Help on controlling the AI please
 

Some help advice on controlling the AI please as new to this part of the game, read a few posts could find on currently doing the following.

Example of setting up a game where the human is attacking or assaulting.

Buy AI units set to defend buy any fortifications units you want dug in
Move battle type slider to meeting or delay any further units buy for the AI will not be dug in (also player troops wont be dug in if have not bought)
Deploy units
Now 2 options for defending AI to get some troops to attack
A) Save game as delay or defend & set reaction time for units that you want to move (plus waypoints if needed because they will still stay still)
B) Save game as meeting any units with reaction of 99 will move at start for others set reaction time for when you want them to move

Setting up a game where AI is attacking assaulting or meeting

All 99 reaction units will move at start if want to delay some set there reaction time to that turn


Once set up AI side playing with it as human setting all except HQ to computer control to see what they do but can you explain the following please. Just give number & yes no for answer perhaps with explanation if I am being thick.
Main things I am after is getting some units to counter attack when AI defends delays.


1) Reaction turn is when moves 99 the default is I think a special case as follows.
Meeting or advance unit moves at start.
Defending unit does not move but like a normal game will eventually go after lost flags so long as worth more than 10 points

2) Mucking about with battle type slider will not muck up 99 reaction time setting they will use the battle setting when save the scenario as in defenders stay put otherwise move.

3) If attacking & I want some units not to move at start but wait a few turns just set there reaction to say 3 & they will start moving on turn 3

4) Similar if attacking but do not want a unit to move as in attack on one front but have say flank or ATGMs hold position again adjust reaction time to when free to move (just longer)

5) Defending if I want some units to attack again set reaction time to when they move out.
Will they move or as defending will they just sit there.

6) Same as 5 but if I then give them waypoints will they move if not how do you get them to.
Is setting battle type to meeting when save the easist way

7) On waypoints they should be set so units generally move over 2 if want them to move fast any further apart can miss some

8) If want unit to move slowly should set to move over 3 will stop at the 3rd one

9)I read in a post or guide Plasma Krabs I think for waypoints to work need a reaction time of zero is that correct

If yes to 9 following questions.

10) If I do not want units to move till later but want to use waypoints will they stay stationary for every 3 waypoints placed in there hex so if placed 9 in the hex it would not start moving till turn 4.
Option B place 3 in adjacent hex so only moves 1 hex a turn. Does placing more than 3 waypoints in a hex do anything.

11) On 10 would setting them as reinforcements work better

12) Reinforcements if use waypoints still set reaction time to zero

13) Attack helos as reinforcements in an AI defend delay if I set reaction turn to arrival turn will they move/attack.
Really the question is how when AI defends how do I set helos to attack but say from turn 4 as waypoints for helos not sensible.

Thanks for your time & hope that made some sense
John

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Concerning the waypoints ... I wish it was as simple as that!

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Realise that but trying to keep simple so I get clear answers & can at least get them to do roughly what I want then its sit down with PlasmaKrabs guide but first I just need to be able to get some units mobile while others stay on hold.
I can get patrols walking round a base in a meeting but damned if they work in a defend & the reinforcements from the nearby barracks that enter just sit there instead of driving down the road.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

There are some posts by Pyros on doing this. Very good stuff. Not sure where in these forums but try searching some of his posts.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Okay me bad dont know why I mentioned PlasmaKrab it was Pyros post & link in the game guide I read. The only post I found of his relating to this is "Advanced scenerio design using waypoints" which does not help with questions. I can get stuff to function in a meeting or attacking reasonably well but can find nothing that addresses the issue on how I get some units to stay still while others attack when AI is defending.

Was hoping for some hints as even when you know what you are doing getting the AI to perform sensibly & then checking the tank platoon moves to the tree line nice & slow takes a lot of time.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

I will admit to being a bit ambitious in my first proper foray starting with defending a port from attack while the Marines land (or not) so I decided to try something a bit smaller with special forces scouting a lab then using same map to attack it as they spot Chinese advisors & scientists (hopefuly) which is when I ran into problems. Setting AI as defender the relief force that turns up from nearby barracks as reinforcements just sits there. Which is why I asked do they need waypoints assigned to move or should I set to meeting engagement but then my thinking says I need to set defenders reaction so they do not leave there posts.
The problem with this is I then have to guess when they should move to take back flags (well try)
Thats why I asked if reaction 99 was a special case as in what AI uses normaly. If I set reaction to quite high for them like 2/3rds way through if they lose enough flags will they still go early?
It will take a while for me to playtest & find out so was hoping someone who has done could advise me.

Also on reinforcements having arrival turn vary slightly by setting arrival chance to say 30% sounds good but set reinforcement units individually. Do the individual units check for arrival or the platoon leader & all or none turn up because the first case splits up the platoon so is of no use.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Ok, here is a hint on waypoint usage. You must always take into account the change of "turns" as the game will delete a waypoint on each change. So if you a section/squad to begin on the movement phase of turn 20 you must have already "clicked" 20 waypoints before the waypoints that will actually control the manouver you want your units to do. The one waypoin/turn is true even for reinforcements appearing later in the game.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Okay thats usefull thank you any other little bits of advice appreciated.
Realise how long it takes to get them to work now.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Hoplitis thats a big thank you they now work I must have missed that when read the stuff. Was getting dishartened takes a lonnnng time.
Any other hints would really be apprecited because as you say these waypoints are not quite as easy as they look.

If anybody has tips on controlling the pace of vehicles please post think I am getting there but still hit & miss. Sometimes units move to position & take station for a couple of turns but sometimes they seem to get a mind of there own :)
Again thanks

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Right now I am a happy bunny a couple of things first 2 I am pretty sure are a no but i might have missed something.

1) Is there anyway to just delete the last waypoint not the whole string

2) Can you force vehicles to unload would be usefull if they actually dropped off passengers in cover rather than waiting till in a fire fight.
Dropping off ATGMs MANPADS at a sensible distance would be handy to going for a play.

3) Any otherway of doing this
Mech infantry platoon want APCs to follow behind troops giving covering fire only way I have found to do is buy troops & APCs seperate so buy a rifle platoon & then swap them to mech infantry. I can then plot waypoints so APCs advance at 2-3 hexes staying behind troops.
If use a normal mech platoon the first thing they do is pick everybody up because of course troops head for waypoints to:doh:

A good point for anyone intreasted if do this with IFVs with ATGMs & a giro they can still fire there ATGMs albeit with diminished accuracy I think.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Forget the idea of following with APCs managed to do once somehow they just pick them up only way would be to modify load capacity or have passengers onboard.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

1) Not that I'm aware of, believe me I've tried everything I could think of. You have to clear all the waypoints for the unit and start over.

2) Another thing I'd love to be able to do but can't. Best I've managed is to have the AI move vehicles to a given point then add the passengers to the game as a reinforcement. This of course has several problems A) No passenger losses if vehicles are destroyed in-route B) If the AI decides to path oddly the passengers may not appear where the vehicles are.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

I am not sure here at all but if you slow the APCs to a crawl i think the infantry might get out if walkings as fast.

Dont think the game was really designed for this I still get very hit & miss & having a couple of logic toggles you could place would have helped no end.
Plot path with waypoints putting logic markers where you like.
A) Load unload passengers
B) Drive at speed rather than trying to control with waypoints.
C) If enemy visible stop use path 2 etc.
Couple of global ones to handy for raids & ambushes like once enemy is seen start routines from that turn saving you trying to guess where the player will be.
This really is where the program shows its age/limitations considering lack of options AI does surprisingly well sometimes.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Setting the waypoints, and getting them to work the way I want them to is, IMHO, the hardest part of scenario design. The OOB's, maps and storyline come to mind fairly easy, its getting the units to move and defend how I want them to that is the challenge, at least for me.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

DD,
I've done alot of experiments with waypoints after Pyros's analysis was included in the official manual, reading some of his posts in this forum and lurking in the backround during the making of the ANZAC campaign. There are a lot of things you can do with waypoints, Pyros insisted on that and he was probably right. I need some time to gather the material and formulate it in a readable manner. I think scenario designers would find it interesting, at least and hopefully useful.
...actually I was a bit disappointed because I thought that people were not interestd on the subject any more!:doh:

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

I've read, and reread, Pyros's analysis several times trying to get the mini campaign I'm putting together to showcase my USMC OOB revision to do what I want.
The "new" ability to use aircraft loading to split crews from vehicles mean I have to totally remake one scenario. But I'm fine with that, the lack of ability to de-crew vehicles meant I had to add vehicles as reinforcements to approximate the crews getting to them. This is FAR batter.
And the post the other day about how to make some of the AI troops defend during a meeting engagement was a godsend.

So yes, there's still interest, if quiet interest, in the subject.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Which thread was that? I must have missed that one.

I have thought about creating a more indepth scenario design but there never seems to be large amount of designer interest out there, at least not for campaigns. It mostly seems to be just a handfull of people.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

WAYPOINTS

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...ight=waypoints

Also check the "WinSPMBT Game Guide" section on waypoints. In it you'll find a pointer to Pyros' comments on the subject.

This one :
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...highlight=crew

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Any rough guides observations would be usefful I think there is intrest out there its just that most people get fed up after a few days of it not doing what they want & give up.

Things like workarounds for the scout vehicles (& tanks?) showing a total disregard for waypoints for first 3 turns. Delaying the whole force by making reinforcements till turn 2 is time consuming then they charge ahead for a turn before hunting waypoints one hopes.
From anybodys experience if you set 3 waypoints a hex in adjacent hexes for several goes do they unload troops

Defending during a meeting if you set reaction to 20 will they not stay put till then?
Barring losing to many flags ofcourse.

The hardest part I find is getting vehicles to move slowly (2 hexes in combat mode)
or stop for 2 or 3 turns in a tree line.
Getting the fine control to actually stop at the tree line & not in the woods or open is a might tricky to helped if just use a section rather than a platoon.

Labour intensive but if buy say a Mech Company & 4 tanks so ignoring Co leader have 3 mech platoons & tank platoon swap vehicles so mech platoon is 3 APCs & a tank if similar speed. That way they all use the same waypoints the tank should be the first or more likely last vehicle depending on effect wanted.
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Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Yeah, I've pulled a few "tricks" by taking advantage of the AI always moving units is purchase order.
Like buying all the scout units first then assigning them to companies further down the purchase order so all the scouts will move before any combat unit does.
Or making sure support weapons (MG's, AT weapons) are last in a formation so they'll be available if some unit that moves earlier triggers an op fire.
As to having units stay put during meeting engagements - I'm working with a heavily reinforced infantry battalion (a "standard" Marine Expeditionary Unit). So the scenarios tend to be long (40 to 90 turns) because I allow time for reconnaissance, movement to contact, then infantry speed assault. Since most WinSPMBT scenarios are either armor assaults or smaller then this they're much shorter then mine (side note, one of my pet peeves with many scenarios is the tight time restrictions that require you to do banzai charges).
All that said I often "need" them to stay pit for 60 or more turns and 50 is the limit using using reaction. I found out that manually setting unit speed to zero to get them to stay put means they won't op fire or often even fire back when fired on. If anyone knows of a way to get units to stay in place for 60+ turns I'd be more then happy to hear it.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

If you really need them to stay put but cant run change speed to 1 not zero so long as not by a road they are stuck.
Have not tried it but what happens if you call them AUX units & fix them?

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Inside the manual you will find anything you need.
Just read it more than once since its not that simple.

cheers,
Pyros

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

What manual are you refering too? Game guide?

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

There is pretty detailed section in the Game Guide, can't recall the section/pages. I have them printed out for easier reference. ;)

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

I'm going to have to find some way to print out the entire game guide. I don't own a printer, maybe I can do it at the library.
I have a feeling it's going to take alot of paper though.

I was hoping Pyros wrote a manual on waypoints. While playtesting
his ANZAC Campaign for WW2 I realized his usage of waypoints was quite advanced.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Here's Pyros' section in pdf format (8 pages).

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

He did and it's included with the game guide !!

There is a quick overview section in the main manual then in BRIGHT YELLOW box at the end you'll find this

And that takes you to the detailed info Mikes provided to you but it can be accessed independently by looking for ........

WinSPMBT\Game Notes\Images\Waypoints.htm

or

WinSPWW2\Game Notes\Images\Waypoints.htm


IDK what we'd have to do to make that information more accessible.



Don

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

No the information is easy to find & I thank Pyros for the time, it does take several reads to take in. Also just above the link in the main guide it states

Quote:

4)ANY change to the formation structure of either side of a scenario WILL CANCEL ALL waypoints for both sides so waypoints must be the very last thing that is done. A change to even one unit of either side cancels ALL waypoints

I am a novice but this seems wrong waypoints must be the last thing set on that side but you can buy & cross attach or even reassign units in the other side without adverse effects on waypoints set for the other.
Hence the "trick" of buying them after you have checked AI side is moving as you want by playing with them set to human & computer control.

Also in the guide
Perhaps a note blow by blow would be helpful such as the easiest way around this is.
"Make the map wider than you need deploy units so they will move directly forward placing the first waypoint in the hex they would enter without waypoints (Note this waypoint will be deleted as game deletes one waypoint a turn if not used) Now plot waypoints normaly so waypoint 2 will be the first it should follow."
Getting this part right is important because if it uses one more waypoint than you thought it can throw off the whole path.

I am not sure here might need to place it in hex unit would move to next turn.

There obviously is more intrest in doing this than people thought but loaded several scenerios to see what they have done & many just seem to use basic plotting moving at full speed & as it does not show waypoint numbers not that helpful.

I was hoping the old school would elaborate more or even take the time to do a demo scenerio with text listing the waypoints placed. Realise this would take time but a demo of how to get a vehicle moving flat out switching to 2 hexes a turn & then holding position would be nice.
Or even a quick blow by blow of your thought process when setting up waypoints first like.
Do scout vehicles first as ignore for first 3 turns so set to reinforcements or.
For reinforcements use 1 waypoint a turn is not used so if arrive on turn 6 the first waypoint used is 7.
For basic movement generally.
For fine movement generally.
If want a unit to hold position generally
How to get round APCs picking up troops.
I find the best way is to plot all general movement save then try & get the fine detail.
Blah Blah.
Its basically what has become second nature to you but us rookies well sometimes:banghead
Also nobody botherd to answer the question can you force vehicles to unload passengers, a simple no would suffice.
Things like be aware vehicles will disregard waypoints & pick up passengers even if from a diffrent formation if have the carry capacity.
Waypoint following can become erratic once get near enemy or neutral controlled flags.

Looks to me like Suhiir is trying to get some realistic movement like me & I am sure many others have tried but after a few weeks of failing give up which is why new scenerios & Campaigns dont get built. Already scaling mine back & in the end may well just give it up. After all I can't play what I make so may as well just go back to playing the game.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Wrong or not it's the way the AI works.
And believe me, being a former programmer myself I have a clue how difficult any AI is to create in the first place and ANY attempt to modify it WILL lead to unexpected results. So Andy and Don will no doubt be wise and not even consider trying to modify it unless something something is outright broken, and it isn't.

Try to think of it this way.
Turn one - Game removes waypoint one from each path.
Turn two - Game removes waypoint two from each path.
Etc.
Since any reinforcements you add that don't start the game on-map will be added turn one, or later, you need to create a stack of waypoints directly in front of the formation leader so it crosses a waypoint the first time it moves. So if you had the reinforcement arrive turn ten (10) you need to place eleven (11) waypoints directly in front of it.
Once a formation crosses it's first valid waypoint (11 in this case) it will follow the waypoint pathing until fired on or it reaches the end of the path.

Now, if a unit is fired on it will stop and do battle, but each turn another waypoint will be removed from it's list. Once the fight it is over it will attempt to move to the next valid waypoint.
Example :
Formation arrives as a reinforcement turn 10, waypoint 1 thru 10 have already been removed from it's que so it attempts to head to waypoint 11. If waypoint 11 isn't directly in front of it, it will attempt to follow the easiest path from it's current location directly to waypoint 11.
On turn 15 one of your scout units fires on the formation, it deploys turn 16, kills the scout turn 17, then reloads turn 18 since there's nothing else to kill. Waypoints 16, 17, and 18 have been removed from it's que while it was deploying and fighting so it will take the most direct, easiest, path toward waypoint 19.

That help?

OK, to do the example you gave you'd have to experiment a bit (of course) but basically you'd set six waypoints (since a formation leader will attempt to cross three per turn if possible - you COULD use just two, but the more you use the finer the degree of control you have) places such that by the time it crosses the third and sixth it's movement allowance for the turn has been used up.

Then you set the next three waypoints two in one hex and the third in an adjacent one - thus the formation leader crosses three waypoints in two hexes - moving two hexes that turn.

Last you place three waypoints in one hex (possibly the one it ended in the previous turn) so it crosses them without the need to move - the formation leader remains stationary.

Doing this will result in the formation doing more-or-less what you want, you WILL have to let a turn run, save the game, load turning both sides to player control, and check to see if it did what you wanted. If not tweak as needed to get the result you want.

This is one reason so few people do much advance waypoint work in scenarios...it's tedious, annoying, and requires many, many test runs to get "right".

Not necessarily.
Run some tests, see where they go most often, place waypoint four (4) close to there. They'll get back "on track".


Well I know one way :)
1) Buy the APC's and troops as separate formations. Make sure to purchase the passengers before the APC's so they'll move first.
2) Make sure you have a player unit placed on the movement path of the APC unit where you want it to drop troops (have to use a "fixed" unit with little to no movement speed to make sure they player doesn't move it elsewhere).
3) Take your best guess how long it will take the AI to kill whatever unit you used to force it to stop and deploy.
4) Create the "next" waypoint, the one that will be valid after the battle, for the passenger formation as close to the hex they'll be dropped at, or wind up in, as possible.
5) Create the "next" waypoint, the one that will be valid after the battle, for the APC formation heading a different direction from the way the passengers will move.
6) Since the passenger formation moves first it will move away from the APC's - thus when the APC's try to move they will not be in the same hex as the passengers - and won't (generally) move to pick them up since their next valid waypoint is a different direction.

Again, not easy or elegant, but doable.

See the above example for the only way I've found to force passenger unloading - if someone has another I'd love to hear it.


Making anything other then a basic "let the AI banzai charge" scenario is a LOT of work. Even if you know "how". This is probably the main reason so few get made.

At least that's my best guess :angel

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Hi Suhiir thanks for answering going out so just a brief note
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by Imp http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/viewpost.gif
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>4)ANY change to the formation structure of either side of a scenario WILL CANCEL ALL waypoints for both sides so waypoints must be the very last thing that is done. A change to even one unit of either side cancels ALL waypoints </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I am a novice but this seems wrong waypoints must be the last thing set on that side but you can buy & cross attach or even reassign units in the other side without adverse effects on waypoints set for the other.
Hence the "trick" of buying them after you have checked AI side is moving as you want by playing with them set to human & computer control.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>I was not refering to wrong as needs fixing or asking for but was refering to the fact if you buy forces for the player side after setting waypoints they do not disappear.
Have not checked if it upsets them somehow but in this post by Pyros its what he says to do
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...134#post422134

Therefore one of them must be wrong it either effects the waypoints in which case this post is wrong or vica versa

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Believe me Pyros knows what he's talking about.

I don't know why (I have strong suspicion but can't say for certain), but sometimes if you buy new units it totally screws up the waypoints.
Sometimes it doesn't.
To be on the safe side it's best to buy and make any formation alterations before you start trying to work on pathing via waypoints.

Again, just one of those "how it works" things.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

I am sure he does but the 2 still conflict Pyros suggests plotting the waypoints before buying the other side (point 1 in the link of my previos post). The Guide states messing with either side will mess them up which is right.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Suhiir I am going to be busy for next couple of days but will look properly at what you posted then. Is it allright if I PM or email you about to discuss further as feel probably best if just post findings.

A couple of things reaction 99 as I said i think is special but no one has said.
Reaction 98 is to I think that fixes a unit in place.
Another conflict I have found Pyros states in document guide links to right at start that Reaction MUST be set to zero to work properly. I extracted one of his campaigns & a quick look shows most are set to reaction of 1 some 99s & others so this does not match the stated advice.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

No, actually if you read what he wrote carefully he suggested TESTING waypoint plots before buying the other side.
It's an excellent way to watch how the AI moves formations.
After you finish using his method to test and tweak your waypoints then you buy both sides and plot the ones to be used in a scenario

I'd prefer to continue this with posts unless someone objects, I'm sure others have the same questions.
Also folks can jump in with suggestions or corrections as needed.

99 is the default reaction setting if you don't go in and alter it.
Setting react to 1 just insures the formation will attempt to move turn 1, thus follow the waypoints you set up for it.
If in fact setting it to 98 fixes a unit in place for the duration of a scenario IOU a kiss! This has long been one of my big headaches.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Some more Reaction Turn info here;

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...light=reaction

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Okay a few things from the game guide link I ask again is this right as looking at some campaigns it has not been followed

To DD thanks for the link

Quote:

Suhiir No, actually if you read what he wrote carefully he suggested TESTING waypoint plots before buying the other side. It's an excellent way to watch how the AI moves formations. After you finish using his method to test and tweak your waypoints then you buy both sides and plot the ones to be used in a scenario

If that is the case its a long winded way of doing it to duplicate it you would have to record every waypoint you placed.
It would be far easier to set up both then plot waypoints & save.
Now play as human vs human no password so no need to save unless want.
Do the same trick with AI side set to computer control.
The human side just click end turn & maybe switch off the odd long range weapon.
Its got to be faster overall.

I bought my entire human side after did waypoints cross attached it & modified 2 units without the waypoints disapearing. Then changed force again slightly twice without problem, saved & checked at each stage.
Mind you I only did 2 turns test to see if waypoints still work but the paths still show.
If I adjust anything on the AI side they vanish.

Was using the fact that player side did not seem to effect waypoints to make minor force adjustments to balance without having to start over.
It seems I have just been lucky but this is why I questioned this & hence am questioning reaction zero requirement as people seem to ignore even in campaigns.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Congratulation, you got lucky. The reason we added the warning to the GG is because sometimes you won't and we cannot predict with 100% certainty when you won't. It *MAY* be that code changes we have made in other areas has altered this behaviour in some way. If so, this is a good example of subtle " unintended consequences" in coding and WHY we really don't like to muck about with the code much any longer.


As you have discovered waypoints are a bit of a black art that few master. Pyros did and wrote extensivly about it and we put it in the game guide. My suggestion for "waypoint newbies" is to NOT try to get too creative with them on your first attempt. ( they are great for random "patrols" where you don't want the same hting happening time after time when a sceanrio is replayed )

It's like calculus in some ways, some people get it and some don't and some get it with practice. Until we increased the number of waypoints allowed it was more a curiosity than anything really useful and increasing the waypoints and allowing players to experiment was, at the time ( and still is ) a more viable option than tearing it all apart and redoing it from scratch so that waypoints don't disapear until your units actually cross them but changing that now would destroy all the existing sceanrios and campaigns that use the existing arcane system. ( which is the perfect word to describe waypoints in the game----Known or understood by only a few )

Don

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Just to echo the unpredictability, I have set up waypoints in scenarios for campaigns and at timers they work really well, doing almost exactly what I want the units to do. Then with other scenario's, it just doesn't want to work no matter how many times I redo them. I have wasted many design days trying to get it right on some when it just doesn't seem to do what I want. Maybe if I built a spreadsheet with Pyros' calculations based on unit speed, terrain, etc., I could change that, but for me, thats way too much work to invest in what I still consider a hobby. If I got that serious, burnout would surely follow. Thats exactly why I removed SPWAW from my HD years ago and have never reloaded it.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Does look like someone has smiled on me for a change & yes as said previosly to ambitious at start need to just get basics & then (possibly) work up.
As DD said they do seem to have a mind of there own at times you plot a few & all works great. By jove think I have got it then you end up scratching your head as the next lot do there own thing.
Starts to become a challenge I will beat this damn machine:D
With a big stick if neccesary.

Cheers for updating ANZAC link DD awesome work thats some serious dedication the team put in there.
Cheers for all input will get back to playing when I have time

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

"unpredictability" is inherent in the basic design and we have added to that constantly since we started working with the code.

There are ( literally ) over 3500 instances in each games code where "random" is a factor in some way whether it's a random chance that if a random generated number is greater than 50 then the AI will purchase a a particular formation in a specific date range or a 33% chance an entirely different formation will be bought for that date range and those randomizers extend throughout the game ( including unit movement ) to ensure AI behaviour isn't predictable so it's no surprise at all that sometimes the code will override the waypoints as the basic waypoint code does not , in all cases, take precedence over the code we've put in place to prevent predictable AI behaviour or how the AI reacts to ever changing game events initiated by the human player. To put this in perspective, the SP2 code "only" has 1145 occurences of "random" so we've tripled the "random factor" in the game.



Don

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Don
I am guessing the problems I am having coming to grips with waypoints pale into insignifigance with some things you run into in the code:D

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

The adage that no plan survives contact with the enemy can apply to waypoints as well. Once the troops under waypoint control have to react to the enemy there's a very good chance you'll loose whatever you've set up for them and they will revert to normal AI control. It really depends on what and how they have to react to whatever the enemy throws at them

Don

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Yes I am coming to the conclusion the best way to handle it is fiddle with reaction times & do some by waypoints but if set up correctly normal control should work fine.
Waypoints are better used for those units you do not want to go left right or head off down that road.
A bit of thought on map design as in placement of roads & flags can achieve some pretty good results. Place waypoints for the units you want to act contrary to normal behaviour.
Actualy watching the AI at work I have to say sometimes it does a surprisingly good job. Tank platoon & 2 mech platoons moving to flag group with a possibility of fire from round the corner of a hill. It deployed 1 platoon in sensible positions to procede on foot
the other headed for the trees by the hill if it had got tanks right pretty much whay I would have done & the tanks were not that far off

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

The AI actually does pretty good job so what I normally do is try to use waypoints to get the units headed for the positions I want them in when they start to make contact with the enemy. Then once the contact is made the AI takes over. It says design time and I try to remind myself, "no plan survives contact with the enemy". :cool:

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

Agree its the conclusion I have sort of come to & if for some reason once contact is made they dont revert to normal AI control become Lemmings following each other.

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

If any of the units in the formation are close enough to a trigger point (A close by enemy or a V-hex not in your control) then if it decides to act on it, the entire waypoint list is dumped as no longer required.

The waypoint list is also dumped as no longer required on turn 50 (IIRC) or some fraction of the total game turns.

If an element of the platoon is near enough to a waypoint then it gets deleted. Usually, the command element follows the path most conscientiously but it is the AI!.

The waypoint counts for the entire platoon. The platoon will head for it in typical AI crazy lemming fashion (any of you who routinely use the "All Formation" key to move troops a fair distance will know all about what happens then :) ). Each element of the platoon will decide its own way to the point. There is no concept of formation!.

Basically - the waypoint mechanism is used by the AI's own plotting internally. Someone at SSI exposed it to the end user on a "for what its worth" basis, most likely. It is useful for moving a blob of troops on a general heading is about all. It needs lots and lots of experience and trial and error to get it right.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Help on controlling the AI please
 

I find them most useful for getting the AI to take a "non-least terrain point cost" approach early in a scenario.
You can "force" the AI to make something resempleing a flanking movement and such.

Another use I've found for them is forcing the AI to make a more coordinated attack.
Many times AFV's and APC's/IFV's have different speeds, with a bit of testing and tweaking you can get a mixed combat group to attack in a FAR more coordinated manner then the AI normally would. This isn't a real issue on smaller maps of course, but I tend to prefer larger ones where you have some room to maneuver.