the Oreiad. Your first couple Oreids are going to head out site searching. Oh, and did you notice yet that Arco’s labs only cost 250 gold? Put labs in all those castles sprouting up and start cranking out the mystics. You will have a *lot* of mystics (this is where the majority of that fat income you generated is going to go all game), so you’ll have plenty which are 2e, 2w, or 2f, and of course they’re all at least 1S so you’ve got a powerful battery of site searchers you’ll be leveraging. Meanwhile, your Oreaids are doing solid job manually searching N and A with a trickle of W & E thrown in. You should have a very strong gem income to match your strong research and strong gold income. Those philosophers are going to make short work of the early research. Your Bull God was most of the way towards being invincible with just iron skin, but once you add in earthpower and personal regeneration he’s going to have no problem splattering anything short of a real army or a SC counter. Your philosophers will have no trouble clearing this bar inside of year one and well ahead of any fighting with other players. For big fights you’ll want to add in some support mages to buff him. I know what some of you were thinking “The Great Bull? Come on, he’s useless after clearing the indies, he can’t be effectively used against a real army like I would with a kitted out titan!”. Well, to that I say bull. Summon earthpower gives him all the reinvig he needs, fatigue from trampling varies a lot but you’ll be perpetually low fatigue. Throwing invulnerability down will bring him to a nice round 30 protection while berserking. In a solid dominon he’ll have over 300 hitpoints, and having laid down personal regeneration will be essentially unkillable by the method of poking him with sharp things. Having self-buffed iron will and hanging an amulet of antimagic off one horn he’s got an in-dominion MR close to 30. With support mages laying down luck, body ethereal, quickness, haste, gift of flight he turns into something I guarantee will cause nightmares in your enemies (note, you’ve just quadrupled his movement which gives him a devastating attack but also causes him to get ahead of his reinvigoration. Skip that part for huge armies where you expect a long fight. Trust me though, not much will last long enough for it to matter). You’ve still got a free misc slot so stick a ring of tamed lighting or whatever seems appropriate given your opposition on his tail and tell me again how he can’t be effective against real armies. I also wanted to point out that a variation of this same trick is quite effective using chariots. Given your sloth scale chariots are your goto unit when you need to recruit something outside of your capital, and as long as you’re using them make sure to double their effectiveness by dropping haste. As the game progresses tossing in mass flight and quickening is devastatingly effective as a side strategy (as in where your opponent is not dropping storm or fielding chariot counters like anything size 4 or higher). Because they’re fairly easily countered you’re not going to want to lean on them too heavily, but trotted out every now and then they can be a devastating surprise. As long as we’re on the subject of flying troops lets look at the Icarids. These guys have the potential to be everything Caelum wishes its infantry was. They’re size 2 along with a reasonable weapon and strength. The strength of flying units (aside from strategic movement flexibility) is the ability to swarm which is greatly improved by being size 2 vs size 3. Toss on a strength of giants (and later weapons of sharpness & quickening) along with mass protection and these guys start looking a lot like something your opponent would rather not have jumping into his flank. You’ll probably be disappointed with them if you try and use them without mage support or against very stout opposition, but that’s ok, this is another side strategy you’ll just use when it seems like a good idea. Rounding out your air force are the wind riders. As your castle building frenzy levels off you’ll want to steadily recruit these guys. You’ll never have enough of them to be central to your strategy, but they are awesome heavy raiders and will contribute greatly to the threat vector your opponent has to worry about. Your first inclination is probably to recruit wind lords to lead them. That would be a good idea if it didn’t mean you had to do without an Oreiad that turn. Instead, send them out in groups of 10 with a priestess with flying boots and a thistle mace. Not only can she bless them, she also can lay down wooden warriors then spam panic. Best of all, she makes sure you get an Oreiad every single turn. So, I keep going on and on about the Oreiad, I guess it’s time for me to illustrate why she inspires me to poetry. She may be my favorite cap only mage. Why? Because she’s great at *everything*, an amazingly good thug with no equipment and a full fledged SC with equipment you can probably find wedged in the crease of your couch. She’s got awe, and a powerful one. Powerful enough that even high morale troops will shy off more often than not. She’s stoneskin, which with any armor you stick on her, anything which does hit her will bounce off more often than not. She’s got mistform so those few hits which do cause damage will only cause one point, and she’s got powerful nature magic so her regeneration is about half her hitpoints. Add this all up and it means she needs to get hit more than 5 times per round over many rounds to bring her down. Not many units can do that. Now, if you get rushed into very early fighting (that for some reason your Bull God can’t handle) you can use a priest to bless them to gain the regen and reinvig you need. In most circumstances though I’d suggest just forging her a shroud of the battlesaint, your protection is plenty enough with your buffs and you get the regen without casting the very fatigue expensive personal regeneration. You’ve got all those mystics arcane probing, you shouldn’t have any trouble at all popping out a sacred shroud every turn to match the one Oreiad you get. But I haven’t told you the best part yet – no need to forge a shield or weapon. Try this script on for size – mistform, stoneskin, resist lightning, cast spells. What spell is she going to cast? Shockwave of course. Now you’ll do plenty enough damage to blast PD around with just this, but with a little more reinvig you become truly unstoppable. Fortunately, 25% of your Orieads can cast summon earthpower, and the rest just need an earth gem, or for just 3 gems you can forge boots of the messenger with a hammer. Oh, also no worries if she runs into somebody lighting immune, the spellcasting AI will automatically switch to something like freezing touch or fists of iron. But wait, there’s more! Add “resist elements” there and it gives you 50% resistance to everything. This means 100% resistance is as easy as slapping on a dragon helm & frost brand (you’re already scripting resist lighting). You can toss in resist poison if it seems like it’ll help. So, once you’ve forged 4 hammers, every turn you’re using 3w 3f 3s 3n and have a chick who’s immune to everything, and blasts a huge chunk out of the enemy front lines every other turn while never running up fatigue. You know what’s even better than that? Using three of them together. Watching the enemy try to swarm around this one block of three invincible chicks to have 3 shockwaves blasting out is just an awesome site to behold. For not many more gems you can stick amulets of MR & luck on your lovely ladies so they’re good for all weather. If you’re facing tough astral spam, slap on rainbow armor and rotate in iron will to the buff mix (you’ll also need some extra reinvig and to cast person regen), you’ve no worries from that angle. They also get you into the water very early for the price of a ring of water breathing. That was just the opening act, my friend. All those Oreiads are stealthy and can cloud trapeze. That in and of itself is a strategy (check out my Eriu guide for details), but lets examine how this looks in light of the other things we’ve got set up and in light of another of the Oreiad’s abilities. Seduction. So, you’ve got forts packed shoulder to shoulder in most of your provinces. You’ve got dozens of cloud trapeze capable SCs. You can seduce from inside a sieged fort. Tell me again how you plan on ever losing a fort? Think about it, those Oreiads are army clearers, how many bodyguards does it take to stop them? They’re immune to everything, so how many mages survive the assassination? Then again there’s the successful seductions. It’s got a low success rate, but it’ll happen often enough to make you gleeful as you round our your national magic with death, blood, or whatever else seems tasty. Plus, you know, that near 100% success rate of killing the guys who don’t join you, that’s a plus to. Now, of course you’ll need to use your head and adjust the equipment/scripting you use based on what your opponent is using, but from spamming endless false horrors to orb lighting to frozen heart to swarm there’s not many opponents who don’t have something deadly to fear. It’s too bad there’s no way you can get Mage Engineers, they would fit fabulously with this strategy. Now, the obvious counter to this sort of thing is anti-SCs equipped with magic items to pop the mistform. So, why not have some of your lovely ladies equipped with a rune smasher and void eye spamming charm at the same time? Who wants to run their thugs into that? As you start getting into the part of the game where anti-thugs are likely to be used you’ll not want to use Oreiads unsupported except in hit and run operations using their stealth and mobility. Their hitpoints are low enough that there’s not really any way to reliably target them when they’ve got wyvern bodyguards - who make nice anti-anti-thugs with their paralyzing poison while ignoring the shockwaves. Not invincible, but darn hard to get to. These lovely ladies aren’t done yet by a long stretch. Whenever I see an A/E combo I immediately think stone rain. Every single one of your Oreiads can cast it - 1 gem for summon earthpower, two for casting it. Even better, stick earth boots on an earth random Oreiad and drop it first turn (give her plenty of protection). You also, of course, can drop all those big nature spells from mass regeneration to mass protection and relief. Those Myrmidons start looking pretty darn vicious, particularly when you stack on all those earth buffs as well. Crystal shields are your friend, with one wrathful skies opens up, and any of your water random ones can drop foul vapors. Too bad we don’t have any lighting and poison immune troops. Dragon master and you’re summoning wyverns for 1 gem apiece. Unlike other drakes, wyverns have a fairly decent MR (12). True, they’re not as physically tough as the better known drakes, but they’re decent enough meat shields for the price, they fly, oh, and they’re lighting and poison immune. They’ll provide some nice bulk to your sloth-stunted armies and compare very favorably to the vine ogres you might otherwise be inclined to build up (who have a MR of 5, don’t fly, and aren’t lighting immune). The wyverns also lay down a paralyzing poison which is very useful against super giants common in EA as it attacks their fatigue rather than their strongly regenerating hitpoints (make sure you drop strength of giants to help that stinger punch through giant strength armor). All in all, EA Arco should be a pretty significant flying nation. A couple other summons bear special consideration. Sleepers make decent thugs when kitted out. Gargoyles make a solid addition to your air force. Sirrush benefit from your nature blessing and can be pretty impressive when buffed similarly to what I suggested for your pretender. They’re also poison immune so work well with that angle. Kithaironic Lions are not only incredibly thematic, they’re also work very well with some buffing from your ubiquitous astral mages (sense a pattern here?). Remember, you’re going light on the troops so you’ll need to have some summons to make up the difference and buffing them is often a great job for those mystics who were unfortunate in the randoms they got. Now, you don’t have the same astral strength that the later Arcos do, but you’d be leaving money on the table to ignore what you do have. Part of your strong gem income should be put to forging a steady stream of starshine caps and crystal coins, along with rune smashers and void eyes. Over time you should be able to build up quite a stash of these items (all forgable with mystics) which you’ll stick on double astral mystics which you’ll collect in one big stack in one of your forts. You’ll also build up (over time) 20 or so priestesses in the same block. What’s magic about that? You can now mind hunt with no fear of going feebleminded, that stack of priestesses will heal the feeblemind the same turn it happens. Heck, feel free to shoot at armies with S1-2 mages – you’re only out a couple pearls for failed attempts. You’ll have plenty of seeking arrow casters to, which is a nasty one-two punch taking out the astral mage cover while laying down a devastating barrage. Finally, all those castles spitting out all those mystics leads to truly really the best communion potential in the game. Read my guide to communions for suggestions, it really is a whole discussion unto itself. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
nice guide. I love Oreiads ever since gettign a couple as heroes playing MA arcos.This left me tinkering with strats for EA so I can play with a bunch of them. My problem was sticking to a rainbow pretender. Hadn't really given a SC pretender much thought but that really helps the early game where I was having the issue.
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Good like all the others. I just discovered Oreiad thugs myself, but I was trying to take a rainbow mage with a bigger bless. I was noticing in SP tests how much it impacted my expansion in comparison to the S4 Wyrm I'm using in my MP game as Arco.
Edit: Actually, I was able to take off the death scale while still keeping everything else. Very cool, since Philosophers and Skeptics have disease issues. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
As a note, Philosophers get +4rp in ChrisCBM1.44 and following just to make this kind of strategy viable.
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Baalz. I can hardly keep pace with all your guides. Don't you ever sleep? :)
But you know what they say, you can't have too much of a good thing, and your guides (this one included) are top level material. Your guides have that magical effect on me that makes me want run and play with said nations. Thank you! |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
I think this is one of your better guides but why the Great White Bull? Everything else seemed to make sense but I can't wrap my head around why that pretender over many other (IMO) tastier choices.
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
What other choices are you talking about? AFAICT the bull is the cheapest way to get the bless you want and still be a capable expander from turn one w/out dom9. The green dragon is the only other possibility that I can see.
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
A few things:
I think having a *pile* of priestesses is a bit of a waste- 1-2 has always been sufficient for me. Additionally, under all flavors of CBM, seduction got a hefty boost; to the tune that it now *often* works. Under CBM cat charm is con-4; under vanilla and ChrisCBM its Con-2. Well worth the investment. Scout as fast as you can: Finding a blood druid site is gold for Arco - it comes with 5 fairly easily seducible blood druids. Don't neglect charm, as a weapon. Sooner or later one of your mystics will allow you to runesmash. Eye of aiming,shield of valor - minimal investment then considering storm/lightning spam. On the subject of the flying troops; flyers get fatigue from flying as well as combat. And their base encumbrance is like 10! So you will take appreciable fatigue just by flying up and whacking the opponents. So, while I like the units, you will have appreciable attrition, especially in the early game if you use them unbuffed. Strongly consider reinvigoration - just to cut down on the number of hits bypassing armor. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Pretender I'm doing this from memory, but I think you will find that Gaiea is available and makes a fine choice (thematic too). |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
dominion of 5 and In a solid dominon he’ll have over 300 hitpoints --> means probably not usuable for expansion against any opponent.
but to be honest even though you say he's still usable late in teh game you don't base your strat around him anymore so it's not really a problem.. he's just not THAT good as you make it sound there IMHO :D I don't know his slots but how would you kit him out? |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Yeah the White Bull is ok for expansion but later on his trample is fairly meaningless and worse he has no good slots!! Any proper SC would make mincemeat out of him.
One other thing I was going to ask: how are you coping with fatigue in your initial expansion? You've got all this trample fatigue, but then you've also got more from beserk. Not to mention from your buffs. Do your expansion tests presume a certain level of indy strength? Cause at like 8-9 for example I would get really concerned. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Well he's said before that all/most of his guides are presuming normal settings (indies 5).
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
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Vine shields is essentially a perfect defense against dragonflies but is too expensive to include in the Oreiads' kit. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Another interesting guide, Baalz.
In my experience playing with EA Arco, I've also become a big fan of the Oreiad and developed a strat quite similar to what you recommend. Hadn't thought of matching Wyverns with Oreiades though - thanks for the idea. I do wonder about your suggestion to use buffed Myrmidons though. Myrmidons are slooow, slower than other heavy infantry that I'm aware of. And, with a rcost of 28 (in vanilla) and Sloth 3 scales, its hard to get many of them. For the same rcost (in vanilla), you can get Chariots which are also prot 17, but are much quicker and can trample. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
I recently tried a similar starting strat with arco, but I had the bull with high dominion and no earth. I think Dom 9 and nature 5 from memory. For an awake pretender SC I think you really need to have the dominion push from high dominion, and the extra hit poitns stacked very well with the personal regen I went for first up. Protection is lower but you have awe, so need it less, and with regen and recuperation you can take a few hits.
It possibly has less utility later without the earth, but is dominant early, meaning you have strong dominion all game (promote your good scales and keep bad ones out) and if you happen to die you are only dropping 1 path rather than 2. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Hey there -- I did up the white bull. With those scales dom 5 and E4N4 you seem to have 65 points left over.
Am I missing something? If not, it seems you could either take dom 6 and N5 with 3 points left, or keep dom 5 and get rid of either the cold or death. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Tichy: Are you under CBM? I made Baalz's Bull, and had only 6 points left over. (I chose Heat over Death, though.)
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
I haven't played Arco to any reasonable extent, but I've played around with the bull a bit.I bought him some fire and some earth to make him a burning stone statue of death that plants itself in the middle of an enemy army and just sits there. It's not viable to use him on his own later on, sure, but he seemed like a solid chaos-causer to move along with one of your larger armies.
Since he goes for trample he rarely gets into scraps with enemy thugs or SCs. My equipment was usually a ring of regen and a resilience amulet. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
@Vedalken: I am -- but I think I know what happened. I'm running an older version of CBM (1.3). Gotta update that.
Thanks. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Yeah, I agree totally with DC. Much better to compile your own changes in a mod, name it something specific (not including the word CBM) and then state that is is meant to be used with CBM. From that point take part in the discussion in the CBM thread and argue for your changes.
Also stop flaunting it all over the place! I think you are trying to buy in on the solid reputation of CBM and the massive work behind it in a very bad way. Great guide BTW. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
DC, clearly you've never tried clevelandCBMver00000007revCy2008m02d13t1432GMT.dm, else you'd understand the true potential of moded mods, and how easy they are to keep track of. :D
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Cleve, what is your ETA on getting the Forging Reference updated for ChrisCBM? :)
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
I wish the discussion starting from this:
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Rather than continuee to hijaak the thread, I've moved my responses here:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=42435&page=2 |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
....and back onto EA Arco. I fully concede that the white bull is not as versatile late game as some other chasises, but for this build you want three things:
1) An awake expansion pretender 2) Very good scales 3) A minor E/N blessing Good luck affording all that with a pretender who is also top shelf for late game. If you've got a suggestion for one that would work better I'm listening. I also think you discount his combat utility a bit too much, having that invincible battering ram zooming about like superman set to attack rearmost not only makes me happy to think about, it certainly is the sort of thing that will wreck an opponents day in many situations. You won't be using him to singlehandedly take down armies, but used as part of your overall strategy you shouldn't have too hard a time putting him to good use. @Aezeal - he's got over 200 hitpoints with just one candle, so pushing a strong dominion is certainly not required. You don't want to send him into strong enemy dominion of course, but mildly friendly should be fine along with all those buffs. I didn't mention it, but you'll want to put up enough temples in those forts to make sure your nice dominion covers all your land. He's only got two misc slots, so I'd outfit him generally as I said with an amulet of MR and a ring of whatever resistance seemed best at the time (lighting by default as it's the biggest danger). @Redeyes - yeah, swarm will give all kinds of different SCs problems, Oreiads included. Haven't tested it, but size 4 wyvern bodyguards should be a fairly effective screen against swarm I'd think. @analytic_kernel - yeah, I agree. Maybe I didn't make it super clear, but I do mention chariots are your goto guys outside of your capital. There are lots of situations where chariots are next to useless though, anybody who sticks a couple crushers at the front of their army will pretty much ruin your day if all you've got is chariots. Myrmidons certainly have a niche in your army. @Dragar - The earth is an very important component of the blessing. It doubles the effective time your wind riders can fight which is important for units used in smaller numbers. It's also a non negligible benefit to your Oreiads, and as central as they are to your strategy it seems like a good idea to invest in them. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
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Totally agree with taking Dom6 + N5...Faery Trod + Army of Lead = Goodnight Irene. Put that in your lategame usefulness pipe and smoke it. Alternately, I recommend taking another point of Cold and investing in some Blood magic. Why? Because it's the funniest image in all of Dominions: Arcoscepalian Squire, nervously clutching Sanguine Dousing Rod: "Er, Highness? You want me to put it WHERE?" Great White Bull: "MOOOOOOO!" Horn of Valor is a close second. :D |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
I'm actually fond of the Green Dragon chassis in CBM for a bless. mostly because he flies as well!
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Also, the Blue Dragon makes Wind Riders very heavy-hitting while protecting Oreiaedes. Still, Earth bless is very good. And Bull is VERY thematic here. :)
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Carcator the Pocket Lich?
"Why is it so dark?" :angel Stop writing guides please Baalz, you keep making me want to play around with the nation. :p |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
What I've been wondering is if you could make good use of the sceptics.
You have a lot of castles, probably more then you can build a lab in, your dom isn't to strong and you don't need to much temples. So in theory you could take drain, get better scales otherwise, and put your research centers at the front, where your masses of bloodhunting sceptics are keeping both your and the enemies dominion out. And if you just see your enemies dom being vulnerable sneaking 20 sceptics into his lands is a nice surprise. The biggest problem is that once you have drain in a province, you can't do much about it, so you must conquer a good bunch of territory without your god. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
The swing from magic-1 to drain-2 does get you a significant stack of design points, I like your idea of using skeptics to create a magic scales neutral research center, and in the first year those philosophers are not hurt too badly by it at research 8-1=7.
So I have been wanting for months to try this using the Virtue. My question is, how important is the minor N bless? In my experience with Helheim's Vanjarls, the regen just does not kick in all that often - if you are taking damage, you take enough damage that fairly quickly the mistform gets popped and then a couple large hits and thats it. Whereas most of the time awe + defense + protection keeps the hits off entirely. The exception would be poison, where regen is a great way to be poison-immune, but we can get there by using nature magic instead. I want to skip the N bless because with the Virtue's new path cost of 70 or so, I can afford only one new path: E4, which also bumps up her naked protection into the range where stray hits that get through from typical indies are fairly minor. [edit: Im contemplating this under CBM, where the Virtue starts with A and S and is a bit cheaper] |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
The whole problem with skeptics is simple. Why the heck are you recruiting skeptics instead of mystics?
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
The whole problem with skeptics is simple. Why the heck are you recruiting skeptics instead of mystics?
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
If you're mad-castling, it's possible to run into the situation where you can't afford to recruit a mage in every castle. Or where recruiting only mages would be detrimental to your war effort because what you really need is more bodies to either speed sieges or protect those mages you already have out fighting.
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Fair enough Graeme. But he was talking about spamming 20 heretics. Better to save the money and buy 8 mystics in my opinion.
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
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Does anyone have any comments on the necessity of a minor N bless? |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Of course there are some variables. But when i've played arco I made stone idols instead of skeptics.
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Try stone idols + skeptics for extra lulz.
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
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Sceptic: "THERE ARE NO GODS!" Peasant: "No.. Gods?" Sceptic: " THAT'S RIGHT! NO GODS.. Other than this Stone Idol! Worship it!" |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
First off....Great guide Baalz it is really good. Ea Arco is a fun nation to play.
Having just come off my first dom3 win ever (nonforum game), as EA Arco, let me explain my build in case anyone wants to try out something a little different. I humbly submit this as my preferred Arco build: Awake Forgelord F2A3E4S3 Dom 10 O3S3M2D2 Awake, this pretender can expand as well as Baalz' bull but offers a lot for the mid-end game. With Dom 10 he has enough awe against line troops, Cast Air shield to protect from arrows. Forge yourself a midget masher on turn 1, start expanding from turn two. This guy can take on normal indy concentrations just fine. Your philosophers research alteration which give the FL the buffs he needs to take on tougher indies while you also expand with slingers/chariots. Once expansion is done the FL really shines. He can forge some really useful stuff for arco. Cheap rings and really cheap staffs of elemental mastery mean you can get oriads and mystics up to casting any elemental spell. I particularly liked mobile orieds with SoEM and RoW dropping first round Fog Warriors/Wrathful Skies/Rain of Stones/Army of Lead/Gold depending on what I was facing. Crystal Shields instead of SoEM if you want a staff of storms along. All this can be done really cheaply with the forgelord. If they bring lightning immunity it is not hard at all to reach firestorm, heat from hell, grip of winter, or other big elemental battlefield enchantments. Even with Drain you have great research, particularly if you use skeptics to create a neutral research province, so I think you have a good chance to get to artifacts first, and your forgelord can forge almost all of them dirt cheap (I did this in the game I won). I really like to build up icarids in my forts, they are weak, but can fly. Once you are dropping Fog Warriors and Army of Gold in every fight what really starts to matter is their mobility. Of course, a lot of this can be done with communions, but they are really unwieldy, so having cheap rings and staffs to boost levels makes you a lot more flexible. It is particularly handy to have an independent oriad along with the communion to first-round fog warriors or army of lead/gold incase they try to kill a big communion with rain of stones or firestorm. No death makes thugging hard. I took away a Necromancer site from an enemy in my game which made it not too hard to get into death with rings already forged, but before that I made do with sleepers, golems and oriads. In retrospect with all my savings from forging I probably could have gotten some of the elemental royalty but I always assume they are already gone..... With elemental boosters you are in reach to cast all of the big gem-gen globals. I found EBDW with my pretender particularly useful. Of course, this win was against some pretty noobish players, so probably doesn't mean much, but I think it is fun to at least think about a pretender who can both expand and be an awesome forging machine mid-game in contrast to Baalz' bull (which has its own advantages). |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Yeah, the forge lord is really my fav.
An interesting twist would be to take him with death 4. Does get you into death, and you're forging skull helmets for 6 gems. But I have no death mages for the boosters... Yeah, but you have recruit anywhere flying/stealth commanders which will only cast the item spell raise skeletons. You can easily get quickness which lets you cast the spell twice. One of these guys can take strong PD on his own, combine them for a massive army out of nowhere. Oh, and when you exchange the skull helmets for life drain standards on some of them good riddance enemy sc. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Oh yeah, I love me some forge lord. I find when I play one though at a certain point its hard to justify using him for anything other than forging rings of wizardry (for 17S I think?) and crystal shields, which makes the opportunity cost of sticking other paths on him high. For dropping big combat spells crystal shields are often better than elemental staffs for you (cheaper, leaves a hand free). Even once you've got a good stock of RoW yourself you can usually trade them for a massive profit - even alchemizing. Just my experience using the forge lord...I have a hard time really leveraging extra paths.
Oooh, I've also been burned too often to take strong death + strong misfortune. Completely unscientific and antectdotal, but it seems like in my testing d3/m3 cripples you in year one around 25% of the time. D2/M2 is probably not that far off. |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
Yay another Baalz guide. The one you wrote recently on MA Oceania inspired me to pick the game up once again after months of playing other stuff. I am about to wrap that game up, so I will definitely try this one next. Thanks for your efforts!
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Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
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I should clarify that the D in this case represents Drain. I have also had tragic experiences with death (3 half-pop plague events on turns 2,3, and 5 in my cap, with luck 3! in mists of time) and pretty much never take it anymore, especially not with misfortune. Also with mystics being such a good recruit-anywhere, I wouldn't want to tank the income hit from death. Drain is okay with arco as you still have good research and can set up a neutral research province. Air on the FL is optional of course, but lets him cast air shield early (vital for soloing early indies), and is also really useful for affording the multiple staves of storms I find i need all over the place in the endgame. SoEM also let you get access to any elemental ritual. Even with RoW and earth boots, you still need SoEM to cast earth attack, for example, a ritual I am probably too addicted too. Also the gem gen globals which you can opportunistically grab. Lastly, A/F combo lets you forge the magic lamp, and the Djinn is great to have access to as Arco (this is just personal preference, I love the Djinn!) |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
I suppose I should post this in a general dominion-push thread, oh well.
For purposes of pushing dominion, is Dom9 + 5 temples the same as Dom10? If you have Dom10, do additional temples not help you at all? (I mean other than generating the temple checks). - Alex |
Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
its almost the same 90% vs 100%. But the reason behind 10 is better awe to your awake expander.
To the purpose of dominion expand 10 is too much. Forge lord is too good in CBM i guess. I didnt take it for my current EA Acro game however. With a polarized nature this nation has poor troop choice and very nice commanders. If it had spies and powerful priests then it would be close to 100% in terms of commander usefulness. sceptics are cheap in cbm but will ignite your neighbours when found. Better use on the side your enemies are. |
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