"Nationalized" OOB's
 

This is a poll concerning the "Nationalized" OOB's in SPWW2. Specifically the two Spain's, both Italian OOB's, both French OOB and Finland. To a lesser extent It also concerns Hungary and Germany although really......if you play wargames you know what a "Panzer" is though maybe not a Finn "Psv Pataljoona"

We would like to find out just how most players who have used or tried to use these OOB's feel about these being done to a large extent in their national language.

Although we have provided translations of the terms it is felt that many people may be avoiding these OOB because sorting out what "Panssariautot" is in the Finn OOB or "Esc AMR mixte" in the French OOB's or what a "Camions Pesados" is in the Spanish OOB's can slow things down somewhat.

A few release back we switched all Hungarian formation names to English leaving the unit names generally Hungarian. The response to this change was ........nothing at all. AFAIK nobody has ever commented one way or the other. At the time we tried the "Nationalized" OOB's it was felt this would add a new more "realistic" dimension to the game. For some it was an unwanted added dimension but generally is really never been a "hot" topic but we'd like to see how people feel about this. We will certainly consider changing this ( or leaving it alone ) if it is indeed an "issue" for people but only if there is a serious response. Ten or even twenty people voting isn't going to change anything. We'd need to see a really serious number of responses for a switch to English . If this is an issue we'll hear about it......if not then we'll know it's not so if you feel strongly about this one way or the other.....PLEASE VOTE.

Thanks


Don

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I'll have to think a little before voting on this one. While it would be nice for it to be "easier" to immediately know what is what, I prefer the more historical terminology. This may be due my prior military background and interest in history but for me at this moment, I am leaning heavily toward "I like things just the way they are".

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Yes being "english only" impaired.

I would like to know exactly what i'm buying.

But like the unit's obb class be in native for sake of realism.

I did vote for #2 though.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Altough I speak spanish and understand italian I would like them to be all in english. I´m Glad you mentioned it Don: In fact I had some issues with the German OOB at first the way it is now until I got used to it. Is it posible to include an alternative file for those who want to pick units by their original names?

Keep Cool!

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I prefer the national languages names both for colour and to emphasize differences in doctrine and design.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

On one hand, I like having the real names, as its more authentic, but it does make it extremely hard for me to pick, say, a spanish army and actually know what sort of grunts I am picking.

I think the option of having english formation names, but nationalized unit names is a good one.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

When I converted the Hungarian OOB to English formation names I included a copy of the original OOB in it's own custom OOB folder. ( Magyar nyelv OOB-- if a player doesn't know what that means he won't have the least bit of interest using it :) ) However, on reflection this wasn't the best idea because I haven't been ( and won't be ) keeping two sets of OOB in sync with any changes to weapons or units. On one had this isn't really an issue because the Hungarian OOB has been stable for quite some time but keeping two sets of OOB's for France, Vichy France, Italy , RSI, Spain and Republican Spain plus Finland and Hungary ( and some would suggest Germany ) is not going to happen. It also complicates PBEM were every player has to ensure they are using the correct OOB.

As I mentioned at the start. Nothing will happen without a large response for change and if there is a consensus for change it's more than likely only going to be formation names unless there is a huge overwhelming call for full change and if there is I can only see that happening in stages. But right now what we are trying to find out is just how many people have an opinion one way or the other. Typically polls on this forum have very poor response and so far this ones no different. As I write this there have been 73 views and 6 votes and that tells me the vast majority of players don't care one way or the other ( which, in retrospect, should have been one of the voting categories )



Don

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I finally voted for:

I'd be happier if at least the formation names were in English

I had to think about this for a while. I speak only english, and sometimes struggle with that :rolleyes:. (After all, that's why we fought the war, so we all wouldn't end up having to speak German :D )

However, I enjoy learning some of the original language names for units and equipment; and some nuances are lost in translation.

I also very much appreciate that this is an international game and community, and don't think english should be the exclusive language used.

But in the end, the one thing that we almost all have in common is at least a basic grasp of english. It's the closest thing we have to an international language.

Using english for only the formations is probably the best compromise. I think it will speed up the OOB learning curve and encourage people to experiment with a greater variety of nations. But we won't lose the orignal flavour of the units.


cheers,
Cross

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

My view formations in English for easy buying, unit names as are for flavour when playing. I did not realise Hungary had changed but perhaps I played them since changed because they were

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

One great reason for the scenario hack editor... RENAME your units!!!
I find myself going through the unit purchasing menu actually looking at all the differnt units available in the game. Coming from SPWaW it is unusual to see the units and formations in their true names. It adds an international flavor to a game based on a historic event, that did effect the whole world! :cool:

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

German OOB in WinSPWW2 please do not touch!
It is our history !

It is interesting to me to understand names formations other countries.

It hardcore game for me also I vote for realism.:fire:

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I really have no intention or interest in changing the German OOB unless there is overwhelming support for that idea which I sincerely doubt will happen.


Don

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

The only trouble with this is you have to remember to swap OOBs back for PBEM or send him yours. The reason I never bothered to rename my formations & understand Dons comment about keeping 2 going is that you have to redo for every patch to keep current. A half way house might be possible but depends on name lengths using abreviations at the end such as.
AT anti tank
RC Rifle company
RP Rifle platoon
RCT Truck Company
RPT Truck Platoon
RCM Mech Companny
SC Ski Co
PC Para Co
EC Elite Company
2C 2nd line of some type or CC Conscript com
Sc Scout or Rec for recon
TC TP TS Tank company Plat Sec
AC AP AS Armoured car same
TDC etc Tank destroyer
LTC Light tank
HTC Heavy tank
LM MM HM Light med heavy mortars
FG Field guns
OBL OBM OBH OBR offboard light med heavy rocket
etc etc.
This might be less work & satisfy both camps though some names may need to be shortened to accomadate but if stuck at end in caps using max of 3 letters people would soon pick up abreviations.
There would still be the odd thing that might need a second look but most would be straight forward. Yes as listed for example offboard arty would not know if its a battery or troop but you would know what it contains & name might well give rest away but you do have a good idea what units it contains.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I like the original names, but allways wandered why the information button is not used more to get some background information about the units intended use.
Only seen it mostly used in spmbt Uk oob.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Voted to keep things as they are. I'd hate to see the Italian names disappear in particular. I can't imagine the game without Bersaglieri or Camicie Nere or Autoblinda's.

The old Hungarian names did give me problems but the information button had the translation on hand. I haven't commented on the change in the hungarian OB as I'm not yet sure how I rate it. It does make the OB easier to understand but I'm not sure if that equates to a better game.
Thinking about it now, I do feel that changing the OB's you're considering now would in my view make the game less rich.

Narwan

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Hi Guys
I voted for no change.
I like the challenge of learning new things and after all this time playing SP, I know what most things are called.

I didn't notice the Hungarian change either.
I would notice if it had been Germany, Italy or Spain.

Cheers
SGT

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Is there a fourth option?

Would it be possible to sort the OOB into:

Companies
Platoons
Sections

Perhaps by separating them with headings. 'Companies' at the top, then scroll a page or two and see 'Platoons'; so people will instantly know what formation they are looking at.

Another possiblity is using another layer of buttons. Click on Armour, then click on Companies, Platoons or Sections button.

Don't most people 'shop' this way anyway?

Headings may be easier than all the work involved in option 2 or 3.

Just a thought...


Cheers,
Cross

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I voted for No 1.

Nationalised OOBs DO add flavour to the game. :cool:

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Too much spice gives you ... well you know what!:D

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I have a stomach of iron... ;)

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

How about the option to turn it on and off as oppose to having just one or the other.:)

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Turn what on and off ? The formatiomn/unit names are integral to the OOB. They are not something you turn on and off. They have to be one way or the other they cannot be both


Don

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I voted for all english, but extensive use of the INFO button might be a better bet- same flavor, less heartburn...



Matt

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I like English, I speak English. I dont speak anything else. Everything English gets my vote.

English Good.....


Even if you did change them couldnt you just have two downloads one for english only and one for everything else?

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I love the non english OOBs I was familar with the Hungarian OOb in Hungarian, can we have it back in Hungarian? or is it Maygar?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

If you'd been PAYING ATTENTION to this thread Chuck you would know that there is an all Hungarian language OOB sitting in the custom OOB folder.

Don

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I feel the same as Gila. He could NOT say it any better....Therefore I voted number 2.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

hello!

I voted number one

Just would'nt be the same advancing over the stepe with my German armoured infantry platoon and tanks.

Pz Gren Zug any day!

Having said that I would add the clasue that I have been put of playing the Italians as I didn't know what I was buying. I'd ask for loads more info in the info tab but realise that we be way to much work, so I stick with my vote, leave it be!:up:

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Excuse me for being thick but I do not see how adding stuff to the info button saves clicking through the fprmations you cannot browse to see what you have.

Ex
Click formation click info button thats 2 clicks for each formation.

Click formation click on a unit in it read the unit class in yellow top left, thats 2 clicks to told you its Infantry Paras Armored car or whatever if need be can check morale exp mods across top again in yellow to see if elite or 2nd line

Uses for the info button are usefull info hence possibly the name.
Formation used as such i.e normally allocated 1 per 3 rifle companys between 1/42 to whatever.
Spec forces not normally found fighting alongside regular army.
Rebel forces etc or something unusual.
Listing super rare stuff would be nice like those truck 88s that I have never used
Background info on use or tactics if the OOB designer is so kind as to include. Now this adds flavour to the game you can fight with them with those details fresh in your mind.

Formation name makes no diffrence once the game starts at no point does it say you are moving your Zug across whatever you are moving a group of MkIIIs or whatever which you could call Hanz Dead beats Zug3 CoB or whatever thats in your head like the premise for the battle & forces at your disposal unless you rename them all to something historical like proper call signs. That I can see adding flavour to people that understand them.

If flavour is wanted to be added how about this as a thought
Add a blank entry at the start of the encyclopedia that gives general info on that nation, as per Croatia off the top of my head in MBT

If people were willing to do the research I am sure adding this would not be to hard
Example.
Give some time period specific info on formations & most common units & perhaps which tend to work with which.
So you could say from 1/42-12/43 Panzer Divisions consisted of X number of Companys. Tank, Pz grenadier & had AA & Arty assets integral to the formation.
Armed with this info you could pick your forces with the correct ratio of equipment assuming it is at full strength. Its therefore easy enough to buy any force roughly correctly by keeping the ratios the same. Play with a quarter of it just divide by 4 & now you are ready to go.
To me having this info readily to hand & fighting with an about right force is much more involving than calling a formation whatever simply because it has no bearing on the game whatsoever after you leave the purchase screen. I am strugling to remember what my scouts & AT teams are called the formation name is long gone unless I play them on a regular basis but correct unit names do impart atmosphere & as you are dealing with them each turn so soon pick it up

This also can be used by MBT & modern conflicts notes could be added to
For instance rather than looking up details if a nation has been in a conflict it could be listed in the encyclopedia. Want to play Israel look for conflicts before set it up & there are your dates & protaganists. Vietnam list sides & dates etc, if someone had time on their hands could even include a little synopsis of events.

Sorry got a bit long & this would add to the work load as Don & Andy would have to vet everything. Perhaps adding to Encyclopedia with a button so CD only might persuade a few more people to buy it

As a thought & "easy" fix could use above idea to give translations
Co Platoon Section The type Tank Armored Car etc.
Not ideal for those that want english formations but using this what ever naming format is decided on the translation could be given. So if in English those wanting real names could look them up as deploy or start game. Thats something you cant do now but a translation text in the encyclopedia would let you access it at any time for those that it seems to improve the game. Also helpful for anyone who is more fluent in that language possibly

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I voted 2nd. When I found winSPWW2 I was really confussed by the oobs. I had grown up with SP1 with a comparitiavly small number of formations and units, all in english. It took me a while to get used to the names. I do like the realism the nationalized OOBs give and I don't mind checking out all of the different formations and units I don't know. I use the information button a lot. I may not know how to pronounce the unit's name, but I know this weapon can clean my opponent's clock. My own interest aside, I think that by at least listing the formations in a consistant and standard language it would shorten the learning curve for new players, whether they are fimilar with the SP series or not.

I'm with Cross on this. I think that it would make think a lot easier overall, for everyone, to have the companies, platoons, and sections grouped together. It would shorten search time for formations. It takes me forever to find the right German Mech infantry formations for battles because they all look the same with the expection of 2 to 3 letters. It would also help the learning curve for new players because the OOB would have additional structure beyond just Armour, Infantry, Artillary, and Misc.

Now, with all that said, if my vote swings the change to formations only, I'll take it. If everything stays the same, I won't complain.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

2 Schools of thought but OOBs are generally sorted in same structure so infantry starts with Paras then runs through ending in sections. Armour starts with armored cars etc.
Admitedly a few things have gone walkies probably due to the amount of revisions things like taking German Heavy AC at bottom but generally things are arranged Company Platoon Section for armour & same for infantry but with sections lumped at the end as tend to be diffrent unit types.

I like the format of Co then platoon as I can buy the company then quickly sell 1 platoon & buy the same type of unit with diffrent equipment, say 1 platoon with Panzerfausts or 60m Mortars for instance.
While it would be nice if all OOBs were uniform I feel this is a huge job & not really sure how works but may need the pick list revised.
As said they generally follow a patern its just the odd formation that has migrated & hence needs hunting down.
There are so many diffrent ways to organise it you are not going to please everyone but I must admit my main reason for wanting English formations is to hunt down those that are out of place. FOO vehicles in MISC, Light SPAA in ARMOUR not ARTY or the odd Platoon that is not listed after its company.
Could probably run a search to find whats out of place if sorting is not a big headache.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

The problem with native language OOB's seems to be during purchasing phase. It seems that most everyone likes the "flavor" that Nationalized OOB's offer. I might have a solution.

On the main buy screen you have your main categories - Armor, Infantry, Artillery, etc. What if when you clicked on one of these buttons a sub-group page opened. For instance click Armor, the next page would have Main battle Tanks, CS, TD's, Mine Clearing, etc. When you click on one of the sub group buttons the choices are there for that portion of the OOB just as they are now, but only items from that sub-group. When you buy and are finished with a particular piece(s) of equipment, it takes you back to the sub-group menu. If you're finished, click a main buy page button and your back to choose another category or finish.

I think this would simplify and quicken buying troops and equipment listed in their native language. Making it easier for us English only guys. Plus it probably wouldn't be too hard to implement, just assign the particular OOB numbers range to the corresponding sub-group button. Just my two cents.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

There are plenty of visual clues in the Buy screens without needing to understand the language, surely? So please please keep as is - if not translate a few more. If everything were translated into English, not only would you lose the flavour but you would also hit a potential anomaly in the play screens, when you'd get for example "Infantry Squad fires on Infantry Squad", and if you've got a big battle going on, you're left wondering whether that's your support unit, or enemy return fire.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I prefer the native language to search for units in the web, but I think in the case of the Chinese are not going to write the character oobs in Mandarin. I think there are more difficult languages. Perhaps in the most difficult languages they can add to an abbreviation in English units on the drive type (although I speak Spanish)

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Je préfère les noms dans la langue d'origine. Meilleure immersion même si c'est quelques fois dur Ã* comprendre.

I prefer the names in the original langage. Best Immersion albeit sometimes hard to understand

Yves

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

IMO, the foreign languages in the OOBs just makes it more difficult to select units without adding any enjoyment of the game. Just my 2 cents, I'm sure others feel differently.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I don't think so, it's easy to understand what you're buying after a look around the oob, also note that there are images to help you out

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I like the historical touch with "nationalised" names. Was thinking of changing formation and unit names in Czechoslovakia OOB to Czech, but then nobody else will understand :D
OTOH inexperienced players might be confused... An idea struck me (though it would be a strain on The Developpers - but OTOH it might be outsourced) - include English equivalents in Encyclopaedia texts (or conversely use English in game and Encyclopaedia for original names) - will try to make a short demo in the weekend and upload it here.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Add in the unit and formation info(green text) a note on what is that should work.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Promised demoversion is here. done ca. first 100 formations in Czechoslovakian OOB (037) - just formation names, in czech and English, nothing fancy, just to demonstrate the concept.
Actually spent more time by recalling how to set up the text splitting software than writing it :)

To install, just unpack .txt files into your Game Data/Text folders, tried to make sure that Ido not overwrite any original text files so should not affect the game at all (except, of course, adding some texts ;)).

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

The only thing is...... the Czech OOB isn't one the "problem" OOB's and I have no intention of letting it be turned into one. :)

Don

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I know, but had I tried it say with Germany, 1) there will be much more formations in first 100 and 2) someone would nitpick I did not use ceorrect full name of given formation - here I am safe, there aren't that many Czechs around here ;)
Anyway, as I wrote, it's demonstration of concept.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

I dont like "nationalaized" oobs. Just bought SPWW2 and it is very hard looking example German infarny like 7 pages long list and guess what is what.

I prefer like english words example sniper. It is very frustraiting buy troops now:(

By the way this SPWW2 is best of Steel Panther 2 series !!! VEry good job there ! And only 40bucks

This is my 5cents to national oobs problem. Purhace screen is english and when click unit information there is national name on unit.
Then it is a lot easier buy units.

Re: "Nationalized" OOB's
 

Given you've only just started playing the game perhaps it might be an idea to give yourself a bit more time to acclimatize yourself to the game concept ?

A good way to start would be to read the game guide at least once, preferably two or three times and, in the case of the OOB's that use nationalised naming, spend some time studying the TRANSLATIONS section of the Game guide

The Game Guide can be found as the top item in the HELP tab of the opening Game Options screen. The TRANSLATIONS for names and abbreviations of the following languages...German , Hungarian , French , Spanish and Italian can be easily accessed by clicking on the second to last item of the Index on the left side of the screen.

Don