Communions
 

I have just read Baalz's 'Guide to Communions' for the first time as I was terrified to try and understand them.

I have read it 3 times (and am still terrified but now just seem to not understand it)and have a couple of simple questions.

IF I am right about these things (or get a correct answer) then I can go on to a little more...

Lets say I am Arco (as I am familiar with thier mages).

I have 20 Mystics in my Capitol, not all have the exact same paths and strength of paths they have.

(I may say this somewhat wrong but I am just trying to see IF the example I use would be correct, even if its not smart to do)

I can cast Slave Master on 1 Mystic (19 left) and since its 1 to the power of 2 I can cast slave and have 16 slaves (leaving 3 left over for research or whatever).

So, I have a master and 16 slaves....they all NOW have the same paths and path strength as the master.

Now say I want to cast a spell that does 25 damage normally....since I have the power of 4 it will now hit with 100 damage.

Lets say the Fatigue is 40 (heres where it starts getting difficult for me). Does that mean 40 x 4 = 160 because its the power of 4 OR does it stay at 40?

Now that THAT question is out let me pose one more.

IF it stays at 40..does that divide the fatigue among all 17 (1 Master and 16 slaves) for approx 2.35 Fatigue per Mystic.

Just for the slaves which would make it just slightly higher.

OR is it based on 160 divided bt 17 (1 master and 16 alaves) for 9.41 fatique per mystic and agian slightly higher if just the slaves are used.

I am not concerned if 1 master and 16 slaves is good or not at this point...I am just rtying to understand the math on casting the spell.

Thanks and anything else related to that matter you think I should know please chime in!!!!

Re: Communions
 

I think you've got a little confused in there.

16 slaves will let the master cast as if he has 4 more levels in each path he has access to. It does not multiply the power of the spell by 4, or the fatigue. Orb Lightning would produce 4 more bolts than previously, and an S4 caster would become able to cast Master Enslave.

The slaves will not suddenly have the same paths as the master. They retain their own paths and levels. BUT - for the purposes of reducing fatigue from spells the master casts, and only for that purpose, they are IIRC treated as if their paths are 4 higher.

When the master casts a spell, he receives no fatigue. Fatigue from the spell is divided equally between the slaves. Each slave then treats the fatigue assigned to them as if they had cast the spell themselves. Example: Master casts an S1 spell with 20 fatigue, and has 2 slaves. Each slave has 10 fatigue assigned to them. A slave with S2 *afrer the communion boost* would net 5 fatigue.

Re: Communions
 

Communion has exactly four effects:
1) All path levels of all participants are increased based on the number of slaves using the power of two rule.
2) The base fatigue from spells cast by masters is distributed evenly among that master and all slaves. It is modified by individual path levels (Pythium's Communicants are special) and Enc only after being distributed.
3) All self-buff spells cast by a master are also cast on all slaves.
4) The slaves cannot act normally except as described in the guide.

Re: Communions
 

To correct one point you make, Wick: Base fatigue from the spell is divided equally between the slaves only. The master receives fatigue only from his spellcasting encumbrance.

Re: Communions
 

And slaves cannot act ONLY if master already cast this turn. If he hadn't, they are able to act normally - which allows for things like "reverse" and "linebreaker" communions mentioned in the guide.

Re: Communions
 

Only Masters gain increased path levels - else Reverse Communions would be the order of the day, in nearly all cases.

You can increase slave path levels with the appropriate spells (Summon Earthpower, Power of the Spheres, etc), but the communion itself only increases the path level of Masters, for practical purposes.

Re: Communions
 

Except, as stated by Gregstrom above, for the purpose of calculating fatigue from spells cast by the Master. For that purpose they are treated as if they had received the same communion boost as the Masters. I am uncertain, but I think this even applies to paths they do not actually possess.

Re: Communions
 

Right, but it's not fair to say that it just outright boosts their paths, the OP was already struggling with this. ;) And I'm quite sure it doesn't apply to paths that they lack - I've had too many S1 Slaves fried to death by overzealous Masters topping off their script with Blade Wind or Gifts from Heaven spam (when the Masters' level is high enough, the Fatigue should be negligible, unless the slaves were not getting the same reduction).

Re: Communions
 

Actually I'm pretty sure the slaves do get boosted for paths they don't have, and in fact can be buffed by ie. phoenix power even if they're just S1 slaves. Just for the purposes of soaking up communion fatigue of course. Now, you're still going to have trouble using smaller numbers of them to cast spells which require a level 3 mage (like blade wind), even if they're boosted up to 2E they're still taking double fatigue from it and it's an 80 fatigue spell. That adds up fast if you're splitting it between say 4 slaves...

Re: Communions
 

I've even rapidly popped Slaves when in a huge communion with 16+ Slaves, and only 4-5 of the Masters use the inappropriate spells. And certainly, I had one of the Masters cast Summon Earthpower, as I always script it if I can. If they were all boosted to 5E in this way, they should be able to soak up a whole lot of Blade Winds.....

Re: Communions
 

Do ALL mages have to be the same?

Can I have say...7 mystics, 3 indie mages, and the rest assorted shamans, mages ect?

I know the mystics can CAST Slave Master and Slave but i have also seen that I can forge Slave collars whic I suppose works in the same way.

I thought that all slaves split the Fatigue evenly when a spell is cast and it has a set amount based on the spell.

I am seeing in the posts on here how fatigue is amplified somehow...

Am I just that dense or is this very confusing?

I reread the guide agian and some stuff is clearer, but it seems like everytime I think I have it understood there is an exception.

Is Fatigue pre determined by the game (say Blade wind is 20 fatigue..will it ALWAYS be 20 fatigue split between the slaves or does it amplify in some way)OR does it go by the Castor and how many levels it has in its path?

(say the master has a lvl 6 so a spell fatigue is magnified to match his raised status?

sigh.....:doh:

Re: Communions
 

Here's your formula:

Take the fatigue that's listed for a spell in the manual. For blade wind this would be 80.

Divide by the number of slaves. If you have 4 slaves, this would be 80/4 = 20 "base fatigue" going to each.

Then for each slave adjust the base fatigue by their relative path level to get the fatigue they actually receive.

If they are lower than spell level, fatigue received = base*(1+levels below)

If they are higher than spell level, fatigue received = base/(1+levels above)

They also of course (well, nearly positive) get their spell casting encumbrance as well.

Blade wind is level 3, and 4 slaves that have no earth magic have relative earth path level 2 (0+log base2 of 4, as there are 4 slaves). That means they are 1 level low, so double the base of 20 and give each 40 + encumbrance.

Hope that helps.

And by the way, I couldn't help but laugh when you suggested equipping slave collars. I'd reread the description before you try that :D.

(you're looking for a slave matrix which is S1E1 and a greater magic item I think).

Re: Communions
 

No. As long as they are able to cast Communion Slave (or Sabbath Slave) *or* carry the item Slave Matrix (which is a Construction 4 item that requires E1S1). Notice that no slaves will be boosted unless you have at least one Communion Master (or Sabbath Master) alive (either from the spell Communion Master (or Sabbath Master) or from the item Master Matrix (which is also a Construction 4 item that require E1S1) :)

As long as the above is true, yes you can.

Slave Collar is not the item you think of. Slave Collar would be quite bad for your mages :)

As has been pointed out, the fatigue is not split evenly, as such. Let me try to give an example (and others may comment if I have understood this thing right over the past years :) ).

EXAMPLE: You have Communion Master and 16 slaves. The master has with items S8, thus he is boosted to S12 from the communion. The slaves are S2 mages, thus boosted to S6 from communion (notice that this boost is *only* for fatigue, they can't go around casting S6 spells themselves).

On first round each of your mages cast the You decide to cast Communion Slave (except the master casts Communion Master of course). On second round your master casts Master Enslave (lets say he does it with 13 astral pearls). How does the fatigue split?

The Master gets 800/9 (as he has 4 extra levels in S above the required S8 *and* he uses those five extra Astral Pearls to further boost the effective level to 16 for this casting) which is 89 (notice that the AI does not willingly cast spells that kill them, and sometimes are reluctant with spells that would make them unconcious too; for the important killer spells make sure you have enough extra gems along ;) ).

The slaves get first 800/16=50 fatigue each (as there are 16, and the 800 is split evenly). However, as they are effectively 3 levels short from the required S8 the fatigue is multiplied by 3, thus each slave gets 150 fatigue and they fall unconcious.


About the reverse communion. Lets say 18 mages with S2 do a reverse communion. If you do this, be sure that the masters are the last to cast the spells, because any slave casting after either master do nothing. Lets assume you are smart and give the two masters the Master Matrix, so they are automagically the masters.

On 1st round each slave casts Communion Slave. The first master (remember that the Master Matrix makes him autmagically the master!) casts Power of Spheres, which then boosts *all* the masters and slaves (so they all have now S3). The second master casts Personal Luck (for example), and all your slaves and masters now have Luck.

On second round you can then go all bananas with S3 spells, lets say you are facing a SC, so all your slaves cast Soul Slay. That is 16 times Soul Slay, and hopefully at least one will not be resisted :p What is more important, the slave casting the Soul Slay will for fatigue (only) be considered as a S3+4 = S7 mage, so each Soul Slay provides only 20/4 = 5 fatigue. Or to take out a mage heavy opposition, why not cast Magic Duel; each slave will take 100/6 = 18 fatigue (so they could be scripted Communion Slave, Mind Duel x4 and not go unconcious (as long as they remember to bring along 4 pearls, of course) and simply rip apart the opposing mages).



Lets say you have different types of mages as Communion Slaves. Lets say the master casts a spell that requires E5 (lets say it is Army of Lead, 300 fatigue), and you have 8 slaves (effectively boosting levels by 3 for fatigue for the slaves). 1 of the slaves has no paths in Eearth, five have E1, and two have E2. The master casts the spell, and thus each slave recieves a "basic" 300/8=38 fatigue, but how do each of them different level mages recieve fatigue regarding their level in Earth?
E0 becomes E3 for fatigues, so he recieves the 38x3=114 fatigue
E1 becomes E4 for fatigue, so he recieves 38x22=76 fatigue
E2 becoms E5 for fatigue, so he recieves the 38 fatigue



Hopefully I did get it all right, and hopefully this is of some use for easier understanding :)

Re: Communions
 

On second round you can then go all bananas with S3 spells, lets say you are facing a SC, so all your slaves cast Soul Slay. That is 16 times Soul Slay, and hopefully at least one will not be resisted What is more important, the slave casting the Soul Slay will for fatigue (only) be considered as a S3+4 = S7 mage, so each Soul Slay provides only 20/4 = 5 fatigue.

This is wrong. Slaves do not get bonus communion levels for spells they themselves cast, not even for fatigue. Only when the masters cast.

Re: Communions
 

wow....

THANKS EVERYONE, I may have to read ir 2 or 3 times but I think I am getting the gist of what is being said.

One question, when you talk about bringing along gems (I would suppose you mean Astral Pearls) how much does each gem reduce the fatigue?

So , if I have 2 slaves that are boosted 2 levels more than 2 others then the way I understand itis...if I use peaarls then they will ( for all intent and puposes) absorb some of the fatigue...

IF this si correct then I am on the right road.

I just need to know how MUCH they absorb and is it standard no matter what type of mage and what level.:up:

Re: Communions
 

Slaves can't use gems to reduce fatigue recieved from the masters spells.

Gems are used to increase the level in the path. So if a spell requires 3 gems to cast, each gem used above that increases the level in that path by one (which reduce the fatigue, and can even be used to cast spells that have too high requirement otherwise). The mage can use at most as many gems as he has levels in that magic; for example a mage with E2 could at most use 2 earth gems, while a mage with E10 could use 10 gems.


@Benjamin: Are you positive that the paths are not increased for fatigue? I admit it has been a while since I last toyed around with communions, but I remember clearly being able to cast Communion Slave, Mind Duelx4 with 16 slaves without any of them falling unconcious. That was in a SP where I tested communions jsut to get a feeling at how to use them, and the opposing AI side had no astral mages so the result was absolute carnage... OTOH, I might have had Light of the Northern Star going on too, can't really remember :( .

Re: Communions
 

As far as I know, the bug still exists whereby the AI will eat as many gems as it can for high Fatigue spells, but it can only actually gain the benefit of -1- gem for purposes of reducing the actual Fatigue incurred.

Re: Communions
 

The first extra gem does more than just lower fatigue. Gems after the first only lower fatigue. Manual p- 89, "Using magic gems in combat".
Are you saying that this mechanic does not work as written in the manual? Just checking, since this thread is VERY confusing.


Jarkko, are you sure you used Magic Duel in your test?
It can only target enemy Astral mages, the casting mage has a good chance of dying himself, and it's fatiguecost of 100 means that one pearl is required to cast it in all cases. Even if all of your 16 slaves had 4 astral pearls and didn't use all for the first casting, I doubt the enemy army had 16*4 = 64 astral mages.

Re: Communions
 

Weeelll... now that you ask, I have to answer it most likely wasn't :p Prolly was Soul Slay then :doh:


I really need to start playing something else instead of always picking Pangaea... It's just that the hordes of naked women that somehow tend to catch my attention... :re:

Re: Communions
 

A couple of points.

1. According to the research in Baalz' thread about communions, the Master ONLY gets fatigue equal to his spellcasting encumbrance - normally under 10 points, and certainly not 89. Spell fatigue As an addendum: AFAIK, spell fatigue caps out at 200 outside communions. Cast a spell worth 300 fatigue, and your mage will fall unconscious with 200.

2. If your slaves are 3 levels short of S8, I think they'd get 4 times the fatigue.

So, you'd actually get a master with <10 fatigue and a bunch of slaves with probably 200. This would be a good time to cast Vortex of Returning.

Re: Communions
 

True Gregstorm :) Too bad I can't edit the post anymore though, so my astonishing math skills will be visible for all the future generations too :hurt:

Re: Communions
 

Keep in Mind, you can only use one additional Gem beyond the casting cost. This raises the mage's path level by one for that particular spell (which as a side effect can reduce fatigue). I could not tell you the relationship with communions.

Re: Communions
 

I often feel that the edit limit is a complete pain in the arse.

Still, it all goes to prove that communions genuinely are confusing.

Edit: Cool - the filters can't cope with British english (yet...).

Re: Communions
 

More than one, according to manual. The first one raises level (which as a side effect reduces fatigue), the others just reduce fatigue. This is how the AI likes to burn all those gems you wish it wouldn't.

Re: Communions
 

I always thought that the one gem spent by master to raise his level did nothing fatigue wise because it didn't raise the level of the slaves and that's where fatigue is calculated. Am I wrong?

Re: Communions
 

As I was saying, there was a big discussion about it awhile back, and it seemed to be a known bug that though it was intended for more gems to be viable (and so, you CAN eat more than 1 extra), any gems beyond the first extra, do nothing at all.

Okay, page 1 of This Thread has some good info, but I linked page 2 because KO pretty clearly states that you can only use 1 gem as a "booster".

Also, The Almighty Llama seems to share this same belief.

Re: Communions
 

You can only use 1 gem to boost your path and cast a spell you would otherwise not have access to. You can use multiple gems for fatigue reduction, and it does work.

My test: D6 PoD casting CBM Bone Grinding (D7,fatigue x 2, 30D gems, neutral magic scales.

1st cast: uses 1 gem. Fatigue at 99.

castspell: cnr143 spl396 (Bone Grinding) vis1 x6 y16 spldmg3^M
vis 1 xvis 1^M

2nd cast: uses 6 gems. Fatigue at 115

castspell: cnr143 spl396 (Bone Grinding) vis6 x6 y16 spldmg3^M
vis 6 xvis 6^M

I'm not sure why fatigue is 115 after the second cast, and not 119 (99+99/5) or 114 (99+99/5-5).


Also: it's annoying how when casting spells in combat, the casting algorithm does not like to use gems to reduce fatigue, until you actually have fatigue. It would be much more efficient to just cast with 2 gems both times, or better yet 3 gems, instead of 1 gem for the 1st cast, then 6 gems for the second.

Re: Communions
 

I'm pretty sure the master gets fatigue from the spell.
The correct formula for the masters fatigue seems to be:
Adjusted Spell fatigue = Spell fatigue / (1 + Skill in Path after communion - Skill required)
(Adjusted Spell fatigue + Encumberance) / Number of Slaves


Tests:

4 Witch Hunters casting (Communion Slave)(hold)...
and 1 Marignon Grand Master F3E1S1 with 10 enc casting

1st:
(Communion Master) -> Master at 20 fatigue
(Flaming Arrows with 1 Gem) -> Master at 35 fatigue
(Invulnerability) -> Master at 42 Fatigue

2nd:
(Communion Master) -> Master at 20 fatigue
(Will of the Fates with 4 Gems) -> Master at 122 fatigue


So calculating Master Fatigue for the Tests would go like this:

Flaming Arrows:
Master starts with F3. In the communion he has F5 due to 4 slaves.
Spell requires F4 with 100 fatigue.
=> Adjusted Spell fatigue = 100 / (1 + 5 - 4) = 50
Master Fatigue = (50 + 10) / 4 = 15

Invulnerability:
Master starts with E1. In the communion he has E3.
Spell requires E3 with 20 fatigue.
=> Adjusted Spell fatigue = 20 / (1 + 3 - 3) = 20
Master Fatigue = (20 + 10) / 4 = 7.5

Will of the Fates:
Master starts with S2. In the communion he has S4.
Spell requires S4 with 400 fatigue.
=> Adjusted Spell fatigue = 400
Master Fatigue = (400 + 10) / 4 = 102.5

Re: Communions
 

When using gems do you give each individual slave and Master a small (or large) cache of gems?

And are they automatically used as needed or is thier a way you have to script them to be used (man, this sounds so complicated and BTW....it took me 4 times to get thru basic college Algebra.

(factoring:eek: was my downfall)

So for us uhhhhh, mathmatic challenged individuals who will nod and act like we know what your resuts show...could you pleeeease do a summery in normal language so we can go ...AHA!!!, with the rest of you :o.

Thanks guys for all the help though:up:

Re: Communions
 

Ive run into a communion problem that I did not expect and I cannot explain.

I have a communion of 8 Bane's with Slave Matrix's and an Alchemist with a Crystal Matrix. However the communion does not work. The Alchemist does not recieve any boost from the slaves as he was apparently unable to cast the spells I had scripted AND the slaves do not receive any of the buffs that the Alchemist casts on himself such as Fire Resistance etc...

I was under the impression that Slave Matrix would work for anyone. Is this not the case? Does it not work on undead or does it simply not work on commanders with no magic path? I'm guessing from what I see here that slave matrix's simply do not work on commanders with no magic path although I'd swear I have read something that said otherwise.

Can anyone explain this or tell me how to make it work appropriately?

Re: Communions
 

Pythium Communicants are the only non-mages that can be communion slaves.

Re: Communions
 

I guess that means handing off my Slave matrix's to Troll Kings instead of the Banes.

Re: Communions
 

Wow, Troll Kings as communion slaves... :o

You don't have access to something like, Wolf Tribe Shamans, or Revenants?

Re: Communions
 

Well, in a Linebacker communion you'd rather have Troll Kings than Revenants. Although actually you'd rather have Troll Kings AND Revenants, since the marginal cost of adding Revenants is so low.

-Max

Re: Communions
 

Oops, I forgot you can do a communion in reverse. I've done it myself, just not that often.

Re: Communions
 

Yeah, Lots of Thug slaves, and a few masters with Ranged weapons casting buffs and then firing. Too bad it wont work with banes though..

Re: Communions
 

I still need more feed back on how to use that correctly.

Re: Communions
 

Just make sure you have a thug of some sort that has some Magic skill like a Wraith Lord, Tartarain, Troll King or whatever, Give them Slave Matrix's

Then give a Crystal Matrix to a Mage with Magic paths for the Buffs you want to cast, Have them cast the buffs you want which will affect not just him but also all of the slaves. Then have the masters switch to a ranged weapon or something so they do not keep casting spells and fatiguing your communion thugs.

I haven't done it successfully yet since I tried it with Banes first as I needed undead Leadership but that should be more or less how it works.

The More slaves you can add to the mix the better though as with 2 slaves they would only have a magic skill of one in anything they do not already have and casting buffs with 2 or more spell path costs will really fatigue them. My personal opininion is that 8 slaves would seem to be the magic number although it could be pretty difficult to scrape together that many of them so 4 might would have to do, and would work for most buffs since the majority of them are spell path 2 or less and that is what the slaves would have. But in that case I might throw some reinvig item on them even if they were undead that didn't gain fatigue from battle.

Dont get crazy with the masters though because at some point the fatigue the slaves gain from the communion would outweigh the benefits of the buffs they received.

In this case my purpose is to create a Squad of thugs tailored to kill some specific SC's

Re: Communions
 

If you have blood one casting of Reinvigarition should remove a good deal on fatigue on the slaves.
Also a lot of the buffs can be cast outside of Communion (Luck, Regeneration, Ironskin), so more than 2 or 3 buffs via Communion shouldn't be necessary.

Re: Communions
 

The blood spell reinvigorate has negligible results on B1 and lower slaves.

Re: Communions
 

Really? I've never tested, but I would expect reinvigorate to affect all the slaves in the communion, resetting them all to 0. I actually think it would be entertaining to watch a Helheim linebacker communion in action. Supposing a Hangadrott master and 4-5 slaves, you could have:

1. Sabbath Master
2. Divine Bless (E9N4W4?)
3. Mistform
4. Blood Vengeance
5. Soul Vortex or Reinvigoration
6. Charge!

Cost: 5 blood slaves. If you have an E1B1 Hangadrott you could throw Ironskin in there.

Hmmm, I should go play Helheim some more. Maybe after Gath.

-Max

Re: Communions
 

Soul Vortex hits friendlies - and removes Mistform. :(

Re: Communions
 

Might not be a problem if you spread them out, especially given Helheim's good MR, but okay, maybe Reinvigoration is best.

On the plus side: everybody in this communion is Cloud Trapeze-capable, so you can drop them anywhere on short notice.

On the minus side: it's very gold-expensive. Approx 1500 gold for this one group, which makes it a bit too expensive for raiding PD, and the force isn't optimized for taking out SCs or thugs without forged equipment. In practice it probably wouldn't be worth doing unless you have a big Gandalf-sized empire that's having trouble moving Helhirdings to the front.

Or else, hmm, maybe if your opponent has lots of good single-target anti-SC spells--you can drop 20 inst-thugs on him for the cost of only a blood slave each and/or any air gems using in Cloud Trapeze. Taking out an SC with Disintegrate only requires one lucky roll; taking out a linebacker communion with 20 slaves requires 20 lucky rolls. And Blood Vengeance guarantees that he'll lose a lot of mages making those 20 lucky rolls.

-Max

Re: Communions
 

Again Reinvig doesn't do much with b1 or lower casters. Huge difference between b1 & B2.

Re: Communions
 

You know, that's funny, Chris, because I just tried a Helheim linebacker communion with a B1 master (Vanjarl) casting Reinvigoration and everybody in the communion (1 master + 4 slaves) wound up with 0 fatigue. So it does work in this situation. In fact, I'd say it's a necessity for making a linebacker communion work for Helheim because Vanjarls end up with 108 fatigue after casting Sabbath Slave. :/ Soul Vortex isn't going to be able to deal with fatigue that high.

-Max

Re: Communions
 

Reinvigoration seems to remove all fatigue, except the fatigue from the spell itself. Thus if you have for example one communion slave (without any paths in B) getting buffed by one Sabbath master, the results are less than stellar (the slave gets IIRC 80 fatigue from the spell). If you have four or more slaves (without any B) and/or the slave(s) have innate B2+, then the effect is much better.

Re: Communions
 

Weird. I tried it with Vampire + 4 fortune tellers, CBM. 0-7 more or less fatigue removed.

Essentially: Vampire: BM. Hell Power, Reinvig.
Ft: CSlave, hold hold hold hold

Maybe I should try it again with BSlave.

Re: Communions
 

In case anybody is interested, I wrote a fairly extensive guide to communions. It can be found in the link in my sig.

Re: Communions
 

Yeah, that is weird. I don't know what's going on.

-Max