Seeking Arrow Test (Updated 1st June 2009 to V1.1 with Death Bless tests)
 

For those interested, here are the results of some tests I ran regarding what items or effects help protect against the 'Seeking Arrow' spell.

The test involved sending seven lots of 10 x 'Seeking Arrow' spells against seven lots of 10 Indy Scouts, where the Scouts were equipped with nothing for the control (bare), shields (Small + Tower), Lucky Pendant, Robe of Missile Protection. I also tested for the increased chance of afflictions from a Death Bless, testing D6 (200%) and D10 (400% and Death Weapons). The Death Bless tests were carried out against bare Scouts.

This test was repeated 30 times, giving the following results.

(I would like to show the complete result table here, but there doesn't appear to be any simple, and more importantly, visually pleasing way to show a table on the forum. So I will instead direct you to the zip file attached, which includes the test game I used, and the full results table [MSExcel File])

The end results show that out of 300 'Seeking Arrows' cast at....

300 Bare Scouts --- 151 died, 45 received afflictions.
300 Scouts equipped with a Small Shield (Parry 4) --- 150 died, 39 received afflictions.
300 Scouts equipped with a Tower Shield (Parry 8) --- 145 died, 57 received afflictions.
300 Scouts equipped with a Lucky Pendant --- 67 died, 25 received afflictions.
300 Scouts equipped with Robe of Missile Protection --- 14 died, 9 received afflictions.
300 Bare Scouts, caster had 200% affliction chance --- 137 died, 39 received afflictions.
300 Bare Scouts, caster had 400% affliction chance and death weapons --- 140 died, 43 received afflictions

All the Scouts were set to 'Defend'.
*** Note *** Units with 'Hide' or 'Sneak' orders can not be targetted with 'Seeking Arrow'.

Preliminary Conclusions.
- Out of those tested, only the 'Luck' or 'Air Shield' effect provided any protection against the 'Seeking Arrow' spell.
- A shield makes no difference.
- The Death Bless does not cause any extra afflictions.

When I get chance I will run further tests on the following.
- Etherealness
- Flaming Weapons from a Fire Bless.
- Regeneration (does it help avoid afflictions?)
- Cursed
- Twist Fate

Please feel free to comment, and if anyone knows of any other effects or variables they think might help for or against the success of 'Seeking Arrow', then please post in the thread and I'll add it to the list for the next test run.

Thank You for Reading.

---------------------------------

Updated 1st June 2009 to V.1.1

I have now tested the Death Bless more thoroughly with the 'Seeking Arrow' spell, and I can only conclude that it has no effect on the spell with regards having an increased chance of causing afflictions.

For the test I used Bane Lords, and 'Seeking Arrow' casters wearing a shroud which bestowed the Death Bless upon them. I tested the D4 bless, and the D10 bless.

For one of the test runs I also sent the shroud wearers into battle the turn before casting the 'Seeking Arrow' spell, as I heard there was the possibility that the effects of the bless gained from the shroud does not 'stick' unless the unit has been in an actual battle while wearing it.

I also tested the range of damage that was inflicted in order to try and establish the actual damage roll that takes place during the spell.

Results.

'Seeking Arrow' damage mechanics.

Over the course of 400 tests, the average damage observed was 8.2, which corresponds nicely to the indicated damage of the spell, which is 8. The range of damage was between 0 - 24. This seems to indicate that there is a bonus roll added to the damage from the spell, but also an equal resistance roll to reduce/negate the damage.

It has been suggested that the 'Seeking Arrow' spell does 8 + DRN ( - DRN) points of damage. I am now pretty convinced that this is true. Although I was not able to determine if re-rolls for 6's are unlimited or not.


The Death Bless

After 100 tests in each category, the following number of afflictions were observed

No Death Bless - 18
D4 Bless - 19
D10 Bless - 21
D10 Bless (afterbattle) - 16

In the final 100 tests, the shroud wearers were engaged in a battle the turn before they cast the 'Seeking Arrow' spells. All this was done to ensure as well as possible that there was no problem with the bless effects from the shroud in 'sticking' to the unit.

The affliction mechanics from the manual states that the chance of an affliction occurring is the % HP lost in the attack multiplied by any extra affliction chance, such as the one caused by the Death Bless.

A Bane Lord has 42 HP, and a D4 bless increases the affliction chance by 100%. Now if my understanding of the mechanics are correct, in theory if the Bane Lord is hit for 21 HP (50% chance of an affliction occurring) or more from a D4 blessed unit, there should be a 100% chance of an affliction occurring (50% increased by 100% is 100%). During the D4 test, there was one incidence of 21 HP of damage occurring, but no affliction was seen.

A D10 bless has a 400% chance of causing an affliction, so in theory if a Bane Lord is hit for 9 HP (approx >20% chance of an affliction occurring) or more from a D10 blessed unit, there should be a 100% chance of an affliction occurring. Here is the maths I'm basing this on in case anyone thinks 20% increased by 400% is only 80%.

20% increased by 100% is 40% - D4 bless
20% increased by 200% is 60% - D6 bless
20% increased by 300% is 80% - D8 bless
20% increased by 400% is 100% - D10 bless

So >20% increased by 400% is >100%. During both the D10 tests, there was 63 occurrences of 9 or more HP of damage occurring, but no affliction seen.

Conclusions.

-The damage roll/mechanic for the 'Seeking Arrow' spell is 8 + DRN ( - DRN) *** Note the defender roll is minus all the damage, and not just the extra damage. As it is possible for the defender to negate all the damage with a high enough roll.***

- The Death Bless has no effect when it comes to causing afflictions with the 'Seeking Arrow' spell.

I still have to run tests on other possible defences like etherealness, twist fate, regen etc. But I think I have tested all I can for the Death Bless, and have not once witnessed it having even the slightest effect with regards causing afflictions. (unless someone can suggest another way to test it).

The games used for these tests can be downloaded below.

'Thank You' to anyone who reads this and anyone who offers feedback.

(Note, will tidy this post up next chance I get.)

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Wonderful tests, thanks!
There's no need to test flaming weapons bless because they apply (or at least should) only to melee attacks.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Also, the seeking arrow is supposed to be magical, so a etheral unit should be the same as a bare unit.

Its still a good idea to test flaming weapons and etheral thou, just to check if the dominions mechanics are working as they should be. Its only through such tests we find out they are not.

On your above tests, everything worked as expected, except for me the affliction tests, I thought ritual spells that do damage cast by a blessed mage who has increased affliction chance would inflict more afflictons. But apparently not.

You could additionally test shield of valour, silver hauberk, amulet of missile protection and shroud of the battle saint with A10 air bless. All are supposed to give 80% air shield.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Wouldn't the mage need to be carrying the shroud of the saint for the death bless to work on seeking arrow?

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Yes. I assumed he would be.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

My curiosity with the flaming weapons is that I'm thinking they won't make any difference, but what happens if the target unit has fire immunity? Does that cancel out the arrow all together? It shouldn't, but this is Dominions, so who knows!

Yes I was very surprised by this as well. I was expecting any survivors to have multiple afflictions, but that theory just didn't pan out in testing. I'm really interested in running Death Bless tests on other rituals now, just to see if it's limited to 'Seeking Arrow' or not. It would certainly be another kick in the teeth for the Death Bless if in actual fact it doesn't work with rituals.

Check the test game. All mages were fully shrouded up :)

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

One of the problems with calculating afflictions from firing multiple arrows at a single province is the chance that the arrows will hit a survivor - where one arrow isn't guaranteed to kill a scout two are extremely likely to kill one. Killing power for two arrows fired against two scouts in one province is greater than the killing power of two arrows against scouts in two different provinces.

Those who survive (the afflicted) aren't likely to survive two, you regain hp when all arrows have been resolved. Though thinking about it, the effect would probably not be very significant on the results ;)

From what I recall someone said that seeking arrows deal 8 AN Damage. That is: 8 damage + DRN - DRN per arrow.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming :)

Yes, there is the problem that a lot of the scouts probably died from getting hit with two arrows. I didn't check every message every turn (2100 messages :eek:) but I did check enough to notice that a single successful 'Seeking Arrow' does 8 damage + 'A Bit More'. And at the moment 'A Bit More' could certainly be a single DRN roll (I also read this, so assumed it for my tests until I could prove differently). I chose scouts mainly because 'Seeking Arrow' is usually spammed against human type mages, with 10HP being the average.

Given time (and patience!) I'm looking to test more accurately with single castings against a single target (to avoid a double strike), and to test the Death Bless again against high HP targets. Since maybe the extra afflictions are getting added, but it's not showing in the results properly because the units are dying.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Very odd that in both "Death Bless" cases not only did fewer scouts get afflictions, but fewer died as well.

Unless the difference isn't statistically significant? Looks like it should be, but that's just a guess.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Great stuff! If you want to give the Afflictions a more thorough test, I'd recommend using a larger target, like Starspawns, or Pans, perhaps give them all 10 Prot through a mod so standardize the damage.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Why give 10 prot against an AN arrow? Am I missing something?

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

All seeking arrow damage is armour negating. So protection 0 is no different from protection 30.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Perhaps he wants hard proof that it really is AN? *shrug*

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Good stuff, Odd that Towershields make no difference as well. Ive wondered if they made any difference with something like Armageddon. If they dont with Seeking Arrow they may not with Armageddon either Although I suppose the difference could be that Seeking Arrows are supposed to be AN and thus I guess with that being the case it makes sense that the shields wouldnt stop them.. *Shrug*

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Haha, sorry about that, was a bit distracted and got it in my head they are AP, while I was typing. :p

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Calahan:

You should get some high HP units to test death bless. You are probably putting that units in .map file anyway, so it will be fast. I think that ethereality would help, but you should check it. And remember - getting twist fate to stick from shroud can be tricky. At least getting the twist fate icon on the unit. You may have to put that unis to the battle first or at least wait one turn before casting arrows.

I remember doing Armageddon tests, increased protection was the best thing to get in that case.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Hmm. That's... enlightening. I've had 'good results' with the death / shroud / arrows combo before, but that's entirely anecdotal, given that my definition of 'good results' here involved 'spending a heap of gems on arrows and encountering afflicted commanders later'.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

I agree affliction should be tested with a higher HP unit: the affliction chance is already so high you wouldn't see much change. It would be easiest to see an affliction chance with probability around 50%, although a significant number will be killed by second arrows, so maybe go for a unit with about 20-30HP.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

I think the death bless afflictions have already been confirmed with other overland spells, so probably no need to test it again.

Also Zeldor, seeking arrow is AN, so armour is useless.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

What surprised me most about the Death Bless was that out of the units that were tagged as 'Survived+Wounded', almost all of the time they only had one wound. This was consistent across all the tests.

Not once did any survivor have multiple wounds directly from the 'Seeking Arrow' attack. The only time I did see more than one wound, and accounts for a very small percentage (about 1 in 50), was when a unit got diseased through the attack, and (I'm guessing) picked up a second wound through the normal result of being diseased (which happens after the magic phase). I never once saw a unit with two wounds without 'Diseased' being one of them. And only once did this occur with one of the Death Bless tests. (since I was looking out for more than one wound, and always checked the details if the icon had more than one red heart)

I will be running some more tests with the Death Bless against higher HP units when I get chance (maybe the weekend). But my current predictions are that because the Death Bless made no difference to the 82 Scouts in the 'Survived+Wounded v Death Bless' category, I'd be surprised if all 82 examples were anomalous. If the Death Bless worked with 'Seeking Arrow', then to me at least, some should have had multiple afflictions (and not brought about via disease).

Only further testing will prove things either way.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

That's just probability.

The chance of suffering an affliction relates to the amount of damage the unit suffered. Thus the units most likely to be afflicted from a first arrow will have the fewest remaining HP, and thus stand the least chance of surviving a second arrow, and if they do survive the second arrow, will have taken such little damage there is a very low chance of taking an affliction from it.

If you'll pardon me for extreme geekiness, but...

The optimal chance of seeing two afflictions from one 10HP target will be when it takes 4 or 5 damage from the first arrow. Let's say 5 HP damage: 50% will be afflicted. The second arrow needs to do 1-4 damage to get a second affliction (any more damage kills), which will occur in (estimated) around 10-15% of cases. These 1-4 damage hits then have 10-40% of inflicting another affliction (leaning towards the 40%). Without going through exactly and taking an overestimate, 50% x 15% x 40% is 3%.

Now factor in how many take 5 damage from the first arrow, you're probably looking at something like 0.2-0.3% of the total trial n value having two afflictions. Expand to include everyone who took damage off and survived two arrows (i.e. the same principles for 1-8HP from the first arrow), the chance of two afflictions is probably <1%. Then also consider how many of your n=300 per trial will not have been hit by 2 arrows anyway: the majority either not hit or hit by just one (killed or otherwise).

Consequently, dual afflicted scouts should be expected to be incredibly rare in this experiment.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Maybe you need to wait one turn before putting shroud on the caster before death bless sticks, there are some problems with bless from shrouds. And try a volley of arrows against tartarian. 3-5 arrows should do enough afflictions, if it works.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

If you'd want to test the afflictions only you could mod the Seeking Arrow Spell to do say 50 damage and test it on 100 hp units.

That way you'd have 50% affliction chance without Death Bless and only a little risk of killing the units.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

I've tested it with Flames From the Sky and Flame Bolts before (or whatever those two rituals are called) on Jotun Hirdmen, and in that case the affliction rate went up something like 100% for a 350% Death bless. I'm interested to see what results you get in your test.

-Max

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Max,
Jotuns are susceptible to fire - did you test no death bless vs with death bless? Or just look at the rate of affliction?

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

I tested death bless (using either my prophet or a shroud, I think a prophet) and no death bless. I don't remember the exact figures, but it was less than +350% boost and more than 0%. I believe affliction rate approximately doubled. The post should be somewhere in the forum archives for 2007, around the time we first discovered that the affliction chance affects spells at all. (I remember KO being surprised.)

I'm interested to see if Calahan gets the same results when he tests. It isn't science unless it's repeatable.

-Max

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Will death bless allow more than 1 affliction per hit? If not it makes sense that it wouldn't raise the chances as much as advertised since the multiplier would stop at 100%. So if you do 5 damage to an 10 HP unit that's a 50% chance of an affliction, the most the D bless could do at that point is doubling it (+100%) which would put it up to a 100% affliction chance, any additional chance would be wasted. (And of course any testing for this should not include the D9 bless, since I assume that would allow a second affliction due to being 2 different damage checks.)

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

yeah the +400% affliction is amusing when you combine it with that spell Blood spell that does 1AN to the whole battlefield.
Or roughly 40% chance of an affliction... to a normal human.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

That's exactly why it needs to be tested with high HP targets. The first arrow seems to have an unnaturally high chance of causing a Chest Wound, so the real test of affliction rate will come in getting afflictions from successive hits in the same turn.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Thanks for the views and ideas everyone. It is certainly all appreciated.

I hope to find some time today to sort out the Death Bless part of this test, since that seems to be the main uncertainty at hand.

Thank you very much for your input Agema, and I've never thought geekiness needed to be excused :) It's all good in my books.

I think there are a few key mechanics in this test which are not 100% known (at least not to my knowledge)

1)What is the exact damage from the 'Seeking Arrow' spell? Is it.....
a) 1-8
b) 1-8 + DRN
c) 8
d) 8 + DRN

I'm assuming it's probably b) but may well be d), but maybe that's the wrong assumption.

2)If the target survives a 'Seeking Arrow' attack, does it have a separate, and independent chance of receiving an affliction linked to the spell itself? And if so, does it follow the usual affliction mechanics (manual page 81) or does it not matter if you have 10, 100, or 1000 HP?

3)Is it possible for a single 'Seeking Arrow' to cause more than one affliction?

I must confess to not having that much experience of using or receiving 'Seeking Arrow' spam, so some of the above may be unknown to me, but common knowledge to others. But hope to do tests that will at least attempt to clear-up some of the above (if just for my own curiosity).

Not even sure why I'm picking on the 'Seeking Arrow' spell. Since there are probably dozens of spells that need testing.

Thanks for your views Micah. I feel it's always appreciated by the community when one of the very top players shares their thoughts on a subject. So thank you for that.

Yes, whether or not a single 'Seeking Arrow' can cause more than one affliction with a Death Bless is a key point and needs to be tested for. I will also test to see if the D9/D10 bless causes more than one affliction. Since it's obvious that if the tests show that a D4-D8 bless can only cause one affliction, but a D9/D10 can cause 2+, then your assumption that there are two separate attacks, and two damage checks taking place, should be correct.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

1) d, more or less. I think it's probably 8 damage +drn... -drn rolled by the defender. It would also be -armour, except it's AN damage.

2) The spell has a good chance of causing a chest wound as an affliction, although you'd need to ask lch or someone how that mechanism works.

3) Your evidence so far would suggest not.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Supposedly 8 + DRN - DRN, if AN works like an attack against 0 protection

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

I was under the impression that dmg vs protection checks were not opposed rolls (meaning that it was always Damage+DRN-Prot with no -DRN).

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Not at all, or well, I don't think the manual is lying.

Case in point: I just saw an angel of fury deal 21 damage on an attack with a gate cleaver.

An impossible result, the gate cleaver alone has 29 damage, if nothing subtracts from the damage roll.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

You won't get an extra affliction coming from the D9 bless, since the extra 2AN attack only applies to melee weapons.

And yes, damage is 8 + DRN - DRN.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

To clarify: Internally, damage in Dom3 is always linked to an element, or to a magic path if you want. Almost all mundane weapons and most items have the type earth. Only Earth-based damage seems to get the death bless. That's why Blade Wind supposedly deals afflictions, but Seeking Arrow, which is Air-based, does not.

Yes, damage can be reduced to zero from the negative DRN roll. I've seen it happen a lot.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

This is really interesting! Are mundane missile weapons Earth or Air, then?

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

So "air" damage is different to shock damage I guess. Is the element "e.g. shock" a separate field to the magic path?

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

I'd thought there was evidence that the affliction part of the Death bless worked with any battle magic and with rituals? Are you saying it only works with Earth spells? Are there any Earth based ritual attack spells?
Or are you saying the D9 bless does work with Earth spells?

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

I'm not too sure, but I think that something being air damage always means that it's AN. Might be, at least. I haven't looked that much into it yet, though. Weapons are not very high on my list.

Endo, I think almost all weapons are earth based. Those that just deal "normal" damage are, at least. Normal means Earth.

And I really haven't looked into this enough to make any definitive claims. I just see that damage is always getting a magic path associated to it, as I had a little look into it regarding Armageddon.

It is my impression that somebody tested this in the past and could only verify afflictions for Earth based spells like Blade Wind. I think I've seen somebody report from testgames on that, but I didn't check. I may as well be talking nonsense.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

Okay, I've had a quick look. Being blessed with a God that has high death magic means that you have the same affliction causing effect like somebody who has the heroic ability "Legendary Cruelty". And that effect seems to always get applied when a unit is being hit, regardless from what.

Forget my earlier ramblings, please. :)

Re: Seeking Arrow Test
 

I have updated the first post with information regarding the tests I have now run on the Death Bless and 'Seeking Arrow'.

They are reproduced here for the viewers convenience.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I have now tested the Death Bless more thoroughly with the 'Seeking Arrow' spell, and I can only conclude that it has no effect on the spell with regards having an increased chance of causing afflictions.

For the test I used Bane Lords, and 'Seeking Arrow' casters wearing a shroud which bestowed the Death Bless upon them. I tested the D4 bless, and the D10 bless.

For one of the test runs I also sent the shroud wearers into battle the turn before casting the 'Seeking Arrow' spell, as I heard there was the possibility that the effects of the bless gained from the shroud does not 'stick' unless the unit has been in an actual battle while wearing it.

I also tested the range of damage that was inflicted in order to try and establish the actual damage roll that takes place during the spell.

Results.

'Seeking Arrow' damage mechanics.

Over the course of 400 tests, the average damage observed was 8.2, which corresponds nicely to the indicated damage of the spell, which is 8. The range of damage was between 0 - 24. This seems to indicate that there is a bonus roll added to the damage from the spell, but also an equal resistance roll to reduce/negate the damage.

It has been suggested that the 'Seeking Arrow' spell does 8 + DRN ( - DRN) points of damage. I am now pretty convinced that this is true. Although I was not able to determine if re-rolls for 6's are unlimited or not.


The Death Bless

After 100 tests in each category, the following number of afflictions were observed

No Death Bless - 18
D4 Bless - 19
D10 Bless - 21
D10 Bless (afterbattle) - 16

In the final 100 tests, the shroud wearers were engaged in a battle the turn before they cast the 'Seeking Arrow' spells. All this was done to ensure as well as possible that there was no problem with the bless effects from the shroud in 'sticking' to the unit.

The affliction mechanics from the manual states that the chance of an affliction occurring is the % HP lost in the attack multiplied by any extra affliction chance, such as the one caused by the Death Bless.

A Bane Lord has 42 HP, and a D4 bless increases the affliction chance by 100%. Now if my understanding of the mechanics are correct, in theory if the Bane Lord is hit for 21 HP (50% chance of an affliction occurring) or more from a D4 blessed unit, there should be a 100% chance of an affliction occurring (50% increased by 100% is 100%). During the D4 test, there was one incidence of 21 HP of damage occurring, but no affliction was seen.

A D10 bless has a 400% chance of causing an affliction, so in theory if a Bane Lord is hit for 9 HP (approx >20% chance of an affliction occurring) or more from a D10 blessed unit, there should be a 100% chance of an affliction occurring. Here is the maths I'm basing this on in case anyone thinks 20% increased by 400% is only 80%.

20% increased by 100% is 40% - D4 bless
20% increased by 200% is 60% - D6 bless
20% increased by 300% is 80% - D8 bless
20% increased by 400% is 100% - D10 bless

So >20% increased by 400% is >100%. During both the D10 tests, there was 63 occurrences of 9 or more HP of damage occurring, but no affliction seen.

Conclusions.

-The damage roll/mechanic for the 'Seeking Arrow' spell is 8 + DRN ( - DRN) *** Note the defender roll is minus all the damage, as it is possible for the defender to negate all the damage with a high enough roll.***

- The Death Bless has no effect when it comes to causing afflictions with the 'Seeking Arrow' spell.

I still have to run tests on other possible defences like etherealness, twist fate, regen etc. But I think I have tested all I can for the Death Bless, and have not once witnessed it having even the slightest effect with regards causing afflictions. (unless someone can suggest another way to test it).

The games used for these tests can be downloaded in the first post of this thread.

'Thank You' to anyone who reads this and anyone who offers feedback.

Re: Seeking Arrow Test (Updated 1st June 2009 to V1.1 with Death Bless tests)
 

Necro :)

Calahan, I found this thread and your test results in my KB file (with grep magic) and followed the crumbs to here.
I was looking for an answer to a hypothetical question: Can seeking arrow (or a bunch of) be used effectively as an SC killer?

Let's take an example: a fully equipped Seraph attacked by a barrage of say 20 arrows. Is it a worth while investment?

Your results show: "300 Scouts equipped with a Small Shield (Parry 4) --- 150 died, 39 received afflictions."
So 50% got > 10 hp damage. Say 50% of 20 arrows do 10 hp damage. Should be enough to bring the fellow down?- nope?

Re: Seeking Arrow Test (Updated 1st June 2009 to V1.1 with Death Bless tests)
 

Haven't done any testing, but Micah killed one off my fully kitted Arch Devil once with a hail of seeking arrows. Certainly a worthwhile investment in the right circumstances - its actually a fairly reasonable price against mid HP SCs that self buff luck or just aren't wearing a lucky item. Seraphs would be great targets. You wouldn't need 20 arrows with how they're typically kitted, 10 would likely work.