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-   -   Amusing trick. (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42523)

chrispedersen March 8th, 2009 03:25 AM

Amusing trick.
 
N/ NW casters, casting on the same turn: Swarm + mossbody.

Holy homing Bat grenades!

One square of dragon flies gets 10-20 prot. Die you dragon fly!
And yet - if it does AoE4 Dmg 1 AN.

P3D March 8th, 2009 04:01 AM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
One use for limited utility NW mages.
How can you make sure that the Mossbody would be cast before the swarm leaves?

Meglobob March 8th, 2009 04:16 AM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Chris means using 2 mages together, any mages size 3 or lower could pull off this trick. NW mages are great btw. One of the best magic combinations in dominions. You would after make sure the swarm mage cast 1st in the same battleround, easy to do, make sure he is listed above the mossbody mage not below.

llamabeast March 8th, 2009 01:24 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Why is NW great?

Jazzepi March 8th, 2009 02:47 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
I've always thought soul vortex was like, the defining spell for SC chassis<es> how do you pluralize chassis? :(

Jazzepi

Gregstrom March 8th, 2009 03:38 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
I try not to. Chasses, maybe?

Ornedan March 8th, 2009 04:03 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Chassis.

Web dictionaries ftw.

chrispedersen March 16th, 2009 12:55 AM

Re: Amusing trick II
 
Soooo you're going to face a paralyze spamming foe.

And you have troops with an area attack - like abysia's heat radiance. How do you get them there?

Set all the troops to guard commander. Give the commander hi mr (and prot from heat obviously in this case).

The units will still follow the commander around, even paralyzed.

There are a variety of uses for this trick. Surprisingly it works with elephants too.

llamabeast March 16th, 2009 06:33 AM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
What? Are you saying paralyzed units can move when they're set to Guard Commander?

That sounds like a nasty bug if it's what you meant.

Sombre March 16th, 2009 07:11 AM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
I wonder what else that command allows them to ignore.

Humakty March 16th, 2009 08:58 AM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
I think it is useful to add that you have to use a commander with less HPs than the troops guarding him, or he'll get paralysed in the first place.

Agema March 16th, 2009 09:28 AM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
If your opponent has that many paralysers, your commander should be loaded with well over 20 MR to resist, or part of an army with lots of high HP distracters anyway.

Jarkko March 16th, 2009 09:48 AM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
I've been doing that guard trick as Sauromatia with Hydras (the Hydras *always* get targeted first by the 100 precission spells, like paralyze) guarding a commander. I have until now thought it works (paralyzed Hydras keep on moving) because Hydras regenerate, but I guess I've been all wrong about that presumption. 10 Hydras (I didn't say it was cheap...) guarding a poison resistant commander who walks forwards is *mean* vs anybody who is not 100% poison resistant, and the Hydras just keep popping out new heads... Add in a fear causing item to the commander, and watch in awe this multi-headed spawn of a juggernaut rolling on :p

chrispedersen March 16th, 2009 11:31 AM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 680245)
What? Are you saying paralyzed units can move when they're set to Guard Commander?

That sounds like a nasty bug if it's what you meant.

It is indeed what I mean.

llamabeast March 16th, 2009 11:51 AM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Nasty bug!

VedalkenBear March 16th, 2009 12:05 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
I find it interesting that no one has reported it until now.

Sombre March 16th, 2009 12:30 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Well it is extremely situational. How often do you get paralyze being cast against troops set on guard commander where the commander actually moves?

Ironhawk March 16th, 2009 01:05 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Troops that get targetted before the leader, at any rate. Plus you actually have to notice. It does seem like a pretty far out edge case. However, knowing it now, its quite exploitable as chrisp says.

Definitely needs a fix.

Executor March 16th, 2009 01:23 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
There's a good bug with shadow seers and one with golems, however I refuse to tell them. :)

Ironhawk March 16th, 2009 04:08 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
You'd best tell them now, Executor. If someone finds out you are using them in MP you'll probably be kicked out of the game for cheating.

Executor March 16th, 2009 05:34 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Cheating? Hey it's not my fault I there are those bugs.
But ask me nicely and I'll tell you... :)

chrispedersen March 16th, 2009 05:44 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Well, I don't want to come down as hard as Ironhawk has - I'd like to hear what you have to say - but Iron is right - willful exploitation of a bug is grounds for getting booted. (See Sheep's guidelines etc.)

A classic example is the skratti bug - a skratti in its second form incurs no upkeep cost. Purposely keeping all your skrattis in their second form for the purposes of avoiding upkeep is a bug exploit.

Its a bannable because it seriously undermines play - just like hacking the turn files etc. Sharp play using your knowledge of the rules is acceptable -sharp play exploiting bugs in the game are not.

llamabeast March 16th, 2009 05:44 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Please tell us Executor.

Or else, please tell me. :)

Executor March 16th, 2009 06:16 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Well for record I never actually used them, although I was aware of them.
When you teleport shadow seer on top of someone they won't cast RoR and run back home, instead they'll just sit back and wait magic duel, there goes that Seraph...
And I remember seems somewhere that golems didn't cast RoR in assassination attempts.

vfb March 16th, 2009 06:41 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
That's just the 'refuses to use gems because the enemy is too weak' problem, isn't it? Or maybe the 'screw you, ruthless overlord, I'm casting Astral Shield instead' problem.

Don't you get the same behavior if a Rishi/Druid/whatever teleports in?

fungalreason March 16th, 2009 06:47 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
It would be nice if there were flags of some sort you toggle for each mage for "Never override my scripts" or "Always use gems".

Executor March 16th, 2009 06:53 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
That's just the 'refuses to use gems because the enemy is too weak' problem, isn't it?

And a mighty problem it is when you lose a Seraph with 150 gems of equipment to 180 gold shadow seer.
But I'm not sure if it's a "too week enemy problem", I know infernal disease is a good way to use up gems on some commanders since they do cast scripted orders, like rain of stones or whatever.
That can come in handy very much.

VedalkenBear March 16th, 2009 07:14 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
CP: While I'm not saying I would abuse the Skratti 'bug', doesn't the Skratti lose some magic skills while in its alternate forms?

vfb March 16th, 2009 07:17 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Executor (Post 680399)
That's just the 'refuses to use gems because the enemy is too weak' problem, isn't it?

And a mighty problem it is when you lose a Seraph with 150 gems of equipment to 180 gold shadow seer.
But I'm not sure if it's a "too week enemy problem", I know infernal disease is a good way to use up gems on some commanders since they do cast scripted orders, like rain of stones or whatever.
That can come in handy very much.

Well, then it's your fault for not wishing for a Chayot instead. :)

Also, I think I had a single shadow seer trigger gem usage by an entire army when he was caught by patrollers, so you're probably right about which problem caused your Seraph not to return (was it your Seraph?). The easy way to find out why he didn't cast Returning is to look at the debug log.

Executor March 16th, 2009 07:18 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Yeah, -2 research point for no upkeep, I'm not sure it's worth it.

Dragar March 16th, 2009 07:54 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Yeah, I don't think I'd have a researching skratti in werewolf form. And if not researching or site searching or using them as spellcasting combatants I would normally keep them in werewolf form anyway

VedalkenBear March 16th, 2009 08:00 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Executor: My point is that there _is_ a cost involved. 250g/0g upkeep for a 6-point researcher is still worse than 150gp/10gp upkeep 6-point researcher for 10 turns. 20 turns if the 150gp mage is sacred.

Also, IIRC, it's -2 rp 50% of the time, -3 rp the other 50%.

And that's not looking at the capital cost.

Is it balanced? Probably not. But you can at least argue the point. :p

cleveland March 16th, 2009 10:19 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
Lifelong protection + (Mossbody)(Mossbody)etc...
;)

Arralen March 18th, 2009 04:21 AM

Re: Amusing trick II
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 680209)
Set all the troops to guard commander. Give the commander hi mr (and prot from heat obviously in this case).
The units will still follow the commander around, even paralyzed.
There are a variety of uses for this trick. Surprisingly it works with elephants too.

Do you have a savegame available?
I tested with MA Arco 'phants and Illithids, and the 'phants got paralayzed and didn't move when their mounted commander did "hold, hold, attack rearmost".

chrispedersen March 18th, 2009 12:47 PM

Re: Amusing trick.
 
I'll see if I can dig up the turn I sent to illwinter.


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