Variety is the spice of life
 

I am prompted to write this based on posts over recent months as so many of you seem to be playing but a tiny portion of the game. Perhaps you should reconsider how you approach the game to get more out of it with a greater variety of play & a variety of tactics under your belt. At the moment many of you seem to be just scratching the surface & the 4 post types that get me are.
1) I always (or nearly get a decisive victory)
2) I always have German 88s in WW2, the best tank etc
3) The number crunchers working out to the finest detail whats best & then probably using as per 2
4) Sweeping questions on whats best

Why why why what happened to the rest of the game, guess what your battles & tactics will always be samey because all you have done is scratch the surface.
1)Talking mainly playing the AI here to start with if battles are easy adjust the AI% setting it applies to battles to now before you had to manually give it more points. Tougher battle will inject life back into the game but before you do this consider the next 2 points.
2+3) Okay how much of the game are you not actually playing why not pick forces differently, if you can say base on a real one or at least vary it. Always picking the best stuff means generally you are capable of going head to head with the enemy. Second rate gear or nation now you are having to snipe hit & run ambush etc dependant on your capabilities or lack of them.
In MBT take Russia as an example as nice varied big OOB
Don't cherry pick the best force buy a roughly real one so choices are
Armoured, Mech, Infantry (More of course)
First, 2nd or in Russia's case 3rd line force
So for game purposes you could do the following
Armour to infantry ratio could be anything from say 4-1 to 1-4 or even none depending on the force you are trying to depict.
Force type as in 1st 2nd
Armour late era T-90, T-64, T-55 (pushing it T-62 I think)
Troops Best gear, reasonable stuff, oh dear mainly Mr conscript
Transport same deal.
You could allow say 10% of your force to be better after all its your game & yes go 3rd line you have a big headache.
You can't touch his armour from the front & your troops don't really want to take them on either so you had better develop some pretty nifty tactics & oh dear you might lose.
Why not take out second rate nations for a spin to okay in MBT dependant on era there are only 3 or 4 main suppliers but there are nations with home grown toys. Why not try a conflict in Africa Asia or South America
How about playing Italy with its average tanks against Russia or another Eastern Block country assuming Russia is committed in Central Europe or uses mainly 2nd line units here. Remember the AI does not pick all the best gear you will be able to take on some just having to figure out what to do with the big boys.
If you are willing to vary your game play I am sure you will have more fun develop better tactics & become a more rounded player. You will also be able to answer question 4 all by yourself.
I am not having a go I just feel from the posts that some of you are not getting the full Camo experience by getting stuck playing the same old same old. Fine you vary nations do you vary force composition as well, if the same tactics always work the blunt answer is no there is a core set that are always useful but others are tailored to your forces strengths & weaknesses.
One of this games many strengths is the variety it offers & mismatch of forces & just because you are outgunned it does not mean you can't win, well sometimes it does but tis only a game & so long as you learn something what the heck.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I just read this and I want to let you know I think your hitting on some good ideas
:up:

Andrew

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I'm having a bit of a World War 3 fetish at the moment (I mean, the Gen. Hackett books on World War 3), so I've been playing a lot of campaigns based around scenarios in the books, from most sides.

My favourite campaigns are those where I have to babysit a force of elderly tanks and mech/motorised infantry (in M113's or the equivalent tin can, rather than in Bradleys or BMP2's) through a 30 battle campaign against huge odds.

Generally I like to set the AI buy point advantage to 300-800% when playing as the Western forces, to really bring home the massive local numerical superiority that the Warsaw Pact would have in a lot of places.

My current 4.5 Campaign is 1985 as the UK, a reinforced Mech Bn with an understrength early model Chieftan company (off the top of my head I think they are Mk 9's, with laser sights and stabilisation, but without TI), going up against what has turned out to be massive Russian and Polish forces.

It would ruin the fun somewhat if I was rolling around in Challengers, as really the only serious trouble they could get into is if they take flank shots, and are basically as destructive as their ROF allows.

However, using the Chieftans makes it far more of a challenge tactically, and I really have to think through the movements of every platoon, because while I can take out the majority of the Russians armour with a well placed HEAT round, from memory even their T62's can take me out.

Also, I decided to go for a Mech Bn because I wanted to go for a bit of realism, and wanted to concentrate more on combined arms than is normally the case when you simply buy a couple of companies of the toughest tanks you have.

One final note is that I only repair my equipment once ever 3 or 4 battles, which means that I often have to roll into an assault with whole platoons missing, or with half my tanks immobilised on the starting side of the map.

I would, however, like the ability to vastly restrict the amount of buy points available, since except under the worst circumstances (eg. battles where you've lost 70-80% of your troops/equipment) you always have enough to refit your entire force in one hit.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Welcome plastictree! :) :welcome:

You sound like you have some skills, I haven't even mastered using mech forces:cold:, how come you haven't posted here before? You can private message me if you want:D

Andrew

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

In regards to limiting points if I'm not mistaken you can adjust the point value of the Victory Hexes, I beleive they default at 250 per hex or maybe even vary. This may solve the point problem.

Bob out:D

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I was talking about purchase points Bob & setting the AI so it gets more.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I don't go beyond vietnam,my skills in modern warfare are little.:o
Take as much as you can handle if it gets beyond your means back off,it's learning processes after all, have fun but don't go over your capabilities and get frustraded then it's not as fun:)

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Word to that.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

When I get to thinking of all complex values of modern forces in SPMBT,
I go back to SPWW2 where war was little less tech and thats good:)

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I would, however, like the ability to vastly restrict the amount of buy points available, since except under the worst circumstances (eg. battles where you've lost 70-80% of your troops/equipment) you always have enough to refit your entire force in one hit.[/quote]

that would be cool if it could be done :)

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

that would be cool if it could be done :)[/quote]

I think it is possible to set up a battle where the player has less money than the AI, but not 100% sure. I have a feeling it can't be done on a campaign. I could be wrong though.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I think it is possible to set up a battle where the player has less money than the AI, but not 100% sure. I have a feeling it can't be done on a campaign. I could be wrong though.[/quote]

yup its possible in a single battle,as for the campaign IIRC in the game guild it says a way to make the AI have double of what ur money is,not 100% sure though

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

When you set up the campaign turn the difficulty level up. "Hard" is -5% repair points, "Harder" is -10% repair points and "Hardest" is -20% repair points. I suppose we could add another level ( insanely hard ) at -40% but it's difficult to belive it would be used much.

And yes it has been possible for quite awhile to allow the AI more or less points in a campaign than it normal. Go to the Game Data folder and read "Campaign AI Point Adjustments.txt"

Don

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Don, that is of course a great help. A couple of follow up quesstions please.
1)Is the AI restricted for the amount of units it can purchase in a campaign?
2)With the above tip, would it work to set the AI "boost" to over 200%? say 400 or something?

Also, although I have a feeling this will be a negative, is it possible to set the AI spending bonus mentioned, depending on the opponent of the current campaign? For example I play against country X Y Z and I want X to have 200%, Y to have 50% and Z to have 100%.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

*********** It has the same restrictions for the amount of units as the human player


********** I haven't tested that but I belive setting it to 400 will give you 1/4 the points of the AI. Couple that to the "Hardest" setting and it should keep even hardened masochists happy


******** No

Don

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Quote:

1)Talking mainly playing the AI here to start with if battles are easy adjust the AI% setting it applies to battles to now before you had to manually give it more points. Tougher battle will inject life back into the game but before you do this consider the next 2 points.

Wdll right we are now talking about point 1 setting AI buy ratio compared to you but consider the following as have already said several times.
Setting it to crazy heights does not work unless take following factors into account.
1) Total forces a side are 500 units
So say you have for a campaign a core of 100 units setting to 200% would give AI 200 units except modified as follows.
2) AI will have more units as does not buy all best gear so can buy more anyway. Russia vs Germany might end up about the same if buys some nice (as in exp) German kit. The other way round with cheap Russian units it could now have 3-400 units
3) Now its a battle in which the AI attacks so it is supposed to get increased forces. It cannot buy them because it hits the unit limit.

You have to remember this & its easy to check after a battle look at the enemy forces. 25 to a page so if it had 20 full pages it ran out of points.
I say this because I see posts of I fight the AI with settings of 500%. No you dont unless all you have is 50 or so units alll together or very cheap ones.

So this raises the other points if you want to boost AI points you also need to take the quality of your force into account. Also note in a campaign your forces gain experience, once you start getting units with 100% exp they cost 50% more than the standard 70% guy.
So a force of 50 100exp Germans vs 60 exp Russians probably equates to 100+ Russians if the buy points are equal.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Those settings you mentioned will certainly make the AI hard going on impossible to beat for even the most skilled player (which I'm not).

My question is: Is there a setting that controls how smart the AI is?

Andrew Nault

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think your getting at is the unit limit of 200 is way too low and needs to be uped if the "masochist" game settings are to function properly.

Andrew Nault

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Thank you for your answers.


I am sure all of us would want a higher unit limit for both player and AI units, but I have no idea if it is possible and if it is, how difficult it is. If my memory serves me right the limit can't be increased due to some hard coding.

I guess the easier way to increase the difficulty is a combination of increasing game difficulty (negative percentage of reinforcements), increasing the AI bonus to 400 and buying fewer than the 200 core units you are allowed to.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

You totally misunderstood what I just said. If you want to set AI buy to 4 times yours in a 20 battle campaign & allow this to still be true when it attacks your core should be small as in 50 units when reach 100 exp now equalls 75 standard (70exp) units.
So X4 =300 more if its equipment or troop quality is less.
Now its assualting can it buy enough units, debatable.
Setting to 150 or 200 max might give it a chance unless you always play with less than 50 units.
If you normally play with a core near the 200 limit setting to 130-150% is probably as high as you can go & on a defend battle you should probably still stick 1/3rd of your core in a corner not to be used if you spend any support points.
Why once gain experience those 200 units now represent 300 standard guys if facing a 70 exp force with identical equipment.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

The unit and formation limit can be increase quite easily but it totally screws up every existing scenario and save game and tends to bump into other game limits as well. I have a perfectly functional copy of an exe which allows 500 formations per side. This would allow *potentially* 2000 units per side


Andy and I thoroughly tested this late last fall and the bottom line is ( harsh as this is going to sound.....)we are not going to trash everything we have so a very small ( but vocal ) minority of players can fight what would amount to divisional level games and neither would any of the people who keep asking for this if they were the ones faced with the effort of rebuilding the game to accommodate what amounts to less than 1% of the players

As well, there is NO way we could allow a campaign to be played because there ARE hard coded limits to the number of casualties reported that one of these monsters would produce in no time. The save games are HUGE once there is a lot of combat recorded for playback and there are limits to that which has knock off affects to other areas.

Years ago we set up the limits on a firm belief that what we have now is more than enough to satisfy 99% of the players knowing full well it's impossible to satisfy 100%

However, that said I will show you want 1500 attacker units looks like zoomed all the way out and the defending force they would face in an advance/delay



Don

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I think people wanting massive forces should also take a simple factor into acount map height is not going to change as previosly stated by the team so the biggest front you can play is 200 hexes.
Just how many Companies do you think would be involved in an action on a front this size. For many smaller nations the represented force could be bigger than there entire army.
Dont get me wrong I tend to err on the side of largish games purely because formations & hence OOBs are set up to make getting a realistic mix of forces easier if you buy larger forces. 3 rifle companies now instead of buying bits I can buy pre made formations like a support company, a recon group, sensible arty AAA etc. If this was a Mech force with a company or 2 of tanks in support it suddenly blossoms into 150 units

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I have to admit I didn't consider the map size in this. Obviously any increase to the amount of units, similar to the above, would require an increase of the map or else it would have many other problems (gameplay ones).
It would be super cool if it was (easily) changed to have both increase of units and map sizes and not break everything else apart. From your sayings though, the task is just not worth the trouble for you and I completely understand that. As you said very few people would actualy play with such settings.

Tell you what, if you ever decide to make a sequel/remake, consider increasing the limits from the get go. :D

For now, I wouldn't mind seeing an extra difficulty setting (as you mentioned) to further reduce the amount of reinforcements in campaigns, in some future patch :)

Thanks for answering this.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I pressume you mean R&R points here.

Setting AI prefs to 130-150% for a harder game is a good idea I have changed it to that for ages now.
People who want huge games I am guessing are just messing with the game not playing proper massive battles. Limited tactics there armour takes up position & just plinks at hordes of probably inferrior tanks. Then they go & mop up & thats fine if its there thing but the whole reason for this post was to try & make people realise it can be a good massivly versatile game if you approach it correctly. If you want to approach it as a plink plink game that to seems possible but you are missing out on huge chunks of work put into the game. I for one know which camp I am in hence I appreciate the work put into constantly improving the game.

Sadly the way people approach this game seems hardwired as the main thing this has degenerated into a discussion on making harder by increasing buy points. Making it harder more varied & fun by varying your force seems only to get input from people that play that way anyway so mission failed.
Shame realy it does not occur to anyone that if say early WW2 the Russians come at you mainly with BTs & T-26s with the odd nice tank thrown in that perhaps thats the sort of force you should be using not a fleet of KVs & T-34.
Must be something wrong with the way my brain processes logic it seems diffrent to most peoples

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Imp, it is unfair to call people who want the scale talked about as just people who are either not interested in the game or real tactics just because you disagree with their taste. People wanting more doesn't mean they don't appreciate what they have got.

That was a low blow from you.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Quite possibly & I am generalising like I say my battles will often be in the 200+ area but just going on posts where people set to very high levels & feel this is what they do. I have done a 500 unit PBEM & if its a proper tactical battle takes a long time to do a game & remember whats going on, now where did that arty fall etc. I am not in the small battle camp as you can see do them for a change & raids.
There maybe someone out there that wants massive battles with realistic forces & if so my hats off to them but I dont think thats the general case & if it is as I said fine. If they want to go plink plink thats fine to as I think said in first post in this thread its your game.
Its also been stated many times map & max units are not going to change.
I did say in earlier post one of the great things about this game is its so versatile & trying to put misconceptions to rest like setting AI to 400% does not mean thats what you are fighting esp part way through a campaign.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

NONE OF THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN

What did I write earlier ?

Please tell me what part of that is unclear ? We DID "consider increasing the limits" and increased them considerably and considered the increases we made to be reasonable for the vast majority of players

Do you happen to recal the limits built into SP2 ???

I'll refresh everyones memory

3 map sizes with 100x80 hexes max

52 formations per player
200 units per player

125 core units

3 terrain heights

Don

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

It would be better if I said nothing more.

EDIT: the above was directed to Imp.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

probably.......

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

So you are telling me if you had in a good mood and Shrapnel says here is X money go and make a sequel/remake, you will just say, "NONE OF THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN"? Fine.
I get that you are not going to do this for this game, that's why I said IF you EVER make a future game then if you could CONSIDER. Also, saying that I would like something if it was possible although I realise it is not possible to happen it does not mean I DON'T GET WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

I get your point, you will not do this for the reasons you mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean that I and perhaps others can't dream.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

WdII you are taking this personally I am not criticising anybodys wishes desires or how they play the game. I am just making observations on posts people have placed & offering alternative thoughts that may not have occured.
The first lines of this thread I posted

Quote:

I am prompted to write this based on posts over recent months as so many of you seem to be playing but a tiny portion of the game. Perhaps you should reconsider how you approach the game to get more out of it with a greater variety of play

I gather you will be adjusting your AI% & have given you some idea of what you should adjust it to dependant on the size of game you play & the reasons why.
As my observations seem to be causing friction I will stop posting in this thread now.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Actually I was thinking -80%, which would come in handy during NATO v Warsaw Pact games, where you are NATO. This could be a good equivalent of a NATO formation possibly having to fight several major battles in a row without significant reinforcements, but facing fresh Warsaw Pact formations due to their passing through of fresh divisions.

And yes, I am the king of SPMBT masochists.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I advice you to do what I plan on doing. Buy less than the 200 limit, and/or don't buy ANY units with the support points, apart perhaps from ammo carriers or the occasional air sortie if that is your thing.
Or as, I think it was Imp who said it, don't always repair your units, do it every 2nd or 3rd battle.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I normally buy historical formations (eg. in my current British v USSR campaign, I bought a Mech Inf HQ which includes 6 SPMortars and Milans, 3 Mech Inf Companies without Milans, and 1 tank company minus 2 tank platoons), but never include support elements such as engineers, SP or off map artillery or helicopters in my core buy except when a formation has organic support - such as Armoured Cavalry Squadrons (or regiments? Can't remember which) that have an organic SPA battery.

I normally do go a couple of battles without repairing, but it would make it far more of a challenge (in a good way) and make people far more cautious if the buy points were physically restricted to that degree.

If you restricted by say -80%, using rough calculations off the top of my head, that you could repair one or two vehicles per battle, or replace infantry losses, or else wait a few battles and have enough points to repair a few platoons in their entirety.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

What is a mechanized infantry company headquarters and how is it different than just a mechanized infantry company? Do you mean mechanized infantry battalion instead?

Andrew

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

In the 4.5 (and I think the 4.0) British OOB there are a number of Battalion HQ units for Infantry formations.

From memory there is an Infantry (foot) HQ, two Saxon Bn HQ formations, and a Mech Inf HQ.

The Mech Bn Inf HQ contain a squad or two of infantry, 6 Milans carried in 3 FV's, as well as 6 SPMortars and a FO. There might be other units in it, can't remember.

Haven't noticed Bn HQ formations in other OOB's, but they might be there.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Might have diffrent names but yes most have them its your support company nicely provided so you get the right mix of weapons.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

Play as Sweden.

Hypotetical Russkie invasion, 1980s.

Swe Armoured Bn org (with Strv 101/2/4 Centurion):

HQ (Coy)
Bn Recce Plt (jeeps)
Arm Inf Coy (Pbv302)
Arm Inf Coy (Pbv302)
Tank Coy (Centurion, Pbv302)
Tank Coy (Centurion, Pbv302)
Artillery Company (105mm towed, trucks)
Supply (Coy) (Supply elements, Pioneer platoon, trucks).

I dare ya' :D

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

I remember playing as Sweden a 70s battle against IIRC USSR (PBEM). The Swedes had a beautiful weird turretless tank with stupid amount of armour on it. I was watching enemy shells hit and bounce off while I was destroying his forces. What a beautiful day lol.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

If as I suspect thats the time period when you cant penetrate front armour on the top tanks done it pretty much as you listed.
Revisit in current times nothing like killing T-90s with flank shots from whatever the IFV is called.
Also took them on as Russians current times in T-72M (high armour no TI varient) that was a bit tense.

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

The "S-tank" gave me some lulz as well:D

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

:)

Both the Centurion and the S-tank were old by the 1980s, and have trouble going up against Soviet armour..., neither have TI...hehe

The armoured infantry rides in Pbv302 (20mm akan, but no mg), inferior to all BMP types and in some respects inferior to BTR60/70/80 (Pbv302 is not effective vs infantry, and of limited use vs enemy APCs).




Or maybe you want to challange yourself:

Norrlandsskyttebataljon:(Arctic Rifle Bn)

HQ(Coy)
Bn Recce Plt (Bv202/6)
Arctic Rifle Coy (Bv202/6)
Arctic Rifle Coy (Bv202/6)
Arctic Rifle Coy (Bv202/6)
Arctic Rifle Coy (Bv202/6)
Arctic Mortar Coy (120mm Grk)
Supply (Coy)(Supply elements, Pioneer plt etc)

Bv 206 = wear plastic for armour... :eek:

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

There is no way I'm playing that one until I get uber skillz:D I don't hate myself that much:fire::hammer::rip:

Cheers,
Andrew

Re: Variety is the spice of life
 

@Andrew

LOL :)