Armoured Car Tactics
 

How do other people employ their armoured cars and light tanks? At the moment I just tend to deploy them as covering forces on the flanks of an advance engaging targets of opportunity such as fleeing enemy units. Also is their spotting capability comparable to other enclosed AFVs such as tanks?

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Covering force and chopping routed enemy? You got it!
Also can be used to bolster recce units.
As for vision, AFAIK treated the same way as tanks, but faster, less armored, cheaper = sucks less to lose them.
Brits have good combo, with light cars (Dingo, Humber), medium (Humber with BESA, Daimler) to heavy (AEC, staghound...)

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

If they have the speed very good for 2 things.
1) advance scouts
Move to an area of woods & park on edge with an exit route, turn range down low so it does not fire. If its small & stationary should be safe from view at over a KM great on larger maps.
2)ambush
set up behind something or in woods to surprise as player is lax not expecting an attack this early because your tanks can't be there, so he is often moving flat out.
Again an exit route is needed do not get involved in a punch up but this can slow him down enough to let you take the good ground.

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

The tactic I've used in the past was sent them out as recon, watch them get blown apart, bomb the crap out of that area, and proceed. The second part of this tactic was never planned but always happened.

Now, I'm trying to use them more conservitively as recon and as mobile light cannon and MMG support for my troops. They are also escorts for my mobile FO viecle. I'm also a huge fan of the German "Puma". It's 50mm cannon can take out a Sherman from the side or rear, not to mention shoot up all kinds of HT and Trucks. My current campaighn has two and they will probably get upgraded to light tanks soon.

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

I would not call that an upgrade the Puma is an awesome bit of kit highly mobile allowing it to get in position to take on virtually anything. If anybody puts one straight up the exhausts or offers the opportunity to some one else on a regular basis its this guy.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

I always find having a big(ish) gun on a more lightly armoured vehicle a terrible temptaion. The urge to manoeuvre for just one more shot tends to lead to trouble! I'm quite happy with a 20mm cannon on a halftrack i.e. 250/9, for recon as I know this will persuade me to avoid scary big tanks!

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

If you got the Puma's why not keep them?
As you pointed out they have great attributes.
You can always expand and buy light tanks for the tactics you may have in mind.
Just my humble opinion:)

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Sorry, my fault for the confusion. I meant to say that my current campaign has two ARMORED CARS*, not specificly Pumas. No, I wouldn't upgrade a puma, but leave it as is.

*(I'm running a USSR 60 Battle LC and have 2 BA-6s. Those can be upgraded to light tanks with good side effects.)

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

I'm pretty sure most AC's come within the recon class, therefore giving them greater vision than a standard light tank. In my way of playing, they are most valuable for guarding forward flank positions of the map, even if on the defensive. They sit in a position behind a good deal of woods, if possible, and peek through a crevice openingto watch a lane. In this way they are very likely to spot somethign without being seen, and then can still hightail it out of there. The ultimate, would be if you could find a very fast vehicle which could carry a very small unit, because the player could thereby leave the small unit behind for spotting if he so chose. Then he could leave the small unit behind or embark it back in the vehicle and pull out.

I like using AC's for infantry support as well. If you work hard enough at it, you can find spots where these guys can fight against units that are not routed, and yet not expose themselves too much to any fire. There is some German AC, that had drives on both the front and rear, such that it could go in what looks like reverse, just as speedily as what looks like forward (forward gearing went in opposite directions. Whether either set had true reverse gearing I don't know). I haven't seen a game that has ever brought out that rather unnoticed advantage.

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Where do people get off on quoting such utter bollocks from?

There seems to be some sort of voodoo folklore that some things have magical abilities because they are scout or recce or whatever.

A man in a scout team or armoured car has exactly the same Mk1 eyeball as a cook.

Andy

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Quote:
Its ex SPWAW players it cheats & gives recon units high tech eyeballs states it in there manual to<!-- / message -->

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

I've always looked at AC's as a fast way to get a look at what's ahead or good units to cover your flanks with and they are cheaper than doing so with your Main Force Units. MC's even better and little more versitile.

Bob out:D

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Mobhack: Well maybe that's from SPWAW? Do you deny that there are units, even if they are not AC's in the recon class, which can see units better than others (IOW, spot them from further distances than other units)? I have clearly seen this demonstrated on the field, as stationary objects are not seen by typical tanks for instance, but put a unit not as blind the same distance away, say scouts, or even infantry for that matter, and they spot the otherwise hidden unit. Now it may be I have never seen this occur when both units (tank and scouts for instance) had the same level of experience and suppression, but those factors were very close even so.

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Infantry always spot better than AFVs. They don't have to peek through a 2" by 6" slit. That's one reason why you need to group the two so that Infantry can see the enemy and the AFV can shoot it. It's not due to any "recon" ability.

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

There are no units with magic abilities in the game.

All spotting comes from the normal SP spotting rules. Infantry on foot, or as passengers, tend to spot better than naked vehicles. Stationary units spot better than slow-moving which are better than fast moving. Experienced spot better than low experience. Suppressed less than unsuppressed.

Size 0 infantry units can get a hex or 2 closer, so may well notice things the other infantry have not yet seen. That may be part of why you think the scouts have magic elven vision, but they do not. It is just they they are closer-in.

Recce formations can have a few EXP points more, but that is usually only marginally better than line formations. Formations have zero to do with unit class, in any case.

Andy

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Thanks, but I do think there is a case along the lines I've said, only it resides in SPWAW, which as long as I played that game can sometimes get the more subtle differences mixed up with this game.

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

I just want to make sure EVERYBODY who reads this is clear on what Andy said and I think it's important enough to repeat

Don

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

A little addition concerning spotting by vehicles;

Not all vehicles have the same chance to spot. Just imagine you're in the vehicle in question, the more it's closed off, the less you'll see out of it. What it means is that basically an open topped vehicle will spot better than a closed top vehicle (easier to look around). A turreted vehicle will spot better than a none turreted vehicle. The number of crew also matters; more crew means more eyeballs means better spotting. A 2-men tankette (closed top, no turret and just 2 guys) is just about the worst spotting AFV in the game.


Back to the topic of armored cars, I like to use them as my main striking force. I've played a number of (PBEM) games where I had no tanks at all, just armored cars. In the north african desert the british even had an armored brigade (the 4th if I remember correctly) without a single tank. Just armored cars for armor. And while the british excelled at armored cars they're a valid option for a lot of nations. Combine them with armored infantry in fast APC's and go for broke. When done correctly, there's little that can stand against it.

And yes, you can kick the **** out of anyone with them, even if they bring panthers and tigers. Been there, done that. The regular 2-ponder an get through almost any side armor. The littlejohn 2-pounder is just a dream (one of those nice dreams, not the fake ones). Knocks out Panthers from the side at medium ranges. The 6-pounder gun needs little comment and the 15mm BESA is excellent for long range action against soft targets. The dingo is an excellent point 'guy' and useful for distracting the enemy. They even have some flak armored cars to go along.
Did I mention I just love armored cars? Who needs thick armor when you have speed and some decent firepower!?

Narwan

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

;)Gee Narwan DID you mention you love Armoured Cars???:vroom::rofl:

That gave me a laugh, you bought up some interesting points, although those kind of forces certainly need to be brought into action with skill and I imgaine some luck I would think. Little Johns and 6 pdrs on AC's can be a surprise to the unsuspecting enemy for sure, I've had a few WTF!! moments with them, mainly because AC's can be a little disarming especially in PBEM battles. I've been on both ends of that deal!! ;):smirk:

Bob out:D

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

I think it all depends on mission type,what type of force you have chosen,enemy faced,and overall disposition to recon.

As an example i am trying out a armored infantry battalion,long campaign,during meeting engagements the scouts are never meant to engage but locate enemy forces then fall back upon the main force while keeping in contact,in the safest manner with the enemy.Thereby allowing the main force to meet them in the most advantageous manner possible.

During advance or assault their main mission is to move ahead of the main force then once shots are fired to fall back while the heavy lifters take up the slack.

During Defend and Delay they are to determine the main axis of advance..then fall back.

At no time should lightly armed/armored scout units fight it out,and even if they do their first priority should be to find a way out of the engagement with the least risk to themselves.

What they do allow you to do:

Setup roadblocks or ambushes.

Concentrate your forces to meet an oncoming force or to find a weak spot and once gain to concentrate your efforts and firepower on a breakthrough.

A single armored car or scout is as valueable as a platoon of infantry or armor.

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

No dsiagreement there, and well put especially for any out there who are trying to employ these assets properly.:up::up:

Bob out:D

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Can pltatoon of infr. be ko'd by a single shot?
And i always thought infr. is much better at bushwacking,but that may be only my opinion.;)

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

But first they have to get there:D Rate of speed is important because warfare is inherently geographic in nature. The fundamental military problem in steel panthers is a space-time problem, as Nathan Bedford Forrest succinctly observed "getting there firstest with the mostest." For bushwhacking a platoon of infantry, a platoon of infantry would be best:D but against the side/rear armor of an AFV a swift and well armed scout car is the choice that produces the goods:)

Andrew

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

[/quote]

But first they have to get there:D Rate of speed is important because warfare is inherently geographic in nature. The fundamental military problem in steel panthers is a space-time problem, as Nathan Bedford Forrest succinctly observed "getting there firstest with the mostest." For bushwhacking a platoon of infantry, a platoon of infantry would be best:D but against the side/rear armor of an AFV a swift and well armed scout car is the choice that produces the goods:)
[/quote]

I like your anaolgy of calvary in the Civil War:)
Being a CW buff.
The problem is here in modern warfare it does not work.
One pop or two from a ATG then the charge is done! over and done with and altough a valant effort just a big blunder.
Hope your not using 19th century tactics in 20th century warfare.
Remember the poles charging with lances on tanks?

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

But first they have to get there:D Rate of speed is important because warfare is inherently geographic in nature. The fundamental military problem in steel panthers is a space-time problem, as Nathan Bedford Forrest succinctly observed "getting there firstest with the mostest." For bushwhacking a platoon of infantry, a platoon of infantry would be best:D but against the side/rear armor of an AFV a swift and well armed scout car is the choice that produces the goods:)
[/quote]

I like your anaolgy of calvary in the Civil War:)
Being a CW buff.
The problem is here in modern warfare it does not work.
One pop or two from a ATG then the charge is done! over and done with and altough a valant effort just a big blunder.
Hope your not using 19th century tactics in 20th century warfare.
Remember the poles charging with lances on tanks?[/quote]

You misunderestimate me:D I'm just saying the player who gets to the objective first with his forces intact is then able to defend with an improved chance of success. I'm certainly not advocating civil war tactics on the modern battlefield.

Andrew

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

I like your anaolgy of calvary in the Civil War:)
Being a CW buff.
The problem is here in modern warfare it does not work.
One pop or two from a ATG then the charge is done! over and done with and altough a valant effort just a big blunder.
Hope your not using 19th century tactics in 20th century warfare.
Remember the poles charging with lances on tanks?[/quote]

You misunderestimate me:D I'm just saying the player who gets to the objective first with his forces intact is then able to defend with an improved chance of success. I'm certainly not advocating civil war tactics on the modern battlefield.

Andrew[/quote]

I know what you mean by getting there first!
It does force them to come out thier holes and Fight!on your grounds:fire:

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Nobody did that actually, the cavalry attacked an infantry column and when the presence of tanks was revealed, the shortest route to forest and thus to safety simply led through the Panzer column for a part of the Cavalry force ;)

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

That's i've read it was lance's on tanks whether or not it's true:

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Where did you hear that Marek? :D

Andrew

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Your take on the battle is more logical:D

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Although, i can't find any real proof of polish calvary rushing germans tanks it's is a fact they did out of desparation!

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Various sources, but Weakipedia has pretty good account
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krojanty

Apparently my memory failed me, as there were even no tanks involved, just armored cars.

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Marek is right. The story of polish cavalry charging german armor with lances is a myth. Never happened. But it makes for a good story so it keeps getting repeated including by people (and historians) who should know better.

@Marek
Wasn't there another incident near the end of the war in Poland where a polish cavalry force, or part of it, had to move through a german armored formation that was blocking their escape route to Rumania?

Narwan

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

I heard something also, but don't recall where, where they talked to some Polish vets, and they said it was nothing more than propaganda by the Germans to make them look stupid, as indeed it would be stupid to deliberately attack like that.

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Well I can't provide the definitive answer on Polish lancers but some interesting perspectives have been preseneted on armoured cars.

Reading Reset's appreciation of recon assets and employment reminded me of my approach to other wargames in the past which has been to strive to move aggressively and fight defensively. Certainly armoured cars can provide part of the advance guard to secure the terrain or objectives which will dictate the course of the ensuing battle.

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

Actually it would be a three-legged propaganda tool I believe.

1) Nazis. Obviously, "Gee see these stupid backwards untermenschen, lances against tanks tee hee..."
2) Communists: "Gee see these stupid backwards capitalists who were stealing money with boh hands and didn't prepare adequately for defense."
3) Paradoxically the Poles themselves - maybe I'm off the mark here, but a cav attack against tanks would resemble the famous Polish cavalry charge at Somosierra, hence "Despite being outnumbered and outgunned, our brave cavalrymen valiantly fought with whatever means available"...

(description of charge of Polish Chevaux-Legéres-Lanciers at Somosierra here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Somosierra)

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

I stand corrected,
Apparrently,I confused "Armour" as meaning tanks:doh:
The poles weren't stupid just using what they had availible.
And I'm sure they didn't just charge the armour just the fleshy elements perhaps..

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

That's what the article states. The Polish cavalry charged German infantry Bn, which got dispersed, the armor came in after that, caused casaulties and forced the Poles to retreat. Tanks came in the next day, and on that day the war correspondents came as well, so they saw Panzers and dead cavalrymen on one place...

Re: Armoured Car Tactics
 

To read some of the accounts, you would see that if they engaged anything, accidentally or otherwise, it was armored cars, and yet the lie has ballooned enough for people to not only think they were charging tanks, but that also the Poles were entirely a primitive army relying on horse cavalry.