Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

I know this is a rock/paper/scissors kind of game so I am sure there is a counter to Marble Oracles.

Any ideas? I am playing with MA Ermor (research levels currently at around 5-6) so if those ideas can be applied by MA Ermor, even better.

The Marble Oracles that I am dealing with in particular, additionally carry boots of behemoth and protection bracers etc.

The thing is that they seem to be all around perfect units:
80+ HP, 22+ prot, 50 moral, 16 base magic resistance (!!! with a few buffs or a good bless this can easily be increased to almost 20!!!), 22 str... the only weakness seem to be a relatively low attack at 12 but with the said behemoth boots or a decent weapon the problem is solved. On top of it they are sacred units benefiting from bless etc etc

They are mindless, lifeless, stone being and magic. I know there are some spells to hurt just magic beings but they do not seem to hurt much... at least at levels 5-6 of research which is where we are + or - at the moment.

I was planning to use my Banes (overall good protection, defense and atack) against them but not sure now as they might get just trampled by the boots?

any other weakness you guys may know of I can exploit? Would paralyze work (although with those 16+ magic resistance levels not sure how productive...)

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

They are magic beings and constructs, so elf bane axes, smashers etc are your friends here - equip some counter-thugs. (Bane lords, for example)
MR 16 is not that great; set up a (reverse) communion and spam control and opposition. In CBM control and opposition are also easier to cast/research, making contstructs much more vulnerable to mind-affecting astral spells than undead/demon thugs (which is ridiculous, but that's another story).
As a desperate measure, make some mr-penetrating items (spell focus, eye of the void), put these on your h3 priests (I believe MA Ermor has them) and just spam smite. Maybe set up a communion beforehand. I am not sure just how effective that may be, but if you send a BIG communion with penetrating trinkets, you have a chance to stop these Oracles. After all, they are rather expensive.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Wouldnt Bane Lords also get trampled by the boots of behemoths these opracles are carrying?

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

As Ermor, you want to spam Nether Bolts or Nether Darts at them until they are Feebleminded. This reduces MR by 5. It's evil, and it works, and I hate it. :p Once that is accomplished, destroy at will with your favorite anti-construct spells.

If the Nether Bolt doesn't Feeblemind like the Darts (I can't recall for sure, never use it!), then some Black Bows can do the job just the same, and are cheap to produce.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Which ones are the anti-construct spells? I read above "control" and "opposition"?

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Shatter, E3 Alt 5, is construct-only.


Could the marble oracle kill a tough size 6 unit, such as a Behemoth?

Casting magic-resistance-negates spells doesn't work against high-mr units every time, but the trick is using spells that HURT when they get through, and casting them until that happens. Soul Slay only has to get through once...

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Would Paralyze work against Marble Oracles? or is just for living units or units with a mind?

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Trampling is a lousy attack. I think it has only attack 10. So high defense helps a lot. Also luck and eternalness. Give your bane a good shield to boost his defense (gold shield - 9 parry, shield of the accursed - 11 parry) and couple him with an astral mage to cast luck and body ethereal on him. Also give him ring of regen to heal those 1hp damage hits he'll get from trampling.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

If anyone's interested in the workings of trample, read manual page 57. I think at least the damage-dealing parts of it are true. I wasn't quite sure of the details myself, I had to check it out after reading Psycho's post.

If the Marble Oracles don't start with the blindness tag, they need their eye to see. Take that away, and they're suddenly att0 def0.
Vision's Foe, the magical arbalest, removes one eye when it hits. Give it to a commander with high precision, preferably with N1 so he can cast Eagle Eyes. Script this commander to Fire Large.

After you manage to blind the Oracle, stop the trampling with few size 6 critters.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Sadly, it won't work because of mindless.
But you could use Stellar Cascades & Ghost Grip to great effect.

Turns out you'll need to scratch stellar cascades at least, went into a test-game to try it and it didn't work. I know it works against mindless Undead however since earlier games, it must be an effect of their lifeless tag.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Trampling ignores shield parry, it only works against "real" defense. So, ironically, a Main-Gauche of Parrying is better against trampling than a Shield of Gleaming Gold is. I think a Vine Shield + Elf Bane or Crusherknack is probably your best bet for a thug, though. Can MA Ermor forge Vine Shields? Trampling is a pretty poor attack against a thug anyway so you should survive long enough to get some good licks in.

Otherwise, yeah, single-target spells are a good option. Does MA Ermor still have Augur Elders? If so, they can also spam Incinerate at Alt 5. I can't remember what else is available, except obviously Disintegrate at Alt 8. With all your death mages, Disintegrate should be pretty awesome, although the range is short.

-Max

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

I'm assuming Drain Life doesn't work on lifeless targets?

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Banefire (53+ ap damage) is ea ermors traditional answer to SC's.

I haven't played MA ermor in awhile...

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

MA Ermor is Death and Astral and some randoms. No Augurs.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Arghh, no shield? then it is a tough one.

As far as I remember trampling works like this:

Check for Defense - (fatigue / 10) against 10
If failed then damage is 8 + 2 x trampler size

Quick calcs with a Bane Lord: HP 42, Base prot 21, Defense 13 (thanks to a Def +3 from the default 2 handed bane blade, otherwise 10) no shield. By the way would the +3 Def from the Bane Blade be used against trample, or just the base 10?

If we give him an elf bane (one handed, Def 0) then base defense goes down to 10 !!! oupss. And suddenly you have only around 46 % chances to avoid the trample. Boots of behemoth give you size 6 so dammage would be 8 + 6 x 2 = 20 - protection / 2 (piercing) = 10 or thereabouts. With 42 HP you can only withstand around 4-5 trample hits and that is assuming the /bane Lord is in immaculate condition before reaching the marble oracle. So I presume getting that Bane Lord ethereal or lucky is paramount.

The marble oracle in the other hand has around 80-90 HP... Does anyone know how's the dammage calculated for an Elf Bane?

Would A Vine Shield make any difference to Defense?

Do boots of quickness help with Defense?

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

FYI, Boots of the Behemoth do NOT change your size to six, they simply give the wearer the trample attack on anyone smaller. BE and Luck would definitely help, as would using any of your own size 6 units. I'm not sure how useful it would be to try and counter with one size 6 unit to occupy it and one or two smaller ones to do the damage. What would be the priority of the oracle?

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Marble oracles are only size 4, so a bane lord would do just fine.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Ah I think i got it from the database. Elf Bane has a "Slay Magic" effect which means that for every successfull hit the magic victim will need to have a successfull mr roll or suffer 999 damage.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Units first attack whatever is directly in front of them, then what is above them, and then what is below them. Or at least that is what I have observed. If you paired a large flying unit with one or two thugs geared to kill the oracle, you should be able to convince the oracle not to attack your thugs unless your flying unit gets killed.

Alternatively, you could give a commander a cat charm, bracers of protection, a main gauche and elf bane/smasher/dusk dagger. If you really don't care about the expense add in chainmail of displacement and switch out the bracers for a ring of regeneration. Or go for thunder bows, eyes of aiming and boots of giant strength. One of the above should work.


Actually banelords have pretty decent base defense skill (14), it's just they're wearing pretty heavy armor. If you could get one chainmail of displacement and a 0 def hat, it would be at 20 defense. That's not too shabby.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Crusherknack works very well.

Edit: I meant Smasher, which has Crusherknack as a secondary effect IIRC.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

as I recall, elfbane had a bug whereby the normal attack did not occur against magic beings. I'd go with a smasher, or a moonblade. massed nether darts would also be fun.

as they are size 4, any size 4 or above unit will be immune to their trampling, and they will just stay in place trying to punch your large meatshield unit.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

It isn´t a magic being IIRC.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Well, I did two tests. On one side a marble oracle with behemoth boots and braces of protection and 20 pd (EA Ulm pd). On the other side a bane lord and a lizard shaman. Lizard shaman scripted to: luck, body ethereal, retreat.

In the first bane lord had a smasher, a gold shield and a ring of regen. In the second I switched the gold shield for a chain of displ. Both times the oracle couldn't scratch the bane lord except with smites from holy avenger. Bane lord easily won both times. He was at 40-42 hit points all the time, except for one lucky smite that did him 16 damage. No fear of him getting killed.

Of course with boots of quickness he would be even more effective. If you can afford it, slap them and an AMA on him as well. But I don't think it's needed against the opposition you described.

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

Thanks for all the suggestions... yes it seems the marble oracles are not as fearsome as I thought... tends to happen with newbies as me. We overreact to things... as anecdotal, on my first game I overreacted to encountering some hydras produced early on by a veteran player playing as Pythum and therefore decided to rush him, also as Ermor... I have just eliminated the veteran player under 35 turns! had to apologize at the end!

but... as some shrewed businessman said sometime ago... only the paranoids survive!

Re: Counter against Agartha's Marble Oracles?
 

The marble oracles can be mighty fearsome if your opponent has a strong bloodstone economy and/or deep well. They are relatively cheap and Agartha can produce them en masse if played right. You can counter 1 but can you counter 15 with mage support and other statues as bodyguards? Behemoth boots seems like a bad choice of equipment though.