[German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

The americans get the 60mm, the british get the 2", both of which have at least decent range.

But the german 50mm seems to lack any qualities at all. It has a tiny shell, and a 10 hex range, which makes it pointless as the delay in calling the fire mission means the fight will have moved too close anyways

I guess the germans figured this out as well, as they quickly ditched them historically.


So what do you guys do with them? Any redeeming features? Swap them for MG teams ?

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

Buy the squads that use them in direct fire role then phase them out.
As you say however the US 60 is a handy bit of kit

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

I agree with IMP. Use the 50's in direct fire mode. Nothing like rounds falling on the enemy along with a few 98K rounds.
Then if you dont like them phase em out. I actually like to have one platoon with the 50s to suppress before the rest of the units move in closer.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

For now, Ive switched them to MG34 groups. I thought about 81mm's instead, or even going with an engineer squad later on.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

SPWW2 has given these weapons their historical ranges.
The German 5cm and Brit 2 inch both had a range of about 500M, the US 60mm about 2000M, and the Jap 5cm 650M; and that's what they each have in the game.

As for 'qualities', the German 5cm (and the Jap 50mm) have been given an accuracy of '5', compared to '3' for the US and UK. This is a bit odd, because the Axis mortars had far shorter barrels than the Brit and US versions.

The German mortar did have lots of impressive - but probably unnecessary - dials for adjusting aim. Giving it a hefty weight of about 30lbs, compared to 10lbs for the Brit and Jap mortars.

The German 5cm also gets twice the ammo of the British. So I don't think the German are 'short changed' in the light mortar department.

None of the mortars (except the hybrid - half light, half med. US mortar) gets any penetration value. Making them even less effective than grenades, which is again a bit odd, as these mortars fired rounds weighing:

Brit: 2.25lb
Ger: 2lb
US: 3lb
Jap: 2lb

I wish these mortars got smoke rounds; which was one of the 2 inchers common functions. Does the US 60mm get smoke? But there may be a game/code reason why not.

I mostly use them in the direct fire role. They can be used with supressive 'Z' fire, but with only 12 rounds (UK) this seems like a waste of ammo.


cheers,
Cross

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

oh, I know its the historically accurate range. The Germans historically phased them out as well, finding them to lack enough of a punch :)

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

The US 60mmHT has the added abilty to tow a ATG and carry a ammo crate as well;)

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

[quote=Cross;690194
I wish these mortars got smoke rounds; which was one of the 2 inchers common functions. Does the US 60mm get smoke? But there may be a game/code reason why not.

I mostly use them in the direct fire role. They can be used with supressive 'Z' fire, but with only 12 rounds (UK) this seems like a waste of ammo.


cheers,
Cross[/QUOTE]


Cross,

Monty himself deprecated the 2in mortar as the most useless piece of kit ever foisted on the British Army! (Wish I could find the quote again...) He said its only use was in firing smoke - which we don't have in the game, alas.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

Hi John,

Yes I've heard some of the disdain for the 2 inch. I recall Andy saying that he had a trainer who suggested something like, 'its only use may be to club the enemy'.

However, when it was in trained or skillful hands, I've also heard it could very effective. I heard a claim that it could be accurate to 6 feet at 500 yards! This sounds exagerated, but perhaps its possible - with observed fire - to get pretty close after you've fired a couple of shots to adjust your aim.

The 2 inch could also be fired directly, supposedly, like a grenade launcher.

Here's an interesting excerpt:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3773/2inchmortar.jpg


cheers,
Cross

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

The squad integrated versions don't have smoke becasue there is no way to assign smoke rounds to a "mortar" in that case but the regular version of the 2in mortar certainly do have smoke rounds. 7 - 9 of them in most cases which averages to 66% of their total ammo load


Don

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

Hi
I think it would be reasonable and authentic to give the Jap knee mortar British 2 inch and German 50cm mortars an indirect fire bombardment delay of 0 as they have no bipod and so go into action virtually instantaneously. (The german mortar has a quick release on the elevation mechanism allowing it to be aimed quickly manually.)
The ideal employment for these weapons is the cover dead ground around a coy point defensive position. As mentioned in the origional post the delay of 3 precludes them doing this effectively in-game.
The Brixia may also qualify for a lessened delay (perhaps 1) owing to the short ranges involved (The elevating dial seems not to have a quick release mechanism.)
I believe the germans ditched the 50 as it was inaccurate and expensive.
From lone sentry for the 50
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...%3Den%26sa%3DG
and the brixia
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...%3Den%26sa%3DG

Best regards Chuck.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

smoke is not "ammo" in the game - there is no way to mobhack it. It is an attribute that is added to an element by the code, for weapon slot 1, and not the weapon.

The problem with the 2 inch was that it took up 2 men (if the platoon assigned the appropriate crew), for a marginally useful device. The main problem was humping the ammunition (and HE was only rarely issued, it was meant for smoke and illuminating). A dozen or so rounds between the 2 guys would be about all that could reasonably be carried. Sights were just a white line painted on the tube, so anyone skilful with the thing did it through a lot of firing practice! :)

Those 2 men could be used for more useful tasks in the rifle platoons, which were always short of manpower. Sometimes then the platoon sergeant humped it and a very few rounds in his backpack instead.

The PIAT or later the 84mm MAW however, were seen as useful and justifying the manpower assigned to the beasties and their weight, and that of their ammunition.

However, by 1975 our 2 inchers sat and festered in the armoury and were only brought out for the annual recruit training course where a few rounds of smoke and illum were fired to demonstrate it to the newbies. (We had the Shermuly single-shot flare that could be assigned to any grunt by then, and decent smoke grenades ditto.)

Apparently though the new 51mm has had a good response - as it had sights (a simple bubble level) and a useful range - 750 metres or so, plus HE was regularly issued (And that had a pre-fragmented case). And it seems the new 60mm commando mortar is popular as well.

The 2 inch in UK platoon HQs was really only added for those players that think it was some sort of "super duper giant grenade launcher". It was not - it was a smoke and flare thrower that many units simply left in the rear line transport and only brought forwards for the formal assaults. HE ammo for it was like hen's teeth.

Cheers
Andy

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

Don,

Thank you very much for this info. I was not aware I could buy the 2 inch mortar as a seperate unit. I vaguely recall seeing it in the past, but I think I dismissed it, assuming it would have no smoke ammo.

The details you guys have been able to work into this game continues to astound me...

I just searched and found it among the MISC units. I can see where perhaps it doesn't really fit the 'Artillery' category, but perhaps it could be in 'Infantry'. But this is a tough one...

Anyway, I can definately see where this light mortar team could be real useful in the right situation, and will be sure to use it in the near future.

cheers,
Cross

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

ps. The 2 inch team is 3 men. Any chance of lowering this to a more realistic 2 man team?

cheers,
Cross

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

Now corrected in all applicable OOBs along with the overabundance or arms some units in some OOB's had. Some OOB's designers in the past just couldn't resist filling up the four slots

Don

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

yeah, some of the infantry types seem a bit enthusiastic :)

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

That's because some infantrymen are enthusiastic about latching onto extra kit. Have one Bren gun? Well Bell and van Ness are skilled in its use, so we'll send a creeper to the armoury to nick a second. And grenades, we can always use more grenades.

troopie

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

Thats true, and I can roll with that.
Where it gets weird for me is having 2 rifle slots.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

The guy that is carrying the LMG in slot 2 has a rifle instead, all but slot 1 represent one weapon.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

I mostly see it for "rabble" type of units that get 2 rifle slots, a grenade slot and nothing else.

But even in the above example, the rifle fire already factors in the size of the squad, so having a separate rifle attack for that guy makes no sense. He'd be firing his rifle just the same as any other guy.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

It balances it if a squad has rifles plus a LMG & can fire them all then it could fire its rifles & another weapon say a rifle SMG shotgun or whatever in the case of the squads you stated. If it has nothing it has effectivly lost a shot.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

German 50mm's have more accuracy, but they have shorter range. What that "can" amount to, is that once a longer ranged, less accurate piece is brought down to actually being used at the shorter range, it may be just as accurate or better, because it's lesser accuracy is based on a higher number to begin with. I don't know if the number it is based on is the medium range for all weapons or not, but I doubt it's based on the longest range, which is probably considerably less accurate than the accuracy stated. For example, a tank gun with a range of 60, with an accuracy of 10, would be more accurate at range 20, than a gun with a top range of 20, but a stated accuracy of 12.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

The German 5cm has the same range as the British 2 inch, 500M.

Ger 5cm.....500m....Acc 5
Brit 2in.......500m....Acc 3
Jap 50mm...650m....Acc 5
US 60mm...2000m..Acc 3
Rus 50mm..800m....Acc 3

As you can see, the Axis mortars are more accurate.

If it's as you say - and the mortar accuracy is relevant to say half range - then at 250m the German mortar would have an acc of 5, the Brit mortar an acc of 3, and the Rus mortar an acc of about 2



cheers,
Cross

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

Probably about the only mortars where accuracy has any relevance as you do end up direct firing the shorter ranged ones.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

Oops, I meant:

and the Rus mortar an acc of about 4




.

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

and by then, its usually dire straits anyways :)

The 50mm crews tend to do more harm with their small arms than with the mortar, though it can scare off an armoured car and blow up the occasional truck

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

Nah, I think you got your numbers mixed up. Half-range would change for whatever your full range is. Obviously, the USA one would have the greatest accuracy across the board, since the range is so vast. It's 4X the range of the german one, but with only 60% of the german 'stated' accuracy. So if accuracy were stated at maximum range, but used at the german maximum range (500m) then the US accuracy at that range would be 12 (3X4). If it would be at half-range, then USA would be 6 (3X2), while german would be like maybe 2.5 if it were half-range.

I'm only guessing of course, but you can see where accuracy without serious range, can be outshone by comparative lack of accuracy with great range. When considering that, the USA ones are by far the best in accuracy. The only way that the USA holds the seeming lack of accuracy, is if all accuracy were based on a solid range, such as 10 hexes or 20 hexes for each and every unit. I don't think it was done that way. Now who's going to shoot me down:hide:?

Re: [German] What do you do with your 50mms ?
 

I just came accross something that also may qualify. The 2 man USA unit 234 "Cavalry Scouts" has M1 Garand, BAR, M9 rifle grenade and grenades.
Best Regards Chuck.