Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

This may not be a bug if there is a work around.

First I would like to thank Don and Andy for adding the forced ability to use High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds against non armored targets. This is both realistic in an emergency situation and unrealistic in a non-emergency situation (85% of the time against AI).

In real life a unit commander can and does choose to use the wrong ammo because his balls are on the line, so this change was necessary from that standpoint. Unfortunately I am now forced to do this as well in some situations where it would not be called for.

I could be totally wrong in saying this is a bug, and if I am I would like to humbly apologize for wasting your time:doh:

My problem that I need help with is this: I want the ability to use HEAT only against hard targets and still retain the ability to op-fire against both soft and hard targets at all ranges.

I could do this before the forced ability and I wish to do so now. Wasting precious HEAT rounds is not my cup of tea, and I would very much like to learn how to save the ammo for the things it was meant against whilst not degrading op-fire response. I want the option to use it or not use it.

The way my luck is I'm probably the only person who wants my units to use HEAT sensibly.

If someone doesn't want to use HEAT as if it were HE then that person shouldn't have to. And they should be able to not use it without disabling weapons.

Please correct me if I'm wrong at any point and congrats to both Andy and Don for putting so much sweat into a game that I really enjoy! :up::up:

Sincerely,
Andrew Nault

P.S. I paid my 70 bucks (or however much it was) for both games. And I would like to say: that would not even pay the electric bills to make this small ajustment to the game, let alone the salary you two would deserve from making this small change or any of the multitude of patches and mods! Therefore I would like to give you a hearfelt thanks for sacrificing your time.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

OK

How about DETAILS ??? It's so nice to actually get them when people complain.

What unit?

What nation?

What year ?

Were there HE rounds available when the HEAT was selected to fire at soft targets ??

The ONLY chance this could actually be called a "bug" is if HEAT was being fired at soft targets when HE was available.

Don

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

All units

All nations

All years

No

From your perspective its apparently not a bug. From mine it is, can you tell me how not to waste heat on soft targets (without disabling weapons or any other such nonsense)? If you can there isn't any bug from anyone's perspective.

Do real life units use HEAT because thats all they have, yes!

Is it appropriate or realistic to ALWAYS use all but the last four HEAT? Heck no:mad:

First, it was not being able to use HEAT at all. This was a ridiculous error. You fixed it. :D

Now, we are FORCED to use all but the last four shots. Perhaps you can fix it again. And allow use to use HEAT in a sensible manor:(

Thank-you

Andrew Nault

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

All units? Well for MBT's that lack HE rounds HEAT rounds were supposed to fill the double role against both soft and hard targets. So I don't see a problem there.

Specialist ATGM units either have low ammo (like ATGM teams) that will make it unlikely they'll waste many rounds if any against soft targets. And you have the filter option to let these fire at hard targets which is their job. As these usually do very badly against soft targets there's little reason to want these to shot at soft targets so there doesn't seem to be a big problem there either.

That leaves multipurpose units like squads who can expect to fight both armor and soft targets. They will fire what they have and keep the last four HEAT rounds for use against armor. Seems very sensible to me. The AT weapons they have like LAW's, RPG's etc are not just antiarmor weapons. They are a squads ability to project some heavy blasting firepower against any target that needs it. That could be the wall the enemy squad 100m away is hiding behind (which in game terms means simply you'll fire a HEAT round at the target). It could be the MG position on the upper floor of a building where you can't get a riflegrenade or handgrenade in. There are countless examples you can come up with where a squad would use a HEAT weapon against another soft unit BECAUSE it is the right weapon to use.
Then there's off course the fact that commanders tend to use all means available to take out the enemy (think using hellfire's to hunt for snipers as we saw in recent conflicts). I'm not sure not all commanders would in reality reserve the last 4 rounds fro anti-armor use that may never occur.

The game mimics all that by firing HEAT against soft targets. You may not get a message that the enemy is hiding behind a wall a needs to be blasted but that's what's happening.

This is only an issue btw in the AI's turn as in your own you can simply turn the weapon off before firing.
But I don't think it's unrealistic, on the contrary.

Narwan

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

You are confusing a feature with a bug.HEAT rounds are used against soft targets ALL the time in real life.

HEAT RPG-7s rounds have been and are being fired against personnel in every situation imaginable.

Most current western MBTs have only APFSDS and HEAT commonly available. Do you think that Abrams in Iraq have never used their main guns except in an emergency? Think again.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Re. RPG, not only against soft targets but against helos as well - the Afghanis utilised the self-destruct feature of the PG-7 round(at about 900 meters from launch) to ambush Soviet choppers. Obviously, this required careful timing.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Well I think we do. You just disagree.

As you already noted from my perspective its not a bug and that "perspective" has not changed in any way but I'll give you the opportunity to explain how you think it should be re-programmed to behave in a "sensible manner"

Start by fully describing your idea of what a "sensible manner" would be when the AI is confronted by a threat and it has the tools to deal with that threat in the form of HEAT rounds. From your perspective it would appear NO heat rounds should be expended on soft targets you deem are not worthy of that round under certain circumstances . You have already said it was wrong in the past to not allow HEAT to be fired at soft targets so there must be cases where is "OK" to do so. Please explain how we are to filter "worthiness" to satisfy the criteria of "sensible manner" as defined by you. Perhaps we should reserve 6 rounds for AT work or maybe 8 or 10 or only fire HEAT after something that can kill you has been fired in your direction ?

I'm very interested in how you think this "sensible manner" should be implemented.



Don

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but doesn't the filter allow you to handle most of this? I know it doesn't allow you to choose whether to use HE or HEAT rounds, but it's already been said that the HE is gone in this scenario. If something is defined as a threat, you engage it knowing you will be firing HEAT rounds.

With the filter, you can define when a soft target becomes a threat. During the player turn, it's completely up to the player when they fire. And yes, you disable the main gun if you want to preserve you HEAT ammo. If you do so, the "threat" isn't really that big or you would touch if off with HEAT. Turning of the main gun is the game equivalent of issuing the order, GUNNER, COAX, TRUCK.

That's my 2 cents.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

A Modest Proposal For The Expenditure of HEAT Ammunition

I want the ability to disable HEAT ammunition expenditure during the computers turn except against hard targets whilst still maintaining the ability to engage both hard and soft targets.

You are asking when the situation arises where I feel the need to limit my rampant HEAT hemorrhaging, correct? For me it happens every game. Some suggest disabling weapons, BUT this would truly be hard to do during the computers turn! Some suggest filtering my unit via the most arcane method of unit fire filtering, but neither is this a equitable solution.

I could filter my unit but that would not solve my problem. If for example I told my unit not to engage soft targets to prevent HEAT wastage my unit wouldn't be able met threats from a soft target! In this instance my unit would only use up HEAT against hard targets, however it would not be able to engage a soft target at all.

I propose that the player be given the option via the preference menu to withhold permission to expend HEAT ammunition except against hard targets. This would satisfy me. :)

You can either say yes or no to this, nothing is lost by my for asking:p Give me the option to use or not to use and let me decide the worthiness.

GOOD DAY SIR

Andrew Nault

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

A Modest Proposal For The Expenditure of HEAT Ammunition

I want the ability to disable HEAT ammunition expenditure during the computers turn except against hard targets whilst still maintaining the ability to engage both hard and soft targets.

You are asking when the situation arises where I feel the need to limit my rampant HEAT hemorrhaging, correct? For me it happens every game. Some suggest disabling weapons, BUT this would truly be hard to do during the computers turn! Some suggest filtering my unit via the most arcane method of unit fire filtering, but neither is this a equitable solution.

I could filter my unit but that would not solve my problem. If for example I told my unit not to engage soft targets to prevent HEAT wastage my unit wouldn't be able met threats from a soft target! In this instance my unit would only use up HEAT against hard targets as per the authors request, however it would not be able to engage a soft target at all.

I propose that the player be given the option via the preference menu to withhold permission to expend HEAT ammunition except against hard targets. This would satisfy me. :)

You can either say yes or no to this, nothing is lost by my for asking:p Give me the option to use it or not, let me decide whether the moment is right.

GOOD DAY SIR

Andrew Nault

Please delete my last message, it was a mistake and this copy includes several changes!

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

It sounds like you are saying you want to be able to filter weapons independently, say to engage soft targets with a machine gun, but nothing more than that, correct? Something along the lines of hard targets, main gun engages. Soft targets, MGs engage if in range.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

You my friend are a Seer! :D:D:D Thank God someone understands.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

What I want is actually much less, I just want the ability to not use up HEAT when firing against soft targets when I deam that the HEAT ammo is too low to waste.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

So when you deem you want to save it set the filter, to save it before that set the range to engage soft to 12 or lower that way other units like your MMGs APCs will deal with them leaving your tank undistracted by a none threat. At 12 hexes when it opens up if the heat does not get it the mgs probably will.
Or if you just want to engage soft vehicles in a certain area set your overwatch hex this is when its usefull.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

You would have to clearly define what those conditions would be in such a way that would be programmable, applicable to all time periods covered by MBT, acceptable to others impacted by the change, realistic to code and fits within priorities Andy and Don have set.

You have to decide when does a soft target warrant just bullets and when do you throw everything you have at it? Consider jeep with a recoilless rifle for instance. This is a soft target, not an ATGM weapon (where another filter could be activated) and is capable of killing some tanks. Would you want to throw less than the maximum at this, considering it could kill your tank, just to preserve the last few HEAT rounds you have, in case a tank shows up? If you lose that exchange, it won't matter how many rounds you die with. The bigger question is, would other people agree with your assessment? They would be impacted also.

This all gets into a very subjective area. Personally, I believe if it can kill my tank, I need to kill it first. It doesn't matter if I use my last HEAT round to do it. I would probably be inclined to exercise other options first (small arms, MGs, tanks with more ammo, etc.) from other units before going down that road, but if it's my only option I'll take it.

Can that be coded? Yes, there isn't anything that can't be programmed. I don't believe I've ever seen Don or Andy say it can't be done. Typically, it's too difficult dealing with legacy code and in then end changes little or it falls too much into personal taste and isn't globally excepted. This is their code and they would know best.

That's my 2 cents, again. I think that puts me up to 4 cents :D

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

The only thing that I'm asking for is weapons release authority for soft target engagement on all >4 HEAT stocks. The option
to say "no, don't do that". Or, to say "yes, please use the HEAT on that pesky inf squad":sick:

Sincerely,
Andrew Nault

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

I understand what yo are saying but feel you can pretty much work round it with the filter & it would not impact my play style much.
Hardly use the filters but it is handy more so in MBT.
If tank is near to infantry reduce his range to engage them based on when RPGs are dangerous. Now they are close & becoming a threat so use everything you have with a high hit chance & not getting distracted firing at distant infantry. Yes I have not used my MGs but thats a good thing because I have saved shots incase vehicles & air turn up. This means I can protect my troops & APCs if something dangerous turns up & hes free to pinn everyone in my turn. If there are no major threats left out there meaning I don't need him to save his shoots then I have no need to save HEAT either.
Infantry are the same if you have a long range RPG like the 7 consider turning down vehicle engage range to 5 or 6 for better accuracy, less if ambushing. In my experience RPGs are rarely wasted firing at trucks as normaly other weapons have caused a bail out.
As a thought & no idea here but if I was in a tank tasked with giving infantry support & did not use everything at my disposale to do it the infantry would have every right to be pissed.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Here's the short answer.

NO

Here's the moderately long answer

Adding a "preference" to the game is NOT a simple matter ( this assumes you think it is ) and virtually everything you want to do can be done with the existing filter as others have already pointed out.

End of discussion.

Don

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

If I understand what you are telling me correctly, then I can control how much HEAT an AFV is using agaisnt infantry by telling him not to attack outside a certain radius.

But what about if I have an infatry squad and I don't want them wasting their RPG or bazoola rounds on other infantry? And I still want to be able to blast a tank when it comes close.

Sincerly,
Andrew Nault

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Plus in real combat you'd be hard pressed to see at a distance whether that thing on the back of a jeep is a light RR, ATGM, .50 MG or just some cargo.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Dont know never realy crops up as they tend to save last few shots, if the squads still active when they use it in 3rd or 4th slot then I am happy for them to. In rare instances I may switch it off especially if my armour is out gunned. Same goes with engineers sometimes but this is more because I have had some big disasters with splash causing friendly fire so if he has several freindly adjacent units I might warrant the situation does not need it. The one weapon I switch off regulary are long range flame units as limited shots & pretty devastaing so only let them defend with what they need & then switch on to route vissible enemy including tanks. Seriously nasty weapon.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Please correct me if I'm wrong. These are your two suggestions to allow me to save HEAT.

FOR my VEHICLES

The equitable option for HEAT ammunition expenditure reduction on AFV weapon systems is to limit AFV soft target response range to a low setting. An exact hexagon limit of the response radius to the maximum range of enemy anti-armor weapons systems.

FOR my 'Crunchies'

The equitable option for HEAT ammunition expenditure reduction on crunchie weapon systems is to disable powerful weapons until they are needed.

I'm not really sure how to use the the fire filtering feature as my game manuel that shipped with my CD does not mention it.

Thank-you Imp for replying so promptly.

Sincerely,
Andrew Nault

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

The details of using the op filter are in the online manual but yes generaly if I set it for armour & no RCL ATGM jeeps around I either limit range to close or set to ignore.
A platoon of 3 or 4 tanks if you really wanted to
Set 1 to engage Heavy armour only
1 or 2 to engage heavy armour & APCs
1 to engage everything
The choice is yours.

As I said apart from flame weapons rarely switch weapons off filter applies equally to troops.
But if you want to fire at soft targets with squads without using the RPG then switch it off.
Vs any armoured target just set the range if you want.
To be honest though most of the time I find routines work well enough but do set for certain situations.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Also the "Overwatch hex" feature may be useful, if you wish to assign fire sectors for your unit in order not to have say 3 tanks firing at enemies in one spot and then being overran by enemies coming in via a different route.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Having an online manual is really nifty. What is its URL?

Andrew

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Simply enter $GAME_INSTALLATION_PATH\Game Notes\SPMBTGuide.htm in your browser, and you could always make a link in your browser's favourites when it was opened.

Or just open the GG with the Game Options -> Help Tab-> Game Manual route, and then save that as a favoutite for future reference.

It is not "on line" but it is HTML. You can easily read it side by side when playing if you play the game in Windowed mode.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Thanks Andy, the first method did not work for me (perhaps a problem on my end) but the second one did. :)

Sincerely,
Andrew

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

I may be talking out of my rear here but will put this forward as anything that reduces the number of questions can only be a good thing.

If most people are the same as me I have much better search capabilities in plain text or PDF format than HTML. If this is the general case providing a copy in one or the other (no need for the pictures) might cut down the number of questions as I have asked a few as did not find the answer on a quick browse. Mind you this assumes people actually bother to look first I have a feeling a lot don't:D

Actually probably the easiest option if anyone knows a good HTML free search engine please post a link & it can be included in the Guide or as a sticky

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Hey, nothing beats the method of trial and error ;)

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

You do realise that HEAT is used against soft targets alot in real life, non emergency situations? Lets take Israeli tanks, as its my only area of real first hand knowledge:
There is no such thing as a HE 105mm in israeli tanks. There is HEAT, HEP/HESH, Flachette, and APAM. Same for 120mm. HESH is an ancient ammo now almost never used. An IDF tank usually has a HEAT in the chamber, to fire at any immidiate threat. This is because heat has an AT and anti-perssonel abiliety. So you end up shooting alot of HEAT at inf, soft vehicles and what not.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

It will if you put in the correct game installation path ! The default path the game and patches use is .

C:\Program Files\Shrapnel Games\The Camo Workshop\WinSPMBT\Game Notes\spmbtguide.htm

However, if you installed it someplace else you'll have to figure that out for yourself

OR you could simply click on the HELP tab of Game Options screen that appears when you load the game then click on "Game Manual". It's not hidden

If you hadn't found that by now I'm guessing there is a lot there you haven't seen

Don

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

I entered C:\Program Files\Shrapnel Games\The Camo Workshop\WinSPMBT\Game Notes\spmbtguide.htm in my browser instead and it worked fine.

Thanks for making sure I can get to the manual:up:

Sincerely,
Andrew

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

That's why the HELP tab is on the GameOptions screen.

Don

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Way back, the help file was one solid lump of HTML. That made searching it a breeze.

But after a while Dreamweaver started to choke as it got bigger and bigger, necessitating a split into several pages, so the ability to search the entire manual was lost.

There will be no PDF format, it is the most $DIETY-awful format/interface ever invented.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

No probs only suggested if it was a 10min conversion job.

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Don, would it be possible to delete the duplicate message that I posted much earlier in the thread? (The second one keep, it has the changes) I would also like you to delete this message after you read it.

Sincerely,

Andrew Nault

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

I've heard some great suggestions from the community.

And so;

I have a hypothetical question for anyone who wants to answer:

What would you do If you had a infantry company laden with heat.

The infantry company is currently fighting some foot crunchies in a fairly dense wooded lot but you know from recce elements (now killed) that your opponent is about to offer you a ride of the pain train in the form of a panzer company:p

Your infantry company really could use that heat against the enemy crunchiness, but bullets work against them:smirk:

You know that you must have some way to kill the panzers when they arrive and bullets DON'T work against them :eek:, you also DON'T know when the panzer will come smashing through the moderately dense second growth forest:hurt:

The basic situation is any moment during this turn or the next couple of turns you will actually need your RPG (assume each infantry squad carries 8-3) so disabling it isn't an option.

Assuming that you choose not use the HEAT against the infantry how would you go about doing it?

Any response is greatly appreciated even if you just want to yell at me for being ridiculous:angel

Sincerely,

Andrew Nault

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

Simple answer I would not bother doing a thing just let them do exactly what they want. When the tanks turn up they will have saved shots & be in better health because they used the heat rounds when they had to. More men means more chance of an effective assault so letting them use it in the 3rd or 4th slot makes loads of sense as it will not be wasted. Lose enough men you lose your RPG shots then you really wasted them

Re: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds
 

The topic is really getting old Andrew. We have no problem with the way heat is used and no interest in changing what we have now no matter how many hypotheticals you can think up and we have NO intention of allowing micromanagement of the ammo supply

End of discussion

Don