Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

I'm collecting ideas for the next Version of P&N, to be completed for the CD.

Right now, I've only got three major things that would require a Humans-Only Version of P&N, and need more.
Feel free to add suggestions!


So far, the next Version of P&N will include:
- remove engine limits: they have no real effect right now, anyways. If you get an RCE while adding a stack of engines, you should know enough to subtract engines until there's no RCE.
- Add engine disruptor defenses. This couldn't be done because of the engine limit above.
- Spread out the cost of Buckytube Gel armor. Buckytubes are made of carbon -> organics, rather than minerals.
- BattleMoons to require some SM tech as well as ship/base construction.
- Partially specialized Monoliths: monoliths require resource extraction tech, and Versions that produce slightly more of one or two resources will appear, depending on your tech in the resource extraction areas.

Things that the AI can't handle OR ignore, and will be in the Humans-only P&N:
- Supplies will be a commodity; resupply depots are out, Quantum reactors are out (or possibly SM-style pricey), and bases have limited supply. Not sure what to do about fighters. They may be tiny ships, or sats with combat movement, or something.
- Fighters will be converted to quasi-newtonian propulsion
- Large engines: no more 40 engine DNs, just use 8 Capital Ship Drives. Save on mouseclicks, probably impervious to engine-damaging weapons (ion mines hurt though), and easy to replace/repair.


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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 19 October 2001).]

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Suggestions? Anybody?

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
So far, the next Version of P&N will include:
- remove engine limits: they have no real effect right now, anyways. If you get an RCE while adding a stack of engines, you should know enough to subtract engines until there's no RCE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what actual effect does this have? The small ships are too small to hit the engine limit, and the large ships just hit the RCE, so it's the same thing only less newbie friendly.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- Add engine disruptor defenses. This couldn't be done because of the engine limit above.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good luck.. I tried these myself, couldn't get them to work!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- Fighters will be converted to quasi-newtonian propulsion<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>See the good luck above http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- BattleMoons to require some SM tech as well as ship/base construction.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good..
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- Partially specialized Monoliths: monoliths require resource extraction tech, and Versions that produce slightly more of one or two resources will appear, depending on your tech in the resource extraction areas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm, interesting. Going to be a bunch of extra facilities though.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Things that the AI can't handle OR ignore, and will be in the Humans-only P&N:
- Supplies will be a commodity; resupply depots are out, Quantum reactors are out (or possibly SM-style pricey), and bases have limited supply.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How will you do the limited supply for bases? Call them ships? I think the base infinite supply is hardcoded. Speaking of which, how does a base (or anyone else, for that matter, without the depots) resupply? Fleet with resupply ships I guess..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Not sure what to do about fighters. They may be tiny ships, or sats with combat movement, or something.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dunno.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- Large engines: no more 40 engine DNs, just use 8 Capital Ship Drives. Save on mouseclicks, probably impervious to engine-damaging weapons (ion mines hurt though), and easy to replace/repair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Very good http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I'd suggest multiple levels of this sort of thing. Cruiser engines, etc.

Phoenix-D

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

As of P&Nv2.3c, when you use quantum engines, the 42 engine limit is just before the RCE point. So you will get an RCE, then notice the warning about too many engines.
This way, you can put on 84 ion engines to get the same speed as 42 quantums, without an illegal design.

The Engine disruptor defenses will be just like my defenses for weapon, shield gen, armor piercing and null space weapons.
Basically, it is a tough engine, that provides no movement, just absorbs hits.

Fighters are set, just like ships, but I just realized that they will screw up the AIs. The QNP for fighters is moved down to the humans-only section.

Monoliths: I'm only making 13 monoliths, one for L1 tech, 6 for L2 tech, and 6 for L3 tech. You can't get level 3 in one resource without having level 2 in the other resources.

Yep Bases -&gt; ships with no movement, and all their classic abilities except supply generation.
The best idea would be to put solar panels on your bases, making them into orbital power facilities, used to resupply your ships via fleeting.
Supply generation bases will become a prime military target http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Would 3 sizes be enough? You can always mix them to fill in the leftover space, without losing efficiency.

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

"The Engine disruptor defenses will be just like my defenses for weapon, shield gen, armor piercing and null space weapons.
Basically, it is a tough engine, that provides no movement, just absorbs hits."

I tried that for both engine AND shield protection. For whatever reason, it didn't do anything. Worked for weapons, though.

Phoenix-D

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Hmm. That's odd. Well, its ok. I'll just give the ion sinks 1 movement point. Since it would take 90KT of them to move an escort at speed one, they won't be abused http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Now for shields... I'll try giving them a small negative shield generation, plus a small positive to canel it out.

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

I'm fresh out of weapon ideas, unless you want to borrow some from TechMod (hey, I took your movement and battlemoons, so it's all good http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif)

Rockets- direct fire CSMs with a penalty to-hit
Singularity Cannon- skips everything, 50000 damage. Downside? It only does that damage at range 5, damage drops off drasticly from there. Plus the expense. Plus the size. Plus the insane reload time http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Warp Cannons: a reason to get the warp weapons tech area. Skips all shields, damage ramps UP at range. I made em 20-30-40-50-60 at max level..

Phoenix-D

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Ok, the stupid shield tricks aren't working. I'm just gonna drop the specialized shield protector: players can just use armored generators or heavy generators, both of which will resist damage very well.

Hmmm. Warp Cannons. I could imagine a small wormhole opening inside a ship, swinging around and gutting it
"Captain off the port bow!"
I like http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
I think I'll make it a 1 reload, moderate to low damage weapon. Since it's a wormhole, I figure range shouldn't affect the damage, but give me a description that supports the increase with range, and I'll do it that way.

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

I did it first as a minimum range sort of thing: the wormhole can't be fully opened close to the ship, lest *your* ship get caught in it.

Phoenix-D

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Ah, good one. You can let the wormhole be more unstable & thus more destructive, but the location also becomes unstable, and threatens your ship unless you're tagetting something far away.

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

How about boarding shuttles?

Create a new ship type like a fighter (only slightly larger (40kT?) and a new smaller boarding component (10k) and a shuttlebay component for ships to launch the boarding shuttles? Than a pirate ship could launch a few shuttles to take over an enemy ship...

------------------
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Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Unfortunately, Boarding parties don't work on fighters. Unless that changes in the next patch, it won't work http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Has anyone ever tried to make Huge Spinal mount weapons? (I know there are the different standard "Mounts" based on tonnage)

I was thinking of several Hulls built around the mount.Only one mount possible on any given hull size. Weapon does HUGE amounts of damage and uses HUGE amounts of supplies. This would probably have to be a fleet ship as it would strictly be a support system for the weapon. Cargo bays full of supplies(Batteries?) and solar panels to replenish the supplies for a second shot. Possibly something like the shield regenerator that regens the weapon faster.

Star Fleet battles had a similar thing for the Romulans. I think it was called a "Mauler"

Not really a pirate weapon, but a good Anti-Piracy weapon! :-&gt; (Also what a prize if you capture her intact!)

Any thoughts?

RhineStone Cowboy

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

there are spinal mounts in devnull, and planetary core mounts in P&N. as far as i know, you cant increase supply usage on a mount, and if you could then supplies still do not effect your ability to shoot, only to move.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

fighter missiles- I have these in my mod. The Ai fighters do have to be adjusted - I can post the mod inthe mod forums if anyone is interested. let me know
Seekers in my mod move alot faster.
CSM move 11
Plasma move 12-15
and all others move 12


Name := Small Missle I
Description := Standard fighter anti-ship missile.
Pic Num := 88
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 5
Cost Minerals := 30
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 10
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Supply Amount Used := 1
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2520
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Fighters
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Seeking
Weapon Target := Ships
Weapon Damage At Rng := 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Normal
Weapon Reload Rate := 30
Weapon Display Type := Seeker
Weapon Display := 1
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := pLastorp.wav
Weapon Family := 5
Weapon Seeker Speed := 10
Weapon Seeker Dmg Res := 15

Name := Small Phased Missle I
Description := Fighter Missile with a phased polaron warhead.
Pic Num := 161
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 5
Cost Minerals := 50
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 20
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Supply Amount Used := 1
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2521
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Missile Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Tech Area Req 2 := Phased-Energy Weapons
Tech Level Req 2 := 4
Tech Area Req 3 := Fighters
Tech Level Req 3 := 2
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Seeking
Weapon Target := Ships
Weapon Damage At Rng := 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Normal Shields
Weapon Reload Rate := 30
Weapon Display Type := Seeker
Weapon Display := 1
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := pLastorp.wav
Weapon Family := 5
Weapon Seeker Speed := 10
Weapon Seeker Dmg Res := 15

Name := Small Null - Space Missile I
Description := Fighter Missile with a null - space warhead.
Pic Num := 255
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 5
Cost Minerals := 800
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 800
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Supply Amount Used := 1
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2522
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Null-Space Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Tech Area Req 2 := Missile Weapons
Tech Level Req 2 := 6
Tech Area Req 3 := Fighters
Tech Level Req 3 := 3
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Seeking
Weapon Target := Ships
Weapon Damage At Rng := 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Shields And Armor
Weapon Reload Rate := 30
Weapon Display Type := Seeker
Weapon Display := 1
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := pLastorp.wav
Weapon Family := 5
Weapon Seeker Speed := 10
Weapon Seeker Dmg Res := 15

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW THE FIGHTERS had to be change in the design creation data files. They worked out well. The fighters still use armor shields , sensors and other components per the original designs. Most AI fighters use 1 missile - although a couple AI races in my mod will put 2-3 missiles on some fighters!

The Abbidon

Name := Fighter
Design Type := Fighter
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Default Strategy := Fighter Attack
Size Minimum Tonnage := 10
Size Maximum Tonnage := 5000
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Weapon
Minimum Speed := 4
Desired Speed := 20
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 5
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 100
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 101
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 113
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 100
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 101
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 0
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Ability := Weapon
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 50
Secondary Comp Ability := Weapon
Num Misc Abilities := 3
Misc Ability 1 Name := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 3 Name := Shield Regeneration
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 800



[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 10 October 2001).]

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

For new weapons,

Is it possible to make a weapon that specifically targets the self-destruct component? Put it in the computer warfare Category I guess... a group of elite hackers remotely messing with the control features of the other ship. Heck, you could have one component that shuts down (read destroy) the self-destruct, and another that sets off the self-destruct! This would definitely decrease the number of people using the self-destruct component as defence from pirates in the mid to late game. Suddenly everyone will need to build the defence marine guys (defence parties?) to protect their ships. I think this would cause players to deeply consider their options when designing their ships... the mind games could be very fun.

And how about beaming marines across (capture from a distance weaponry). A short range direct fire weapon with the 'boarding party' effect would do (hopefully it's possible). This would differ from the psychic line of attacks in that defence marines would counter the attack. Any self-destruct mechanisms would still go off, but probably shouldn't destroy the attacking ship because the ships were never docked. The supply use would be astronomical, and the component very expensive in Radioactives. I don't know if the component would be destroyed after use (it's the marines that die after all) or should just have a firing rate of 15+ (gotta make some new red shirts for the next group of 'volunteer' marines).

Lastly, each of these weapons could be small, super high speed attack pods with small Groups of stormhackers/stormtroopers in them. To do this I propose a missle that has good to excellent damage resistance but moves slightly slower than most missles. Change the damage type to either destroy the self-destruct component(when shields are down) or attempt ship capture (when shields are down).

Just some new weapon ideas. I hope some are feasable.

-Jimbob



[This message has been edited by jimbob (edited 11 October 2001).]

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Fighter-launched seekers: Sounds good, but the damage will have to be vastly increased. Fighter's rocket pods in the normal game do almost 10x the damage.

Ship capture is an ability, not a weapon type, so we can't put it on missiles or ranged weapons. I tried a boarding component for fighters, but SE4 dosen't even bother to check for its existance on units.

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

What do you mean ship capture is only an ability and can't be used in beam weapons? If so, how do allegience subverters work? They are ranged and make ships switch loyalties. Why would it not work?

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Different ability.

Ship capture sets off SDDs, converter doesn't. Ship capture works on MCs, converter doesn't.

Phoenix-D

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

I tried higher damages with the fighter missiles, it gets a bit overwhelming since the PD only usually get to fire once since they are moving so much faster in my mod. The Fighters are firing the seekers in swarms. so 100 fighters with 1 missile each in my mod can do up to 500pts damage per volley and the shear number of fighter missiles can quickly overwhelm point defenses...

the null space missiles are particularly nasty!

If the missiles were slower - then maybe more damage would be workable.

[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 11 October 2001).]

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Phoenix and Suicide,

Poop. So much for beaming in the expendible security officers. How are abilities defined, are they all 'range zero' effects?

What about a weapon that specifically targets the SDD? I'm guessing that this would be possible. Then there would finally be a need for defence marines.

Jimbob

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

I like the idea of seekers launched by fighters and want to point some things out that I have found when playing Phoenix-D's techmod (early Versions). One has to be very careful to make them balanced. Their damage/kt/turn should probably be lower then the standard rocket pods, because they can be fired from range before the fighters can be destroyed. The Small Missile I suggested by AJC seems okay in that respect, because their damage/kt is lower and like the rocket pods they can fire only once per combat. Another thing to take into account is the tonnage, if you can fit too many of them into a fighter they will be very hard to stop, because each PDC shot will kill only one seeker (damage will not carry over to other seekers in the group). Making them too small (1kt for AJC Small Missile) will create huge seeker Groups that will be very hard to shoot down (maybe that is desired, but it can be unbalancing). Another thing is the reload, to make them a little different from the pods, perhaps a reload of 5 or 10 could be considered. Of course damage and tonnage have to be adjusted accordingly.

All those balance issues can be resolved, but one thing I have noticed with fighter missiles might be a problem. Here is part of an email that I wrote to Phoenix-D some time ago:
"... I also found an odd bug when using seeker weapons on fighters: If I didn't select all missiles to be fired in tactical combat, they would still be released, but wouldn't move because they didn't have a target. While this is not so bad, here comes the odd thing: After I have some seekers sitting in space doing nothing, all seekers fired by this or other fighter Groups would run out of fuel after moving only one space. Don't ask me why, very strange. Seeker fired by ships seem to behave normally (at least if fired by the enemy)... "

Maybe you can try and to reproduce this bug. It could be a serious problem, if the fighter missiles get too small and the AI decides not to launch all of them at once (it does that sometimes with large Groups of sats or many WPs). Humans can be notified of this bug and advised not to launch partial volleys, but the AI cannot.

Rollo

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Now for my suggestions for future Versions of P&N:
There have been many very good ideas for space monsters in this thread.
Adding a new racial trait "is a monster"/"not a monster" would work well with P&N. Give them their own really nasty tech tree. IIRC, there have been some problems with the monster planets. I tried to give facilities the self-destruct ability once, but that didn't work. Whether or not it would be possible to make AI controlled space monsters, it would still be great to make them player controlled. Either just for fun to terrorize the helpless AI races in the role of a monster in a solo game http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif, or (even better) think of a PBW game where one player plays as a monster and harasses the other players... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif. Give him some planets hidden in nebulae, the goal of the other players would be to make the galaxy monster-free. The one who destroys the main monster lair will be the winner. Other scenarios are possible with several monster races competing against each other... whatever.

Maybe it would be worth to revive this idea. I would love it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Rollo

edit:typo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 12 October 2001).]

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

My P&N suggstion: (Wot I 'ave suggested elsewhere before)

Give crew quarters boarding party abilities. That way you can take over enemy ships from the very beginning of the game, and you have a reason to design ships with a little CQ redundancy. Of course CQ boarding defence would be considerably higher than CQ boarding attack.

The only downside is that your specialised boarding ships will lose their crews when they board. Unless... You make a second CQ component available when boarding parties come into the game - one which has no boarding attack value. Then you could design specialised boarding craft with good old fashioned non-destroying crew quarters. If you made these available from the begininning though you might as well make boarding parties available...

Another suggestion (specially useful given your new approach to resupply) is to add a few more tech levels to the solar harvesting tech tree: After solar panels and solar sails, add solar sail-panels, which generate movement AND supplies. I think you'll definitely need some new supply generation options.

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Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimbob:
What about a weapon that specifically targets the SDD? I'm guessing that this would be possible. Then there would finally be a need for defence marines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since SDDs supposedly work by overloading the ship's engines, how about giving them "engine component" status so that ion weapons will affect them as well? The result would be that most captured ships will be dead in the water with their engines destroyed and most (or all) of their supplies gone, but it seems reasonable to me that if you're trying to board an enemy ship in RL one of the things you'd have to do would be to disable its engines anyway.

Re: Next Version of P&N: suggestions
 

Space monsters are an excellent idea. A few suggestions to toughen them up:

Mouth or ingestion ability of some kind: Point blank weapon, does tons of damage, would be like the monster ate another ship.

Make all components armor and make all components use the armor regen ability.

Create something life leaves for solar supply regen.

Give them compnents that boost defense (a space monster is going to have a little better responses than a ship with people at the helm)

well, just some suggestions.