Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Thought I'd start a thread were folks can share and laugh at some of the more outlandish friendly aircraft mistargeting incidents that happen in WinSPMBT.

Situation
UK & Denmark defend VS Poland, 1985

Infantry scout spotting because it had a clear veiw of tanks on a road in the target area.

Aircraft flight path does not enter or exit the target area over the spotter.

Aircraft veers 750m (15 hexes) from the target area and hits the spotter and his jeep that has not moved or fired in two turns and are in a woodline, destroying the jeep and scout.


Situation
USMC meeting engagement VS China, 1016

High tech FO spotting no line-of-sight to target area.

Aircraft flight path enters target area from behind (the enemy map side) and exits off the map side crossing over a handful of friendly infantry and APC's.

Aircraft veers 1200m (24 hexes) from target and destroys a friendly Avenger HMMWV that has not fired but did recently move. The aircraft was not a SEAD flight but a regular airstrike.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Slightly diffrent but I once hit a B-52 (Area SAM? did not think you could get them)
The map had very few routes through it & I had a Mech Company bunched up in a pass it landed straight on them still with bombload from the explosion.
One of those cases where not hitting it would have been far better.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

I once had a B-1 to drop tons of FAE directly over the midlle of my infantry heavy force, the enemy counterattacked before i could reorganize, just try to imagine 150 confused men with rounds flying over their heads with a wall of fire behind them

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Situation 1: Rhodesian advance vs. Zanla delay. Canberra bombers saturate my RLI commando with golf bombs and Frantan. I'm almost wiped our.

Situation 2. Mercenary Seabourne landing. Airforce swoops low, and sinks the ships with my tanks on them. My frightened mercs now have to deal with a forewarned enemy and have no armour.

Situation 3. British assault vs. Italian defend, Sicily 1943. The Air Farce knocks out my only tank platoon, and drop the rest of their bombs in some empty field, frightening the moles.

troopie

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Whoops thats quite impresive never managed to be that disfunctional, shame no one caught your face on vid can just imagine you after the first sank:eek: please let the next find an enemy target:doh:

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

US vs NVA,
Navy Skyraider dropped a bucketload of napalm on friendlies which had just unloaded from choppers - horrendous casualties. About 8 hexes from that targeted. This was about the only time I have ever quit a scenario in despair.:cry:

Warwick

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

8 hexes isn't much, though it is a big error(i don't usually have air/arty drifting more than 4 hexes from the target, but that may be caused by hi-tech FOs), try not to have airstrikes at least 10 hexes from your units, it might help

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Don/Andy - is there any way we can get a "blue on blue" situation where AAA/SAMs fire at their own Air Force?

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Not really - there is no blue on blue for A/tk firing either.

(I cannot really think of any computer wargames with friendly fire at all, other than being trapped in an HE explosion etc )

Andy

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Could be amusing if had freindly fire but probably need to be country or experince rated. Buy the likes of conscripts less because they are more likely to fire at anything.
To many variables as well happen more if both have air less if yours the only one around. Troops more at range & close up due to jerk reaction.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

I'd say experience, country really doesn't matter.
As I understand "experience" is the primary rating of how well trained the troops are, that's why special forces/ranger/guards type units generally get a bonus to their experience and morale in the formations tab.
True, it ALSO represents the "been there, done that" of actual combat experience, but the "national baseline" represents training.
And of course less well trained troops WILL make more mistakes.

On a side note...
In my USMC OOB revision I added a bonus to the experience rating of the aircraft so they average around 85 rather then 80.
Makes a HUGE difference in the number of "friendly fire" incidents. I can actually reliably call in airstrikes using the "real" Marine Corps doctrine - "1 yard per pound" and not blow myself off the map most of the time. Still get friendly fire, but probably less then half as often.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

In the 1st or 2nd winter exercise vs warsaw pact something like 30% of US casulties were Blue on Blue the Russians could have just gone home & left them to it. Caused to a large degree by poor map reading getting lost & coming back on own lines. Hence the term Blue on Blue or Blue Fire as NATO is blue Warsaw Orange
Source not verified

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Sounds reasonable.
When was this excercise tho?
The US military, particularly the Army was really gutted immediately after WWII. Training sucked, gear sucked, the mid-level officer corps sucked...that's why they had so much trouble when Korea broke out.

Again, I submit it's a matter of training not a "national" thing.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Can't remember read long time back possibly late 70s took a while after WW2 for them to play wargames. Think the US did learn from this they had basicly forgot what they had learnt previously. Took a lot out of Nam to from books read & adopted training based on some European (Israeli?) nations.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

<SNIP>.
Perhaps you could explain the obvious conflict in these two statements ? In one paragraph you say experience " really doesn't matter" and in the next you say increasing in slightly "Makes a HUGE difference"

It either doesn't or it does ( and it does )

Don

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

I think he meant that country doesn't matter, but experience does.

Playing as Greece most of the time I don't have many friendly fire incidents. I would say about 1 bombing run in every 10 battles, if that.
I am careful to choose planes depending on the weather. Also, don't place target hex too close to your own troops. I usualy have a min of 20 hexes.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

She, not "he"

Don

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

They are all the same to me.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Correct. I misread it

Don


NOTE-------------->>>>>>>I noticed too late I had hit the edit button instead of "quote" and that is why this posted ended up this way

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

No problem Don.
Feel free to walk on me any time :)

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Drifted off topic but this game does allow freindly fire more than most.
Infantry think only hit own with area weapons or on occasion if firring at enemy in same hex as own troops, read things getting a bit desperate. Not Blue fire just caught in
Planes obviosly but can be avoided by not overflying your troops & keeping targets a sensible distance from.
RPGs I have missed & hit my own vehicle.
Armour generally no but any shot can miss & land on your troops causing suppresion

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Other then same and adjacent hex stuff I've never had much problem with direct fire blue-on-blue. Don't recall ever blowing up my own vehicles with ATGM's etc.
I tend to find that "average" (read that as experience 60 to 80) aircraft often seem more dangerous to me then my opponent tho.
I still find it very "amuseing" when aircraft fire a maverick, miss the vehicle targeted, and a tank in an adjacent hex gets destroyed tho.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

I just finished the first scenario (marines holding a hill against a north korean attack) and my planes found a lot of joy in shooting cannon rounds at my Pershings on hte hill, rather than the communist mortar positions way off on the other side.

Playing through hte second scenario, I restarted, after my american "allies" happily napalmed an entire platoon of mine, though at least that was only a drift of 5 hexes from its target.
They did shoot a few bullets at the north koreans as well, just for good measure.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

runequester, I hope the planes you sent to attack the mortars were not carrying AGMs and that you sent the planes from a side of the map that wasn't the back side of your army.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

..........or through smoke. I'm familiar with the scenario in question because when it first came out we had comments like this and I ran the scenario and Andy ran the scenario and like someone else mentioned on one of these forums recently we wondered if we were playing the same game.

I doubt there is a save game of the turn the air strikes were plotted and when they were carried out but I'm betting they would explain a lot. It IS possible to carry out air attacks without ridiculous amounts of blue on blue. Most of the stories people tell like this I've NEVER encountered in all the years I've played and developed these games. I am NOT saying strange things never happen but reading this thread anyone would think this is SOP

I can see we need to explain air attack procedure a bit better in the game guide. ( and hope people read it....)





Don

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Im sure it was a one in a billion thing :)

In the original SP, I once lost a T34 to a stray 81mm mortar shell. Not even a barrage of the things either. Just a single mortar, firing a single shell.

Never seen anything like it since, and that was years ago. I joked that it must have fallen down the hatch or something. i just attract weird luck.


What was maddening about that Korea scenario was that it seemed whenever the planes did shoot up the enemy, they'd insist on only targeting the exact hex they were aimed at, even if that only held 2 infantry guys, with a T34 within a hex or two because it had moved. But when they decided to strafe my guys instead, they'd meticulously pick out the best targets :)
Maybe they were communist sympathizers.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

I've tended to notice that myself.
When you get a blue-on-blue the seem to have an uncanny ability to pick the worst place/unit for the player to hit, whereas when they do hit the opposition they'll often pick the least valuable target in the area.

Humm....
Could it be all pilots have been secretly subverted by commies?

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

:rolleyes:

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

but what when it happens to soviet airstrikes?

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

You know the old adage "damn them flyboys"
But they only hit what you grunts tell them to.
If the target moves and grunts lost sight or friendlies move into or close to the target zone,
and forget to call off or change the orders.
Then who's fault is it really:rolleyes:

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Fair point gila if its a fast moving target you do not have eyeballs on it or its a short attack run (vision restricted)calling in a strike with your forces nearby is asking for trouble. If he cant find the target will do his best to fire at something & that could be you especially if you have vehicles that moved that go nearby.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Check the first post in this thread.

My observer (a scout not a "real" FO) had a clear line-of-sight down a road at the target area and my aircraft veered 15 hexes from the target hex and hit my observer.

I have no clue how the probability of a mis-targeted airstrike is calculated, and that instance was a VERY non-typical mis-target, but somewhere in the zillions of random calculations the possibility of such an absurd result exists. While I was, of course, less then happy with it at the time that sort of one-in-a-million result is one of the things that keeps WinSPMBT interesting.

While you can accurately predict the AI will do a lemming charge you can't always be sure where, when, or with what.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

It is those one offs that you remember & like you say it should be that way. Maybe your scout gave his co ords by mistake:)
Its like the guy that just has to hit to live & misses with a 97% shot or the BRDM-2 I hit with an ATGM & 3 tank rounds causing it to retreat, it was still mobile!!!! Trialing some new fangled anti HEAT armour I feel

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Are you using airstrikes like bombers?
You said target area,did you have a target? or just a area that you wanted the airstrike to attack?

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Keep on mind this what close air ground support will see from high above.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

To ALL,
Speaking of air strikes you should pick the air entry and exit zone just like an air drop or observation mission...right? Also how can you tell which aircraft(besides helos) have stand off attack capability? I don't use planes much just inquiring......:smirk:

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

It's different for each.
SAC bombers will come in on the entry line and will try to bomb along in a "straight line" the sector to the orders they were given.
It's a wide swath of accuracy but you can be sure any units in or close to the bomb zone will be effected.

Close ground air support will attack anything they see in their vector, radar can't tell a friendly from a tango on the ground.
So bad calls arn't their fault.
One thing about this game some may forget.
The Army "Does not" command the Air Force or the Navy.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Same as any unit look at the weapon loadout it carries

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

I said "target area" because the target was tanks moving up a road. Given the delay between when the airstrike was requested and it arrived I took a calculated guess where along the road the tanks would be when the airstrike arrived.
While there was no tank in the designated target hex (as I recall) there was a full company within 5-10 hexes of it.

Personally I ALWAYS pick entry/exit zones for aircraft. A bit of care here can save you a lot of anguish with mistargeting.

And as imp said, look at the weapon loadouts to see what sort of ordinence aircraft carry.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Interesting thread, and funny that I find it now,
Not really a mishap, but in my currently running Soviet vs WestGermany 1989 game I had a SU-24 dropping its KAB-1500L on a Marder. Of course it missed, (with 80% accuracy), but I wasn't so angry as 2 Fuchs and another Marder blew up from the Blast....

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Then you are using airstrikes like bombers.

If you sighted a target then place the marker on it.
No need to calculate (airstrike) where the target will move.
They should be looking for the primary target they were called upon to hit.

Bombers are a different animal they just bomb a target zone like Atry.

I could be mistaken maybe a mod will chime in this to make it clearer

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Would say you are bombers target the hex or at least within 2 hexes of it paying no attention to available targets.
Others search for targets around where they are called in when they turn up, placing the strike on a tank has no relevance it does not mark that as a target so guessing where they are going & calling the strike there is the way to do it just like arty.

So call in where expect targets to be & give a decent attack run to improve chances of finding & hitting a good target. By that I mean appearing through smoke with enemy a couple of 100m away gives little time to find or attack & it may well veer off & attack something else it has seen possibly you. The old Catch 22 applies here you want your arty to fire first to suppress AAA but otherwise you want planes to go first so not finding targets in any dust thats kicked up.<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

When you come down to it all aircraft are is airborne artillery.

Perhaps (sometimes) more accurate, perhaps (sometimes) more destructive...but still really nothing more then artillery.

As I've said in other threads, given the point cost/damage done ratio I think aircraft are far to expensive in WinSPMBT...but they're fun to play with !

Given cost/benefit ratio I personally find helo's to be far more effective vs vehicles. Tho I'll freely admit a nice bomb/napalm run will mess up infanty far more effectively then anything else in the game.

And unless you're targeting a fixed target (fortification, most AI artillery, etc.) you target an area with aircraft and let it pick it's target because its impossible select a specific target for an airstrike.

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

I've done airstrikes both ways and found if you pinpoint a target then even if it moves few hexs it will find it.
But that maybe the target didn't move or moved slowly.

Most airstrikes come in 3 turns or less opposed to 6 or more for bombers.

Tried second guessing where it "target" will move and got disaster.

just my 2 cents worth:D

Re: Air Farce Follies - Friendly Fire Isn't
 

Dust and smoke will of course obscure the targets you want to hit
That's when you re-adjust or just call the strike off right?

No need for friendly causalties.

You are callin in the shots of course;)