Working underwater without gills
 

In my last game I was pondering opening a second front on an opponent via an ocean path (I guess you might call it a “beachfront”). The game ended before I could implement anything but I was wondering what approaches others take when they have no indy amphibians. I did scan for a strategy guide for land dwellers working under the waves but didn’t see one. I was playing LA Arco and would be interested in how others would leverage their capabilities in a similar early game scenario. General “land nation” responses would be welcome too. I do recall there are a number of fatigue and other issues that can bite underwater thugging and magically water breathing armies.

Might be useful to hear of uses for taking that token “lake” province too. I know it can open up a number of useful spells. Curious how often players make a lake grab an important part of their strategy.

Holler if I just missed the post that covers these points.

-ssj

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

That's really a great idea for a guide imo.

In one game I was built around a lake.
I needed half a year to get from my cap to a province two provinces away and the water nation (Agema) could raid me in 11 different provinces in just 1 turn.

Ironically I got a Barrel of Air from a lucky event so I just traded everything for getting me underwater, + used indies and attacked him sneakily.

He kicked me out of the water in less than 4 turns I think. :D
I guess I could have done better but even then it would have ruined me.


Some general points:

Since you need water breathing on every mage you can never field as much as him.

Many attack spells don't work at all and your enemy is unlikely to research evocation. This could mean that it's easier to build thugs, if you get something amphibian.

Mostly you get two types of underwater recruitables - chaff and heavy encumbrance - exploit that. Otoh many of the indie provinces allow you to recruit a lot of units quickly (low resource costs) and they are not much weaker than the recruitables of most uw nations.

Mobility - movement is limited to 1 province.
Just raid him and avoid his armies - he has a hard time catching you.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

For getting into the water: Wraith Lords. Bane Lords would probably work too.

(Semi-decent) Replacement for evocation battle magics: Rigor Mortis. Although unless I'm facing hundreds of enemies I usually just rely on Wraith Lord thugs.

-Max

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

In terms of equipment, I find that Wave Breakers (auto Friendly Currents, water breathing on wielder, respectable weapon, Con 4) are a worthwhile investment, especially if you're fielding poor amphibians or landlubbers. Bottles of Living Water are also nice to have. Nothing special against a similarly equipped army, but good for raiding.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

basicly imho primary choices are:

- thugs, sc equiped with waterbreathing equipment or being undead
- lots of undead as troops
- a small focussed army of very very powerful (blessed?) troops with waterbreathing army equipment

most indies underwater are weak and won't hold up agianst national troops and you'll often have weaker watermagic too so be sure you invading force can get reinforced (long lines) or is just so strong you can use it to roll the enemy bakc into his capital

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

I was invading MA Atlantis as LA Agartha in Kingmaker. There are some things you can do, but they are quite limited:

- thugs/SC, first choice, but mobility here is a problem, so best is to teleport/trapeze them in
- elemental spam! that's the best weapon for uw battles [takes lots of gems though], so living water and living earth
- getting some really tough national troops [like heavy cavalry] with water breathing gear [pricey too]

Of course you want friendly currents and sharks on your side. And many spells work fine uw too, like disintegrate, soul slay etc.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Assassin with waterbreathing equipment.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Sea Kings Court.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Thetis' Blessing is a lvl 9 Enchantment ritual that allows everyone to enter the water. If you prepare some armies on your new second front, this will catch the enemy totally unaware.

And if you want to close your second front to prevent counterattacks, just kill the caster. (I don't know what happens to non water breathers in a water nation in such a case, but I think it would be biblical :)).

Against a water nation I would just cast the lvl 7 Alteration ritual, sea of ice. (first ask your allies/foes for water gems to overcast this. Bye bye water nation (hello new archenemy ;))).

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Thanks all for the lucid responses.

Any idea what additional per turn fatigue is incurred for heavy calvary working underwater? Thought there was a penalty but don't have my manual with me.

Are Horrors waterbreathing?

Any comments on the strategic importance of taking that "token lake" province?

-ssj

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Sure, get a lab in there, and you can gateway prepared armies into the lake. Forcing your opponent to create water breathing items to get you out of the lake. Against nations that cannot branch into water paths easy, it really gives you a nice forward staging post.

Get the barrel of air and Sea kings goblet, and your teleporting, gateway, ferryman mage can transport a lot of troops. (The only problems are the lack of leaders in the lake, and the lack of leadership of most mages).

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

I like your thorn strategy.

If I remember voice of tiamat (?) can be very nice for land site searching and is castable only underwater.

Water Royalty (underwater) can be sweet too. I believe one is amphibian.

-ssj

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

You cannot target land provs with voice of tiamat.

Only one water queen is amphibian and she is cool. But you lost 100gems if you summon 2 aquatics in a small lake. They cannot get on land even with fish amulet afaik.

Water-breathing gear gives poor amphibian ability, so check that for fatigue etc. There is reduced AP, so less damage from lances.

The most important resist uw is probably poison, many units have things like poison barbs - nasty things. 2nd is ice. But remember that it does not protect from Encase in Ice [great spell to own SCs by time limit] - target won't take damage but it will get stopped.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

At least one aquatic water queen can get on land with amulet of the fish. But they lose all the cool stuff, specificly the insane regeneration.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Just to reiterate, the easiest way (in my experience) to get underwater is assassins (indies only, of course). Constr 2 gets you amulets of water breathing, and UW commanders are generally weaker than land commanders (just watch out for the occassional powerful W mage).

5 gems (3 w/ hammer) and 100 g (for assassin) is a nice investment for a water province.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Just watch out for all those poisonous weapons.

Also, you need to have access to assassins and water magic for this to be easy. If you do, it is indeed an effective way of taking out water independents, but not that many nations fulfil the requirements to the best of my recollection.



When you are fighting against underwater nations, I find battle magic to be invaluable. You need to use everything you can, of course, but without equalizing magic, natural water nations will stomp all over you.

Thugs are good, but the water nations' thugs are probably better under water, so divert some extra mage time in battle to really buff your thugs up to their new-found gills.

Encumbrance is a very real problem under water, so it is usually a good idea to use troops with low encumbrance and increase protection with spells.

Use a variety of summons if you have the gems to spare; it is often a cheap way to keep the enemy mages busy and away from more important troops. I particularly like Krakens, as they pack a mean punch and are big enough to distract enemy mages from your real thugs.

Finally, do not fall for the line about evocations not working under water - it is probably some propaganda originating from R'lyeh or Oceania (Atlanteans are too busy blasting the other two to bother). There are plenty of air, nature, astral and death spells that do work. You can also exploit an enemy's false sense of security when it comes to elemental or ranged damage in general. Things like a small communion of mystics teleporting in to cover your enemy's ranks in astral fires can win you a major battle and force your opponent to expend valuable resources on fire resistance.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Well, Evo is badly hampered underwater. Nature, Air, Fire and Earth are almost non-existent for long-range damage, and the few spells that are still castable target few units or have low range.

Three paths in my view retain good ranged damage functionality underwater - Water, Astral, Death. Any underwater nation you face has at least one of those in plentiful quantities. And unless you're dripping water gems like a Jotun's sweat in Abyssian domination, supplying enough waterbreathing is not a given, especially if you then plan to summon a load of krakens, sea serpents and so on. Death is possibly your best bet, as so many undead mages are poor amphibians already.

On that basis, what you may be best off doing is maybe a relatively small force of powerful mages hitting big unit buffs.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

I'm not spending a dime on fire resistance. Magic duel is another question = )

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but that seems not quite right. Nature does not have that many evocations to begin with, but sleep cloud works fine, as do poison cloud and stream of life. It is similar with air; you lose thunder strike and wrathful skies, but lightning bolt, orb lightning and shimmering fields remains.


Well, you usually do not need that many Krakens and other summons, just enough to catch attention.
Going under water does require an investment, though, and that is as it should be.

That is a good start, but not using everything you have is rather dangerous. The underwater nations can use unit buffs as well, and their units are better suited to the environment from the start. It may just be me, but I have never managed a successful underwater campaign against an underwater nation as a land based faction without using a liberal amount of attack spells.

That said, it is certainly a good idea to strive for effective use of a limited amount of powerful mages.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Shadow Blasts and Nether bolts reap the field just as well underwater, and you are less likely to face enemy magic artillery.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Good option for Jomon to get into those new UW units.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

I've never defeated an underwater nation with land troops. Dominion kills have so far been faster and less resource intensive in SP for me.

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Dominion kill is a lot harder in MP

Re: Working underwater without gills
 

Oceania and Atlantis tend to have really good recruitable priests, even natural H3. They'd need to be in small lake surrounded by your dominion, preferably with blood sacrificers, to make it work.