Ba'al and Unrest
 

Its been a while that I dont play Dominions and am playing a big map with EA Hinnom. I was surpriced when I saw my capital with almost 200 Unrest with no aparent reason. I had 5 Ba'al in my capital and even though they were patroling the unrest was still high. Once I moved the Ba'als the Unrest eased but it started in the province I moved them to. I had no equipment in any of them.

Now I cant amass an army of Ba'als as I did before because they throw off the Unrest in the provience they are standing in. :(

How much unrest do they each cause?
Is this new? I dont remember them causing that much unrest.
I am runing the latest conceptual balance mod. (If that makes any difference)

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Yeah, it has been added in recently. All of the Hinnom Rephaite giants cause unrest (that's the Kohen, Ba'al & Melqart).

The biggest issue is with the Hinnom Blood hunting though, which now requires you to patrol your territories well. Melqarts are still stellar (yet hellisly expensive) blood hunters though, if you can spare them.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

I dont think i like hinnom any more :(

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Then try Ashdod!
They were probably just as good to start with and they haven't been changed yet, and they don't have nearly as harsh competition.

That, or try any of the other of the many great EA Races.
Caelum for example has a fun chassi to experiment with in the Eagle King, but that's just an imho.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

I tend to play with nations that have strong PD and good magic options. Hinnom was perfect before, perfect in the sence that it was Overpowered. Now the strong commanders are neutralized by high Unrest generation wich does not let you accumulate in a province as easily as before. :(

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

There are, a few pretenders that neutralize unrest. I don't believe hinnom gets them - but you could look.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Ashdod was more overpowered than Hinnom. And it didn't get nerfed at all. It's the most overpowered nation ever.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

I would love a discussion about the respective merits of Gath in the different ages but I figure you were just thinking "the rest of MA sucks in comparsion with Ashdod unlike Hinnom, the EA has many great nations" ;)

The stupid part about old Hinnom was their troops, them being normalized had a larger effect on the nation than the Unrest (in my humble opinion).

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Huh?

I'll take EA-Niefle, mictlan, Lanka, sauromatia, LA-Mictlan over ashdod any day.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Im with you, EA-Niefle is very very powerfull. Variable magic paths, strong high hp sacred and regular troops.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

No! You mustn't touch Ashdod, it will permanently warp your sense of nation balance. To quote Cleveland, "DO NOT SEEK... THE TREASURE."

-Max

(Well, okay, you can try them out if you want. But don't say nobody warned you.)

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Really Chris? You don't think Ashdod is overpowered. Hmmph. Try fighting them in mp sometime.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

I have played with them and against them. I will happily take sauromatia against hinnom, gath or ashdod.

Androphag archers are death to giants. Period.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Well, Ok, I'll take your word for it. I have never played Sauro.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

My main gripe with Ashdod is that they have the quickest research, stir with Zamzummites and you don't even need thugs.
Not that it's necessary to focus on one or the other, Ashdod is one of the nations that can do everything (perhaps the only).

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Ashdod has nowhere NEAR the quickest research.

Ashdod has the same advantage of EA-Niefle - that the SC's can be used as mages or as researchers.

But they are still 500 gp (sacred) for 9 RP, or 200ns for 6
Compare to, oh say, Bogarus 250 gp for 12. or 160 for 8.

Compare to EA-Arco 400 gp sacred for 9, or 150ns ??? for 5.

Theres a *lot* of nations that are faster than ashdod in research.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Yeah, never thought of Ashdod as the research King, although they often end up being so. Mostly thought of them like Nief, early thuggers.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Have you seen the rephaite sage?
Build anywhere without a lab 6 research for 175 gold; When Ashdod has forests it is the quickest research nation, they get 800g forts in forests.

That plus a native fire (fire has a forge bonus) and death casting for research items with the construction they usually go for early.

Other nations have trouble, comparatively, Arco's mystic needs a lab to be built and is a worse researcher, no nation can rely on cap-only researchers (and Oreiads aren't any better than Ashdod's Talmai Elder)). Bogarus expands slowly and their research usually suffers from it, though they have good potential due to the Master of Names. Shinuyama (who often ends up leading in research for the MA) suffers from having to build both labs and temples and having mostly expensive forts.

Ashdod is a research machine-gun, though of course, that's just spice; they are also giant nation.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

This stat-line is CBM, they are more efficient outside it.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Mystics with 3?'s on average are better researchers, not worse, and arco pays half price for labs while its forts are the same or cheaper. Give a small nod to philosophers as well.

However I grant the point about the skull mentors.

Would be interesting if skull mentors were toned down just a little; they are clearly the preeminent research item.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

I would be more interested in improving the other research items. They seem underpowered in general to me.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Owl quill is underpowered, mostly because of the small return for a mage turn, but used early enough can still be worthwhile. Lightless lanterns are useful, in particular because there aren't a lot of good uses for fire gems outside of direct combat use. Skull mentor is the best, certainly, but it costs use of one of the best gem types, so it doesn't see as much play (from what I've seen) as the lanterns.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Have you ever seen the Minister of Magic?
Built anywhere without a lab 5 research for 70 gold. When Tien Chi has swamps(800gp castle) or even forests or plains (1000 gp castle) it is the quickest research nation.
That plus a native fire and ability to make mass fetishes makes them a research plasma-gun :) if they manage to set up good expansion.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

True_That

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Well, I did mean that everything Ashdod does is unique, just that it's one of those strengths that aren't readily apparent but can be capitalized on, like their mild inoculation against flaming arrows/fire bless or cheap Slingers to leverage with buffs/use as wall breakers/as patrollers.

If you want to break it down to every component part T'ien Ch'i has an advantage in the Minister of Magic, though I think that holistically Ashdod is just as "quick" a researcher due to their ability to expand and great benefit from going construction early; T'ien Ch'i can't leverage magic items as well as Ashdod thugs.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

No, I don't mean to compare these races - they're too different, of course. I don't consider MA TC powerful at all because they have a lot of weaknesses. Good magic oriented nation, nothing more.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Hinnom:
-Able to side-search every magic path but water.
-Good blood nation
-Tramplers and good troops with magic weapons
-recruiteable okay thugs.

The nation is so powerful, a little unrest does not hurt.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Actually, unrest hurts. It forces you to patrol your capital continuously (or lower taxes) and/or recruit less of your capital-only thugs and giant troops initially.

Re: Ba'al and Unrest
 

Of course it hurts but does it hurt enough? ;)

The effect is quite low, if you sent all unrest produces out, as soon as they are recruited. If you have taken sloth or at least no productivity, your first expansion might just be a (low income) mountain. As tough as Baals are, there is no problem having them research and cast rituals in labs on the open, either. And Melquats charge the enemy anyway.