artillery cluster ammo
 

This is not a complain, just thinking out loud. Is it anyone else that finds it a bit too powerful? I am not saying it is not realistic or it is, that's irrelevant with my point. Artillery is very cheap so even if you go with the 10-15% max points on artillery, you can still have very large amount of artillery. Don't get me wrong, I use it too and I get a large number of kills with it. I still have second thoughts about it. Enough so that I consider asking for future PBEM games to not use them at all.

What do you guys and gals think?

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Yup it certainly can ruin your plans. Is it too powerful? I don't think so.
Cluster ammunition is nasty.

Keep in mind that whenever you play a PBEM you can negotiate whats allowable beforehand.
I've played games where no air was allowed,or no cluster ammo allowed.etc.

If it is allowed you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm going to buy artillery or aircraft with cluster.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

It might benefit from a cost recalcalculation esp if allow ammo trucks to resupply perhaps doubling cost in that case.
The new patch will I think make using arty harder as in tracking fast moving vehicles with it so it will not be as deadly.
Use sensible in house rules like only 1 in 3 troops can be cluster, probably makes more realistic as well .
Banning it does not make sense as its a major deterent which makes you use diffrent tactics because it is so dangerous to try & avoid or limit its effect.
They are also priority targets if onboard
For several countries in what ifs vs major powers they are the only easy kill weapon you have vs a MBT, maybe an ATGM to if you are lucky.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

I wouldn't mind have an artificial increase in the cost of cluster ammo artillery, but I doubt it will happen.

I just, don't know. Perhaps if you couldn't reload cluster ammo, or make onboard arti able to counterfire automaticaly.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

The modern battlefield is a deadly place. I don't think its realistic to expect to get through it without something disasterous happening to some of your forces.

I've seen entire platoons of infantry disappear when the enemies cluster hits. I almost always use my MBT in a reserve capacity and there are never any close together. So if cluster does hit,it's probably only going to kill one.

I generally push my troops pretty hard in PBEM's.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

You could just go with the No ammo resupply allowed rule.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Cluster munitions for tubed arty were increased in cost months ago and will be included with the next patch. Roughly 40-50 % more expensive now.

Do keep in mind that the main killer on a battlefield is arty

Don

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Thanks for all of your responses.

Don, that sounds good, thanks.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

The new arty rules are going to make them more difficult to use as well, or if nothing else expensive to use besides the price increase, you will need good FO's in good postion to make effective use of even one shot.

IMHO

Bob out:D

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Get back in the game Bob! :-p

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

First thing tomorrow :o

As well, I have no problem if you want to have NO CM for ARTY & Aircraft for the next battle. Since both forces are Expidetionary in nature, running out of those muntions would ceratinly be inline with our Campaign.

Bob out:D

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

In my opinion cluster ammo are a little bit too powerfull. I have try to partialy solve that :

change value : HE penetration to 4 for 155mm arty
AP penetration = 222 (heat code for the old sub munition)
AP kill 6
Heat penetration 6

For the arty using EFP sub munition (like the "BONUS" shell):

HE penetration =4
AP penetration = 13
AP kill = 1
HEAT : 0

With this value cluster remain devastating against hold APC (BTR 50/60, M113 or pre 1970 tanks) but moderne MBT suffer just a lot of suppression, some immobilisation or kill if you have a lucky top hit.
Many moderne army have start to remove cluster ammo for political, moral (:D) reasons but in reality it's becauses this hold weapons systems are uneffective against modern vehicle and too dangerous for fighting agains guerilla or urban area (close quarter fight, civilians, unexploded ammo, ...)

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

May I suggest watching some video of it working the chances of not getting a hit are remote if it lands near the target slow mo shows target vanish in a cloud of explosions.
On the power may have caused ammo blow out but one I saw went off directly above the tank & blew the turret at least 20 feet in the air.
They stop using them unless we have a real war of course because they leave unexploded munitions behind for the unwary civilian to trigger by jumping in the air & spreading themselves in all directions, nothing to do with effectivness.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

.....and unexploded muntions under 4.5 do get created, nice touch guys!!! I've seen 0ne or two effected hexes per strike, maybe be strike size driven but at this point it's too early to tell. Again nice touch!!

Bob out:up::up:

They blowd up reel good!!! :p

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

At first I was opposed to the idea given the low percentage of duds (around 1-4 % depending on the model) the submunitions leave, but seeing how it's done and how it really usually is just one or two hexes even after an MRLS barrage, it's probably pretty accurately done. Adds a nice touch.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

I have watch a lot of video and yes this weapons are devastating against the targets. If you look closer you could identifie this targets as 1970/1980 era APC or tanks. THe officials penetration value for M77 dual purpose sub munition (MLRS and cagro shell)is 60 mm RHA with a heat warhead and 130 mm for the BONUS shell EFP.
Yes it's enought to obliterate an old T55 but T90, Abrahm, Leo2, ect will probably just need severe repaint (and lot of beer for the crew morale :p).
Of course you could have some lucky hits (or unlucky if your the target) but 60 for the HE penetration was looking a little bit too high for me (it's the HE pen of a 1000lb JDAM :eek:).

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

True, but do the math. Most spectacular videos are CBU-87/B, typically covering an elipse of 200*400 meters. That is some 62831 square meters, ie in average (I expect more bomblets would land towards the center, less ont he edges) 311 sq meters per bomblet. To kill a tank you need a direct hit - either on combat compartment or the engine - and under a good angle. Anyway, let's assume say a tank of 4 m x 7 m - that's just 28 square meters, and even there the vulnerable area is smaller. That'd mean that even tank in the middle of impact zone has some chance, though it would likely have crew suppressed as hell and will have all antennae etc. chopped off by splinters.

The cloud of dust from bomblet explosions for sure looks awesome and it's an effective weapon, but AFAIK heavy ordnance (bombs, mavericks, 155mm delay fused shells etc) is a preferred choice against armored targets, with ICM being used more for "soft" targets where you do not need a direct hit, a splinter shower will do.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

The video was an arty strike area about 3 times the size of the tank & yes it was an old one blowing up an Abrams for a test is probably expensive. Thats why I stated if lands near the area covered is not that much greater than a standard arty shell.
I will trust you on the specs the lower one would certainly strugle but the 130 if the tank was in the cloud would stand a good chance of being destroyed or damaged if hit anywhere but the front aspect. Even those Swedish mortar shells look pretty good vs APCs. In game how often do they kill late tanks if hit a platoon might kill one perhaps damage another. The game does not model damage but I would think sensitive systems like TI targeting would stand a good chance of not surviving. I use them mainly to suppress armour before my tanks strike as often only MGs fire back. Also against light vehicles like IFVs & ATGMs which I class as their major targets.
I am not saying you are wrong if those are the figures then perhaps a reduction is required but not as low as you have set because.
Game already determines if hits or misses if hits you can assume multiple strikes so the chance of hitting a soft spot goes up. Model this by increasing effect slightly & perhaps if someone is willing to do some research have more than the 2 generic settings used by most units.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

I have made a test :

LRM cluster ammo :
Warhead : 8 (still under testing)
HE pen : 1
HE kill : 60
AP pen : 222 (heat code)
AP kill : 64 (look to be an HE kill equivalent when you use AP ammo)
Heat pen : 6

Target : final result after the second salvo.

Egyptian T55 A compagnie (10 tank) : 4 destroyed, 4 routed, 1 retreating and 1 buttoned.

Egyptian mech compagnie : Only one BTR 50K left, 5 infantry sections destroyed the 6 surviving sections are running like hell with eavy loses.

Second test vs only tanks (dispersed on 10x10 hex area):

10 T55-A : 4 dest, 2 rout, 1 retreat, 3 butoned
10 T62-A : 4 dest, 1 rout, 3 retreat, 2 butoned
10 M60A1 : 2 dest, 4 rout, 2 retreat, 2 butoned
10 M60A3 : 3 dest, 1 rout, 2 retreat, 3 butoned

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

One thing I'd be interested in finding out is how much of the hits scored usually land on the top of the vehicle. I'd imagine that given the nature of the shells, most of the bomblets that hit the vehicle at all will fall on top of it.

I ran a test in MBT and the results I got were 25/59 of the hits scored were registered as hitting the top of the vehicle. Do the bomblets and cluster munitions use a different method than other artillery shells to calculate where on the vehicle the bomblet hits? Seems to me that the top hit percentage should be higher, unless the "side hull" and other such hits represent something different than literal side hull hits. I've always taken the extra penetration in bomblets and cluster munitions to represent the fact that they pretty much more often than not hit the top of the vehicle, while the game mechanics force them to hit the sides and front hull of the vehicle.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Some considerations:
Cluster bomblets are quite capable, for example the M77 used in the MRLS is rated as being able to penetrate four inches of RHA.
Most tanks, including many modern ones, have substatially less top armor than that, often as little as 40mm (protection level against fragments and such).
The Abrams seen from the top aspect is probably all plain RHA no more than 80mm thick at the most and probably less in several areas. Upper glacis appears to be a relatively thin steel RHA plate designed to cause ricochet and fuze failures against Sabot/HEAT but somewhat weak from the top, ditto for the turret roof (such armor scheme makes sense against the threats it was indended for).
Even the tanks where considerable attention has been paid to the top aspect, such as late Merkava, some late Leopards etc are still vulnerable in the engine deck (you still have to radiate away the heat somewhere).

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Urban
Fail to understand the test old tanks as used in the videos so I know they should go bang pretty often run the same test on Abrams Challenger or Leo.
Bear in mind as said game does not model damage to secondary equipment.
I would consider a tank that is hit losses its TI FC RF & maybe a weapon so it is less effective than a WW2 tank to be destroyed for game purposes.

Koh
Its hard to tell because the tank completly disapears even in slow mo but lets assume the tank is roughly in the centre of the strike which is about 3 times the size of the tank.

The central ones hit it on the top with a good chance to damage.
The others nearby fall around it so will hit front side rear with varying degrees of success & angles.
Ones on the perimiter just provide a blast wave no effect unless its a soft target.
Consider the top ones a direct hit the others a near miss type thing

It would be intresting to know the Db noise rating in the tank the crew could well be shocked.
Say a dozen hit it virtualy simultaniously plus the shock wave of all the near misses total crew disorientation seems possible.

On the total blast as in shock wave it looks more powerful than a regular arty shell blast probably because a lot of it is airburst rather than being absorbed by the ground.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

I wonder what it would be like if artillery CM only affected hex it hits directly and not also adjusting hexes. Do you think it would reduce any overpowerful feeling it has among some of us?
In my view, and this is speculation and nothing better, it would greatly reduce the amount of kills it does in a game battle. The user will have to be more careful, use proper spotters more often, and since artillery is still cheap (as it should IMO), it would require a slightly larger number of units for the same hits and it would create IMO, a more balanced usage.
All that speculation.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

You just need to keep in mind one thing. You have 3 majors kinds of cluster ammo :

- the M77, BLU 3, tennis bomb or golf bomb have the size of a 40mm (+/-) grenade and detonate on contact. The major drawback of this desin it's the lake of terminal aiming. So the ammo ares just realase and dispersed one a wide area. Some hit de ground and act as anti personale frag grenade (the heat jet is wasted in the soil), other on the side or various angles. On the final only few sudmunition hit an hard target verticaly on a weak spot.
Another thing some munition could be detonate/disable/deviate in air by shrapnel/shockwave of close exploding ammo.

- BLU 108, Bonus shell submunition incorporate some detector (mainly IR) to track specifique target. This systeme use EFP (Explosively Forged Penetrator) and detonate at an average altitude/distance of 200m (600 ft) from the target. In this case you could see an airburst with a king of lighting under the smoke (the fast traveling projectile). It's more accurate, more powerfull (bigger diameter) but you have less sub munition (2 for the 155 mm Bonus shell vs 64 for the old M77 155m cargo shel).
- the third are the mines but it's another unit for WSPMBT :).

I hope it's could help you to have a better wiew of you videos or pictures.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Well the one that blew the turret off was certainly multi burst as said 3 times the area of the tank but I would say set for airburst most went off at about half to 2x tanks height from memory hence you could not see it. May well not have been US.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Well, considering that the artillery cluster ammo in the game can easily destroy MBTs that are located 2 hexes away, which do you think are from the above?

(I am not complaning, I have found a solution, never refill them)

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Not quite sure what you meant but from my experince will only kill a tank in hex it lands in splash is only 1 hex total diamater of 3 & wont kill a MBT or possibly if the 1 in a 100 event occurs

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Then I guess we have different experiences. There hasn't been a battle where CM from artillery will not kill a MBT (and lesser armoured vehicles) from 2 hexes away. I am not saying that every strike on one hex means it will kill 2 hexes away, but the percentage is high enough to make it a frustrating but expected pain when it happens, and it will happen.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Okay me bad switched fast arty off yes it seems to if hits anywhere other than front assumed it was just a stray shell landed by it.
Think you suggested & in line with urbans post that it delivers 2 warheads (air more) you could reduce the warhead size to try & stop it hitting more than 2 targets. It does however deploy them at 1000ms on delaying fins so it has time to search for targets & probably should hit 2 most times if in the area.
Tend to keep 50-100m between tanks most of the time if expect it so had not really noticed just took as bad luck if 2 died.

As a note the mortar variety should only hit one (Bofors site & mortar)
The powerful version with sensors should probably generaly hit the top as arty models that it can hit sides more often in fact I think Koh said the penetration is probably boosted to reflect that

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Ok, have made another tests :D.

LRM cluster ammo :
HE pen = 20, Heat Pen = 10
Target = packed M1A2

HE bombardement :
Almost 50% of Top hit.
Penetration is changing from 0 to 20 vs HEAT armor factor with no "angle of attack" correction.
You have some kills vs hard target but side, front or rear hit will also penetrate softer target like moderne IFV or older tanks.

AP bombing :

50% of top hit

Penetration is changing from 0 (rarely) to 21 (:confused:)with a lot of result between 10 to 14. The problem is the "angle of attack" used for top hit. Is generaly 70° and rarely lower of 30° (looks like a strafing aircraft). The result is a to hight armor factor. Increasing the Penetration will probably fixe that but conduct to have "overkill" against softer target because side or front hit have a lot of angles < 30% :doh:

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

I think pure guess its supposed to represent both types of rounds.
Multi cluster high warhead for spread & good infantry kill.
How the tank killer works not sure no time to look at the mo but would assume if 2 rounds find targets small blast so could restrict warhead so just effects adjancent hexes does it give off a blast or just fire the projectile. The problem as I say is think represents both types.

Re: artillery cluster ammo
 

Another try with new setting for the second type of cluster.


Change weapon class for 25 (Top Attack HEAT-Inertial Guidance)

HE Pen : 4
HE Kill : 21 (i have set this value to 22 for most modern weapons)
AP Pen : 13 (BOFOR/GIAT claim a 130 mm penetration for the BONUS shell)
AP Kill : 1 (the ammo detonate far above the battlefield, so the anti-personal effect is probably very low)
Sabot pen : 0
Sabot range : 60 (seen to be the minimum range for 155mm GCT guns).

Result indirect fire (on board or off board):
With AP ammo, a lot of Top hit with low angle of attack (around 30°) and 13 points penetration vs stell Top AF

With HE ammo (classical bombing) it's look good, maybe to many top hit but the HE pen could be reduced.