New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

I've been playing EA Atlantis lately, using a cold scale to take advantage of the temperature tolerance of my Deep Ones. My Dagon, however, was feeling rather chilly, so I decided to make the Deep Dagon. I used the sprites for the monster fish and the Dagon as reference, and mostly slapped this together with just GIMP's copy, paste, rotate, and scale functions. Also included is a mod to add the Deep Dagon as a pretender choice for EA Atlantis. Check it out and let me know what you think.

<Edit>
I've done more work on the sprites and refined the stats:

Cost 125
Size 6
Hit Points 200
Strength 32
Protection 16 + 1
Attack Skill 8
Defense Skill 8 - 2
Precision 8
Morale 30
Magic Resistance 18
Encumbrance 4
Move 1/6
Age 3000+(5000)
Leadership 40/0/10

Water 1, Earth 1
Amphibious, Fear +1, FireRes 50, ColdRes 50, PoisonRes 100, Darkvision 100

2 hands, head, body, feet, 2 misc

Dominion: 1
New Path Cost: 50
Weapons: swallow, claw

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

i think its great work! could you post the stats ? im so lazy to download right now :)

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

I'm pretty lazy myself, but why not. Here are the stats:

Cost 125
Size 6
Hit Points 230
Strength 35
Protection 18 + 2
Attack Skill 8
Defense Skill 8 - 2
Precision 8
Morale 30
Magic Resistance 18
Encumbrance 4
Move 1/6
Age 3000+(5000)
Leadership 80/0/20

Water 2, Earth 2
Amphibious, Fear +3, FireRes 75, ColdRes 75, PoisonRes 100, Trample, Darkvision 100

2 hands, head, body, feet, 2 misc

Dominion: 3
New Path Cost: 50
Weapons: swallow, claw

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

You should reconsider his Trample. As it is, your Deep Dagon will never attack anything smaller than size 6 with his normal attacks, and he has only 6 AP so he won't be able to trample more than a few enemies.

I'm not sure if he's balanced or not. All that hp, prot and strength is frightening, but his attack, defense and mapmove really suck. Underwater, he's insane, but R'lyeh is underwater and doesn't really care about his elemental immunities, and his magic resistance isn't any higher than other pretenders'.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

You're probably right about the trample thing. I included it because the Dagon has it, but it makes less sense for the energy conserving ambush tactics of deeper fish. I was going for huge and powerful yet slow, so high hp, strength, and protection with poor skill and movement fit, but I'm really not sure about how they balance as they are with point cost and all the other features. I'm open to suggestions.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Very nice God. Is it designed to be a Bless-bot in addition to a SC in its own right?

If you remove Trample, it might 'work'. I dunno how the Swallow attack works, though.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

I'd say remove fire res, give him fear 0, remove earth magic OR lower both to 1. Or increase cost a lot.
Another option would be to give him base dominion 2

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

It looks great!

And, if the Swallow attack is anything like the Space Eel's Devour in Dom3K, then it's incredibly powerful for indie-clearing (AoE 1 insta-death, can't resist with MR). Checking the game, it's an AoE 1 dmg 0 attack with x2 to smaller beings. That's an incredible crowd-clearing attack, though I think trample keeps a unit from attacking when trampling (correct me if I'm wrong, which I probably am).

Hmm, Endoperez agrees with me! It's a shame that x2 versus smaller units will never come into action, then. ;)

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Nice graphics :O

Jazzepi

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Thanks for all the input, everyone. I've cleaned up the sprites, added the other arm, and updated the stats:

Cost 125
Size 6
Hit Points 200
Strength 32
Protection 16 + 2
Attack Skill 8
Defense Skill 8 - 2
Precision 8
Morale 30
Magic Resistance 18
Encumbrance 4
Move 1/6
Age 3000+(5000)
Leadership 80/0/20

Water 2, Earth 2
Amphibious, Fear +2, FireRes 50, ColdRes 50, PoisonRes 100, Darkvision 100

2 hands, head, body, feet, 2 misc

Dominion: 2
New Path Cost: 50
Weapons: swallow, claw

The swallow attack is the same as that used by the monster fish Atlantis unique summon. It is a strength +0 (x2 vs. smaller) damage, area 1, defense -2, bonus attack (as opposed to the claw, which is replaced by any equipped weapons). It seemed thematically appropriate, given that he is basically the monster fish with limbs, but I hadn't really considered the balance implications of dealing automatic hitting 70 damage to everything smaller than him in an entire square. I've toned back his strength, hp, protection, resistances, and dominion, and removed trample, so hopefully he's closer to faithfully representing his cost. I'm still open to suggestions, though.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

The lure in front of his eyes doesn't make him as scary, kinda funny... I'd change it to some type of horn or spear_like piece or remove it completely.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

I personally still don't get the fire prot at all, also he still has much better magic than I think is appropriate especially considering his powerfull physique

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

The lure is just what I would expect from an ultra-deep Dagan (how else does he see his prey???).

Fire Res makes as much sense as Cold Res in the deep ocean (down next to the vents and the undersea volcanoes).

More fun and (to my mind) thematically appropriate would be to remove the paths, make him aquatic, make him blind, and let him autocast darkness (he's an angler fish!!!). That would be a radical change that I might just have to make for my version, though.

Oh, and the sprite is beautiful.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Just as the Dagon is an Atlantian, the Deep Dagon is a Deep One, and Deep Ones have both fire and cold resistance, are amphibious, and they have lures. Regarding the magic skill, I personally don't feel it's that unbalancing considering his slowness and lack of combat skill and precision, not to mention his hefty point cost. Besides, living pillars need the earth and water bless, and earth and water are the magics of choice for Basalt Kings and Mages of the Deep.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Well, first, I like many aspects. The swallow attack is cool and thematic.

There are very few Pretenders that combine 2/2 with High HP and high hitpoints. He has higher hp than the manticore, the worm, the dragons.

There is nothing wrong with higher hitpoints per se - but he also has better paths:

For SP play I think he's great .. but for MP play I think he is WAY strong. Lots of ways to balance him, but how about:

Option A: He's too big to use impliments. Remove all slots but miscellaneous.

Cost 125
Size 6
Hit Points 260
Strength 32
Protection 16
Attack Skill 12
Defense Skill 8 - 2
Precision 10
Morale 30
Magic Resistance 18
Encumbrance 4
Move 1/6
Age 3000+(5000)
Leadership 20/0/20

Water 2
Amphibious, Fear +2, ColdRes 100, PoisonRes 100, Darkvision 100

2 misc

Dominion: 2
New Path Cost: 50
Weapons: swallow, claw

I think this is *close* to balanced - but if he gets regen (nature path for example) and/or cast quickness on himself.. he could get interesting.

Oh: As these creatures are also very tricky, I would have him autocast twist fate.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Don't lose the lure, the graphic looks great.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

First lures are not used for seeing prey, but to bring prey close within striking range. Only hungry mindless zombies would approach that huge beast for its lure.

Second it looks like a pack of scattered white feathers hanging from its head... and just totally UNKOOL . Seriously what type of god still needs to lure food... every god should have servants and sacrifices being offered. But I guess if we need a pretender with ambigious sexual preference... we'll have one.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Needs to? Or likes to?

Seems to work for women. Could probably work for fish.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Fire Res makes as much sense as Cold Res in the deep ocean (down next to the vents and the undersea volcanoes).

OK this isn't enough justification for me really. Deep sea is in general cold I'd say.

Just as the Dagon is an Atlantian, the Deep Dagon is a Deep One, and Deep Ones have both fire and cold resistance, are amphibious,

this is a justification and dom 3 thematic I guess.. I'd still say that they all shouldn't have that resistance though but ok.

The other idea's fate mentions would be nice to, and thematic but completely different.

You might not find the magic skills unbalancing but since after your post someone else agrees with me you might want to listen anyway. THe skills as such aren't the problem, the skill on that monster are a bit much though.

Chris idea's are nice though I personally would find a balance option with more (probably all) item slots to keep him viable late game. Chris idea about twist fate doesn't make any sense to me and I'd seriously never do that.

My proposition:
Cost 150
Size 6
Hit Points 200
Strength 32
Protection 16 + 2
Attack Skill 8
Defense Skill 8 - 2
Precision 8
Morale 30
Magic Resistance 18
Encumbrance 4
Move 1/6
Age 3000+(5000)
Leadership 80/0/20

Water 1, Earth 1
Amphibious, Fear +0, FireRes 50, ColdRes 50, PoisonRes 100, Darkvision 100

2 hands, head, body, feet, 2 misc

Dominion: 2
New Path Cost: 60
Weapons: swallow, claw


Or lower dominion to 1, new path cost to 80 and hen give him 5 regen (this is obviously a stronger option)

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Alright, I'll admit perhaps I was trying to do too much with a single pretender. I've further revised his stats, and replaced the monster fish lure with one that looks less like a feather duster.

Cost 125
Size 6
Hit Points 200
Strength 32
Protection 16 + 1
Attack Skill 8
Defense Skill 8 - 2
Precision 8
Morale 30
Magic Resistance 18
Encumbrance 4
Move 1/6
Age 3000+(5000)
Leadership 40/0/10

Water 1, Earth 1
Amphibious, Fear +1, FireRes 50, ColdRes 50, PoisonRes 100, Darkvision 100

2 hands, head, body, feet, 2 misc

Dominion: 1
New Path Cost: 50
Weapons: swallow, claw

Magic paths, dominion, leadership, and fear have been scaled back. Perhaps my next project will be to tweak with the Basalt King sprite and make the Basalt Emperor pretender, who is less physically and more magically powerful, though I may or may not get around to that with all the other stuff I want to get done on various projects, so if someone else wants to run with that idea, be my guest.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

I'll admit perhaps I was trying to do too much with a single pretender

it's usually the case with modding.. most mods are overpowered or on the top of the balance so to say.. not much are underpowered.


I think your changes are nice and the graph good. PPLZ playing atlantis should give this one a thought.

Personally I'd say you should make a mid-high level summon of this guy too (lower stats of course) I think atlantis can use it :D

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Option B:

Cost 125
Size 6
Hit Points 260
Strength 32
Protection 16 + 2
Attack Skill 16
Defense Skill 8 - 2
Precision 8
Morale 30
Magic Resistance 18
Encumbrance 4
Move 1/6
Age 3000+(5000)
Leadership 20/20/20

Amphibious, Fear +2, ColdRes 100, PoisonRes 100, Darkvision 100

2 hands, head, body, feet, 2 misc

Dominion: 3
New Path Cost: 80
Weapons: swallow, claw


Compare to the worm: Area attack, better slots, better resistances, better hp, better fear.

No regen.


Seems about right.....

My suggestion if you want to keep magic would be you'd have to tone him down a lot in hp etc. Perhaps 95 hp with size around 4.
Its not just the magic paths - its the combination of paths. Earth / water are very strong bless paths.

Thematically, Fire/Water would fit well with your fire and cold resistance - but again strong bless paths.

Compare Monster Fish with PoD - one of the popular chassis, at the same point cost. You're proposing better paths than POD, AND more hitpoints, AND better expansion capability - capable of solo expansion on turn one with a high dominion boosting his hp by 26/candle as well as his damage.

So please don't take it like I'm raining on your parade - its a great job, and much better than I can do on graphics. I'd love to include him in my ABM Pretenders - but too strong still = )

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Yeah, balancing can be a real pain. Makes me feel for the fine folk who have to do it for a living. I think I've done just about all I'm going to with this guy, so if anyone wants to make their own changes or include him in another mod, go for it. Thanks for all the input and compliments regarding the art, though I feel whoever made the stock monster fish sprite deserves most of the credit there. If I do more Dominions modding work in the future, I'll be sure to post it here. I'll still probably be lurking (in the deeps?), if anyone has anything else they want to add.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

It's a great first try at modding. Creating new nation-spesific pretenders must be the easiest way to start, I remember doing that as my first project as well.

And yes, balancing is definitely the most difficult thing in modding.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Wayward: Why does the Deep Dagon have a Dominion of 1, while the (normal) Dagon have a Dominion of 4?

I think this version may be a bit 'overnerfed'.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Vedalken:
Probably since it was a suggestion from very smart people, his version had a higher dominion originally.

To continue my reply on your post I'm forced to say the following though: saying a unit is overnerfed compared to another just based on one stat is sort of silly. Most pretenders have a lower dominion than the Dagons 4 but still I see them used more.. is everyone using overnerfed pretenders or is there more to it.

To answer my own (pretty retorical) question: no most people actually play with the strongest pretenders available to them and often those do not have dominion 4.

How can that be you ask?? It is so because pretenders have a miriad of other statistics some of which are at least of equal importance, strenght and or usefullness. If you look closer at both pretenders you will probably notice that the Deep Dagon has several thinks going for it.. I will leave it for you to figure out which ones I'm aiming at since I would hate to be patronizing.

Greets,
Aezeal

hmmm was this really necessary? ah well...

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

another thing for Wayward : I would increase his leadership value though. I'm not sure if it's usually a fixed value but I think it usually is and pretty high at that. Fitting for a pretender I think. I greatly applaud your insight to be able to nerf your pretender a bit but on this I would give him a lil boost.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Why would Cold Resistance make more sense than Fire Resistance for a sea creature?
Water doesn't go below freezing (and ice floats, so the coldest "water" goes on top).

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Aezeal: Mm. How wise you are, to know that you and others are intelligent.

As some people know here, I very rarely find any new content to be overly weak. Generally it is the reverse. I even noted earlier in this thread that the god (as it was then) probably was too powerful, considering its starting paths coupled with its Dominion and chassis. Since one was dealt with, I do not see why the others had to be reduced to the extent that they were. Also, the thematic source for the God (the original Dagon) shows that underwater 'monster' Gods don't necessarily have a lower initial Dominion than other Pretenders, like they almost always do on land.

Considering the above, I think that this Pretender should have a higher base Dominion than 1. Certainly, it may turn out that another balance may need to be found (I would think lowering its protection would be a good method).

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

A few comments on dominion:

Thematically, I also noted the Dagon was Dom 4: The dominion rating of the DD - did not fit. However, with a water/earth bless and a Dom4 it was essentially begging for someone to run a double strong bless with this pretender.

The last version I suggest put the dominion at three- as the personality of the pretender was different than a dagon - a striker from the shadows. Flavor, perhaps.

I always had a problem that dragons were dom 1, as well. I can rationalize it as the ease with which they attract human followers .. but even so .....

Lastly, on the leadership score - I can see the dagon being a poor leader - as he has other fish to fry, so to speak. A super combatant a competent mage - but a dweller in the deeps where not much else lives.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Perhaps because fire doesn't exist under water? Difficult (not impossible of course - this is magic) to get resistant to something if it doesn't commonly occur.

Besides as a matter of physics in an ice/water mixture, both the water and the ice are at a temperature of 32 degrees.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

...and 32 degrees is not _below_ freezing point. By definition, water cannot have a temperature below its freezing point (although if you try extremely hard you can get it below zero centigrade/32 F. Brine freezes at noticeably below zero anyway).

It's worth noting that air is a rather good insulator, by the way. Cold water strips heat away from you much quicker than cold air, and hot water damages you faster than air at the same temperature. Since abyssal vents present both extremes of temperature to the life forms that inhabit them (and they're probably the best place to be at that depth if you're a large organism and like eating), a degree of both FR and CR seems pretty reasonable.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

actually completely pure water won't freeze at 0 Celsius, you can actually get it much colder than that. Until you introduce some sort (any sort) of impurity, at which point it will all freeze.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

~ ~ ~ ~
water often has a temperature below its freezing point - if you think that its freezing point is 32 degrees. The behavior of water varies markedly under pressure, and as I recall from highschool, I believe every 33 ft of water is 1 atm. Ergo, water 2 miles down.. is under rougly 312 atmospheres of pressure.
~ ~ ~ ~

CR would be required to dwell on the ocean bottoms. FR might be useful if the creature lived in or near vents. CR > FR


This is magic, arguing which is more reasonable is a bit moot. The author can do as he likes. But, if a creature wasn't completely immune to cold, he would still be *AT* the vent. Whats he doing here?

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Beautiful graphics. Don't lose the lure!

A couple of thoughts/opinions, though:

1. I have to say, I hate the name, just because it's so derivitive. IMO, this guy deserves a unique name.

Here's a whole list of Lovecraftian entities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Old_One#Table_of_Great_Old_Ones

Maybe "Cthylla?"

1. I'd add stealth (0), since that's a *major* tool of deep undersea life.

2. I think it should be female. Maybe this is Dagon's "mate"?

3. Possibly lower Poison Res to 50%, because deep sea creatures tend to be a bit more fragile to environmental stuff. Plus it'd help balance my other two suggestions.

4. I'd love it if the lure gave like Awe (0) or some other appropriate ability, but I don't know how it could be balanced out.

Anyway, great work! Actually got me to post, which is pretty damn impressive.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

Deep Dagon is good enough for Dominions, but if you change his name into something from the Cthulhu mythos, he should be "Father Dagon". Not a female, because that's Mother Hydra, and that's the new heroine of LA Atlantis, the Unsleeping Queen or something.

I don't think Lovecraft's other ancient beings look like fish-men.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

You're right, Endoperez, but the reason I suggested "Cthylla" is because, while it is a Lovecraftian creature (the "daughter of C'thulhu", and something Brian Lumley came up with--which unfortunately isn't always a great recommendation), which is nice, it's also reminiscent of 'Scylla', which we don't currently have in the game anywhere that I'm aware of.

Cthylla is also female, and apparently a sea-creature, so those parts fit.

Dagon, for that matter, is actually an ancient, real-world deity.

It's just an opinion, anyway, but I do feel that the current naming detracts from the overall originality of the concept (which otherwise is very high), and if I were to add such a being to a game I was playing, I'd personally feel compelled to edit the name.

Re: New pretender: Deep Dagon
 

I would point out that, while most the deep ocean is very cold, it is also mostly empty (for the same reason). Life in the deep sea is concentrated around the vents, so it would make sense a predator like Deep Dagon would want it.

On another note, I have thrown together my own take on Deep Dagon, incorporating some suggestions from HoneyBadger.

Changes include:
--No magic
--Pathcost increased to 60
--50 PR and Awe +0, but no fear
--Aquatic (not amphibious)
--Recuperation
--Autocasts Darkness (this is the only way to get darkness underwater)

The autocast Darkness synergizes rather well with the 50-100 DV that Atlantians have. I might reduce the base cost to 100 from 125, but otherwise I *think* he is balanced.

#modname "Deep Dagon"
#description "This mod adds the Deep Dagon pretender choice for early Atlantis."
#version 3
#icon "DeepDagon\deep_dagon_banner.tga"

--Spell slot used: ?

#newspell
#copyspell "Darkness"
#end

#selectspell "Darkness"
#researchlevel 12
#spec 8388608
#end

--Unit slot used: 2400

----------
Pretenders
----------

--Deep Dagon
#newmonster 2400
#name "Deep Dagon"
#spr1 "./DeepDagon/deep_dagon_1.tga"
#spr2 "./DeepDagon/deep_dagon_2.tga"
#descr "The Deep Dagon is an ancient Deep One grown to truly monstrous proportions. Like all Deep Ones, it has perfect darkvision and is highly resistant to environmental extremes. Deep Dagon has spent so long in the darkness that it now follows him wherever he goes. Though slow and plodding, the Deep Dagon is extremely powerful, has developed tough, armor like skin, and has gained skill in earth and water magic. The Deep Dagon has a great, cavernous maw, which it is not afraid to use in combat, often swallowing whole several smaller foes at a time."
#ap 6
#mapmove 1
#hp 200
#prot 16
#size 6
#str 32
#enc 4
#att 8
#def 8
#prec 8
#mr 18
#mor 30
#gcost 125
#rcost 0
#pathcost 60
#startdom 3
#weapon 461
#weapon 29
#restrictedgod 21
#aquatic
#coldres 50
#fireres 50
#poisonres 50
#blind
#stealthy 0
#awe 1
#startage 3000
#maxage 5000
#heal
#onebattlespell "Darkness"
#itemslots 15494
#nametype 117
#okleader
#end

Thanks again to WaywardG for the sprite, I hope you don't mind my posting an alternative interpretation.