Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Just started a Brit long campaign, and I bought some of the colonial infantry for flavour.When I was looking at their stats, I noticed that their Lewis guns have 1 higher Accuracy than the Bren gun. Isn't this out of whack, given that the Bren was almost too accurate for its role, or does accuracy cover something other than what I think, mechanically?

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Something for the to be investigated pile for next year's data update exercise.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

There's nothing to investigate. Both weapons use the same .303 ammo and the Lewis gun's barrel is 1.5 inches longer than a Bren and under the accuracy calcs we use that gives the Lewis 1 higher accuracy.

Lewis Gun — Barrel Length: 26.5 in = 26.5 / .303 /4 = 21.86 = 22 ACC

Bren Gun — Barrel Length: 25 in = 25 / .303 / 4 = 20.62 = 21 ACC

Don

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Ah. So its all based off a formula then? Interesting.

It does make it sort of an odd situation, since it makes the bren an inferior weapon to the lewis gun. The other factors (reliability) arent applicable here.

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

BREN has a 30 round box magazine, Lewis a 57(?) round drum. You pays your money and takes your choices.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Thats true. But I guess thats factors that arent really applicable to SP.
Anyways, now I understand how the numbers are figured out. Thanks!

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

The Bren is lighter and doesn't jam as much. At least that's what I heard

troopie

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Into the arcane world of the Lewis Gun, the normal infantry version had a 47-rd drum: for airborne use by the RFC/RNAS a 97-rd drum was developed.

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

It's an ACCURACY rating that's why it deals with ACCURACY and not "other factors" as you specifically asked why it had a ....."1 higher Accuracy than the Bren gun".


Don

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Well, I always thought the Lewis gun was about the coolest looking LMG ever made, so I'm content :D

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

The Lewis is clearly much better than the bren. Imperial starship troopers still use them in star wars, albiet painted white.

Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Eh. Im not trying to nitpick, I was just remarking that within the game stats, it doesn't make sense for the British army to have switched to the Bren :)

Like I mentioned, the factors that made the Bren superior aren't modelled in Steel Panthers, and thats okay, given that it'd be rather tedious to keep track of which squads had a jammed gun or whatnot.

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Pick up a BREN - not much heavier than an SLR, a quick change barrel, and a magazine half as heavy again as an SLR.

Then pick up a Lewis, at least twice the weight, and a non-changeable barrel. Pity the poor guys who had to load an overwing Lewis on an SE5 in WW1 in a 120+ MPH gale...

Not modelled in SP games. But then again - at this battalion scale we really only should have Rifle, SLR, SMG, Assault Rifle, LMG. No pesky pistols - irrelevant. No individual names - an SMLE is exactly the same as a Kar98 at this scale. Just like normal 1/300 tabletop wargames rules handle small arms. The difference in stats of a point here or there are just meaningless trivia that only serve to bring out the train spotters really :).

Andy

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Hah. Your right :)

I guess part of it is that Steel Panthers kind of tries to do everything from reinforced battalion down to a company of guys.

In the end, gamers always want more details than what is really required (or logical for the situation)

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Pity the poor guys who had to load an overwing Lewis on an SE5 in WW1 in a 120+ MPH gale...

I think it was mounted on a kind of track so that the pilot could pull it back into a semi-vertical position and change the mag from a sitting position.

Regards,
Warwick

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Make sure you do not get distracted while doing so or you may find other options available

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

I think this is how it goes. Effectiveness of AA gun fire, 2%. Effectiveness of SAMs 8%. Effectiveness of the Ground 100%.

troopie

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

at least fiddling the machine gun is a step up from pulling out a revolver and taking pot shots at the other guy :)

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

While on the subject of Lewis and Bren guns.

I noticed that the LMG Sections in the British OOB are all three man teams.
Shouldn't they be two man teams?

I remember using these a while back, and being surprised how quickly they were spotted and eliminated. Having only a two man section would sure help, and I'd think it would be more realistic.

Units:
482 (Lewis) LMG Section
483 (Bren) LMG Section, early
484 (Bren) LMG Section, late

cheers,
Cross

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Dont think the number of men effects spotting its the size rating that counts. When using them against unpinned infantry do not use all the shots every one increases your chance of being spotted.

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

I'd assumed the number of men played a role. :doh:

I think there's a greater chance of hitting a larger team though. Isn't this why snipers, even once spotted, are such a pain to KO?

Regardless, my main concern is for realism where possible; so a two man team just makes more sense.

cheers,
Cross

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Wrong. Two service the weapon and one is on tea duty! They're Brits after all!:D:D:D

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

[quote=Cross;692084
I think there's a greater chance of hitting a larger team though. Isn't this why snipers, even once spotted, are such a pain to KO?
[/QUOTE]

I don't think so, I remember reading here somewhere that one of the sniper classes special attributes was the ability to convert a killing shot into extra surpression.

I might have it wrong, but I think that's one of the reasons they are so hard to kill.


Matt

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Regarding earlier comments about Lewis gun 3 man team seems sensible for it, 2 to share carrying one with the ammo.
On the tea front Hoplitis was nearly right but from watching the gas board at work it would be 1 on the gun & 2 for tea duty

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Who knows - some OOB "designer" sneaked those in at some point, and they are unused apart from a special formation - which bears no relation to any UK formation.

(The UK section should be LMG group + separate rifle group to reflect the special UK tactics, but weeny little 2-3 teams just die quickly in SP. Especially due to the rule that ~50% casualties is a crippled element. SP sections are best as unitary ones, not groups)

They may be size 0 - I would just ignore them as junk though.

In any case, firing gets you spotted. Even if size 0.

Andy

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

The usual squad formation in many armies is something like a rifle group and a gun (LMG) group. Now as the LMG is the main firepower of the squad the lance corporal {squad 2IC} is put in charge of it. So gunner, loader and corporal makes a 3 man team.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

I'd assumed the LMG teams were for scenario design, to create a MG post for certain situations; or were similar to the frequent two man AT teams we often see in SP. One must assume the AT teams are part of a section/squad and have a Corporal over them somewhere (perhaps he's back at Platoon HQ brewing the tea ;-)

I think Andy makes a good point about vulnerable small teams. The AT teams are expensive, and don't do very well in SP. I rarely use them, and when my opponent uses them they are easily KO. Perhaps they are only useful sitting in ambush at some crossroads.

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

They are possibly useful for that - but like the special farces teams they could be made in the scenario editor if required.

The independent AT teams "section" are not really historical in the UK OOB - but can be used to represent the separating out of the platoon AT teams as tank hunters as was done.

The small 2 man AT teams can be useful in WW2 (they definately are in MBT when they have RPG and MAW, with useful ranges and accuracy) - but only if held behind the rifle sections, not advanced out in front of the platoon. If seen they soon die, esp if 1 casualty makes them require rallying (50% casualties) to do anything.

Andy

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Andy,
Was that a typo or an opinion?:D:D:D

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Not a typo. Opinion on the Walt types that seem to want to have these in their cores as super-ninja Rambo combat storm troopers.


Andy

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Hi Cross
Independant AT killer groups do seem to have existed in the various armies TOES so 2 men would seem to be correct. When the AT weapon is simply issued to a squad member then I think it is unlikely that 2IC is in charge of it as this leaves the LMG unsupervised, other infantry usually being the main threat. I think the squad AT guy/team would be on his own, if he wants LMG covering fire then better that the 2IC is directing that.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

You are right chuck. If we split a section into it's two component parts for fire base and movement, it would be 7 men (rifles), 3 men with 1 LMG.

I guess I'd assumed the unit was merely representing a LMG, rather than a 'half' a section, as SP doesn't provide a 7 man rifle team.

cheers,
Cross

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

They could be extra guns retained at higher command levels and parcelled out (I believe the British did this with bren guns) as well as some enterprising grunts acquiring extra guns from elsewhere (other units, dead guys, bren carriers etc)

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

It is not representing anything, as I said in an earlier post. It is just something an enthusiastic OOB designer added some time back in the past. The section Brens are with the sections, and those units are just some cruft left over, and not deleted just in case some scenario used them.

Andy

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Hi.
On independent LMGs. In Norway, some company-commanders choosed to deploy ther Madsen LMGs in groups apart from the rifle-sections. So sepparate LMGs is not necesseserily wrong. However, on WinSPWW2's scale of 50m hexes, there LMGs can be deployed somewhere else in the hex, without us knowing it. We can not see what deployments the squadleadrs are doing. :D

Halstein.

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

I just came across the following in a 6th Airborne (2nd Battalion Ox and Bucks) war diary entry. It does suggest the independent deployment of Brens and "Bren groups". I share this only because it's interesting and relevant; as I understand and agree that the SP scale should really only go down to sections/squads, with the occasional exception.


6th July 1944

Place: Bréville

This morning 'D' Coy standing patrol spotted five enemy in the area of the buildings 147750 who were firing on one of the Commando patrols on our left.
'D' Coy brought up two Brens and three 2" Mortars into the area of their standing patrol at 143750, and arranged with the Mortar Pl to put down a three minute conc just behind the located enemy at 1045 hrs. As soon as the Mortar conc came down the enemy got up and started to run back to their own lines.
'D' Coy then opened up with their Brens and 2" Mortars and claim to have inflicted at least three casualties on the enemy. It is hoped that the 3" Mortar fire inflicted further casualties as the enemy were not dug in.

It was not until 10 minutes later that the enemy reacted to our fire when he opened up on the area D Coy had fired from with small arms fire - by this time 'D' Coy were back in their main posns.

This afternoon 'C' Coy sent three Bren gps and some snipers into the SOUTH of FOX WOOD 147747 with the object of shooting up the enemy, who were believed to move up into the wood during the evening and occupy it by night. At about 1730 a section of enemy came into the wood from the NORTH and 'C' Coy claim to have inflicted two casualties on the enemy.

This evening the short spell of fine weather broke and we had some thunder and rain. Enemy mortaring and shelling has only been slight and we have incurred no casualties.

---

6th Airborne War Diaries found here:

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/normandy/war.htm

cheers,
Cross

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Yes.

All that is in the standard rifle platoon tactics manual. (The Infantry Platoon in Battle, 1969 I think was the one we used)

Detaching the gun groups from sections to beef up the support fire line is a tactic mentioned there, as is detaching one to take care of enemy unexpectedly found on the approach to the assault. Ambushes and fighting patrols would routinely borrow LMG from the platoon remaining at the base etc. So is detaching a couple of men from the trailing section in the advance to scout ahead of the point section etc. But SP sections are single game pieces!.

Not to mention that if you allowed the less common usages, then the wargamers would ruthlessly exploit it. (Like the German cores that miraculously seem to have most of the SP 88mm they only happened to make 18 of - so the actual thing must have been rather carp! :)).

The "LMG group" remains cruft that an overenthusiastic OOB designer left behind. Note the lack of the balancing rifle groups (ie less 2-3 men and no LMG), and lack of any sections/platoons using these things, just a catch-all formation. (I have tried a proper UK section of an LMG group and a rifle group in 2 parts, but the tiddly little things die like flies (esp when shelled), and the additional rallying all those extra elements bring means that they are easily stopped by a little fire).

Feel free to try a hack yourself:
Platoon HQ:
2 man Platoon commander group (officer and operator/runner)
2 man platoon sgt group (Sgt and runner/spare)
2 man MAW group
2 man 2 inch mortar group
3 * sections each:
2 man LMG team (we never ever used 3 men) and remainder rifles

Now, you are free to move the LMG about within the platoon, even if they normally operated in pairs in the sections with a rifle group.

And wait for the enemy to stonk them with some 81mm, or hit a few with rifle fires..

Andy

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

I think the post earlier about scale says a lot, may be detached but same hex so squad is spread out unlike MMGs which are not.
On the truck 88 occurs to me probably wildly inacurate & perhaps should be reflected.
The truck base has nothing like enough weight to absorb the recoil so rocks posibly falling over with a side shot.

Re: Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?
 

Yeah, nothing like being hit by a company of Finnish T-28's in 1940, they only captured like 3 the whole war :confused: :confused: :confused:

Matt