Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

I am just planning to release that mod, hard to say when exactly, but I am gathering ideas etc. I really like CBM and many small cool mods, but they are rarely used. And playing with all of them is not easy. So I thought about making a modpack that would enhance gameplay and go a bit farther with balance than CBM. And it would be an option for people that want something else.

So please write here suggestion on what it should include, so far I plan to have:
- CPCS mod by Burnsaber, with cross-path spells
- Holy War mod by Burnsaber too
- that big pack with new magic sites, if it's balanced
- banned spells: utterdark, nexus, astral corruption, burden of time
- banned insane magic sites [like summoning circle or ultimate gateway]
- banned gem generators [clam, fetish, blood stone]
- Zlefin's mod with F&W summons
- latest version of CBM complete
- forgable const12 items [like bogus items, fire set etc]

I am also thinking about:
- removing tartarians from the game
- making some unused units summonable [for example Asmegs]
- making same gem incoem from capital sites for all eras as in EA [to make it fair for multi-era games]

Any other ideas?

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

you know what I want to say.. but I won't since I'm pretty sure that is not the intention :D

and then:
I'd not put the forgabel cont 12 items in.
I'd put the late game summons from I think llama or edi or one of the other regulars don't know which in instead of that F&W mod I think.. or maybe both.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

maybe just put a bunch of race mods in too.. I mean why not. only use races that are generally considered MP balanced though.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Just some critiques:

Removing gem generators entirely seems a bit drastic, since there are some nations that really NEED them. (Kail/Bandar/Patala, sorta Machaka)

Removing Tartarians effectively neuters a host of nations' endgame. Though it does work a little better if you remove clams, thus reducing the wish spam. It also helps some already very powerful nations like Nief, Ashdod, Hinnom, etc.

Other than that, sounds great! Check w/Burnsaber though about using both of his mods, I think they might have some major conflicts with all the new spells he's thrown in.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

If you are removing tartarians you might want to remove Wish, Although I would be against taking out tartarians.

Someone has a mod out there that enhances the reward of the Arena. Its minor but makes the Arena at least sometimes worthwhile, which would be nice.

Maybe include the flags mod for the better visual effects?

Maybe leave fever fetish but take out the other two gem generators? Otherwise Machaka= :( or you could change the required forging level to make them harder to use, perhaps 4 for fetish and 6 for clams and stones? Also I've always thought making artifacts require construction 9 was a pretty good idea.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Awesome idea, Zeldor! I was actually thinking of doing something like this myself, but you beat me to it. If you need help with anything, just PM the word and I'll see what I can do.


I really like the idea of allowing the con12 items. Shortsword could be good for human nations to leverage against the giants, for example. Does anyone have the complete list of the con12 items and what do they do?

The Endo's magic site mod is probably balanced. Most of the sites are unigue, uncommon or rare. Should be a good addition with the removal of school-uber sites, so that there are some sites to look forward to. You should chek the recruitable units thought (just check the unit numbers they use and set them as recruitables for some nations) . Those are basically the only thing that could be unbalanced.

About making Asmegs recruitable.. hmm. Don't know, the graphic at least is hideous, don't know their backstory. But you know, now that I think of it, Golden Naga & Daughter of the Land could make good F & W summons. Golden Naga could be the mother of Fire Snakes and Daughter of the Land some kind of naiad-queen. Since you have the graphics already, it's just about statting them.

Balancing the gem income between eras for single-age games also sounds good. If someone throws a fit just because the EA Kailaisa gets one gem less at the beginning of the game while LA Bogarus gets one more, this mod isn't probably his forte.

Nah. You just run into the first sign of "brokeness", the "warping". the term originates from MtG, very powerful effects warp the game, creating this sort of hypothetical vortex that sucks all other stragedies into them. The gem generators have been rampant for too long, now people just can't imagine anything else to do. Seriously, there is a lot do with machaka other than fetishes, I'm just getting trounced by meglobob's machaka in Cripple_Fight and I'm playing Vanheim! I have freaking skinshifters, blade winds and thunderstrikes!

It's time to cleanse the game of their wretched presence, purge them in the holy fires of modding! Once the smoke clears, take a look in the cleansed game and see promised land. Opportunities, now boundless. Wish 'spam', nonexistent. Stupid micro that you have to do to be competive, no longer there.

You have a point here. Removing the only non-unique SC chassis will greatly benefit those nations who have ones as recruitable. But if he also incorporates the Llamas thug mod, it would fix this.

Perhaps you could just nerf Tartarians? Like lowering hp's, magic picks, stats and so forth?


Holy War + CPCS = no problem. They just eat the ingame spell slots like crazy. IIRC with those mods combined, there are slots for 33 more spells added in other mods. But it's not really set in stone. since he is also removing spells, you can overwrite Arcane Nexus, etc.. giving 4 more slots. There are also 2 very "heavy" spells in CPCS. If you remove just those two spells, you get 9 slots free.

I also just got some ideas on CPCS. I might be able to remove 2 spells without affecting the mod at all by some clever hacks.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

I guess I just kind of like having lots of gems. I like to set magic sites to 60 in any games I start.

Sort of a sidenote about the uber sites, the UG is currently saving my arse in an MP game, so while I suppose I would agree they can be very disruptive, I still like them :D I was even more excited at first because I thought the UG would stack with the bottomless lake or whatever with a 20% boost, 70% discount FTW!! :D

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

If you use my mod-combining script you'll be able to collate these without worrying about clashes.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Tarts are already nerved somewhat, maybe just increase their gem cost.

I just saw mythology pretenders as a thread in the forum.. might be an idea too.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Ok, to sum some comments:

- tartarians: the really bad thing about them is how insane paths you can get from them, like lvl7 without boosters! and they make late game really boring, all that wishign for chalice, casting GoH, GoRing, then trapezeing A2E3 tarts or using them as heavy spellcasters. You no longer have your nation. You have tartarians backed by your mages [usually just making gear for them or assisting as minor casters in battles].

- fetishes: they are micro, way more micro than clams, they are the definition of what should never exist in MP game, they are cool in limited quantities, not when you have tens of them

- llama's thug mod: sure, I will take a look

- joining mods: I wanted to use llama's tool from the beginning, that's why it is called a mod pack :)

- changed balanced because of some stuff removed - some things could be controversial, maybe QM will get convinced to create more radical version of CBM with real balance things, that didn't get through, if not, I may do smth like that for next version, boosting some weaker nations and nerfing clearly overpowered [so mainly ones with recruitable SCs]

I want a mod for a people that are bored with many late-game aspects, nations blending into the same mix of summons and only same things used. There are way too many games ending in draws or with people disappearing because they no longer want to handle all that late game mess.

Trumanator:
I have Summoning Circle in one and my whole game now is centred around that. That site should not exist. Imagine Mictlan having it.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

O I can imagine the insanity, and I agree that on balance it and similar sites warp the gameplay. I'm just expressing my love for it at this particular juncture.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Then can I ask for more national summons, rather than adding more generic summons for various paths of magic.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

If it was so easy... I'd really like to see some more national summons, but making them is another story. If there was someone willing to do graphics, I could work on smth [with Burnsaber and Zlefin maybe :)].

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

I agree to most points, but I think removing them would unbalance the game even more.
...

...
I'm not that experience but it doesn't look like the strongest nations (Hinnom, Niefel, Caelum, Formoria for EA, Pangea for MA, Ermor for LA) can use them. Sauro and Pythium can iirc, but they are very strong overall afaik. LA R'lyeh can too but they had a big nerf.

So if gem generators are so strong that you will want to use them, and only weaker nations can forge them en masse, you are now removing the strongest strategy those nations have...

If I'm wrong and everyone just forges them with indie mages then why not just change the boosters/indies so that they cannot forge them?
Then you'd either take a nation who can or pay for a god who can.

Micro could be cut down a lot if instead of forging them you would summon them as creatures. Just CTRL-M once.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

My thug mod does not yet exist. Actually it's about 90% done, but I'm completely paralyzed by my thesis. In a month or two it will be out.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

I'll just shamelessly advertise:

Unsanity, an MP game I've just posted, is using a bunch of the mods under discussion here. If Zeldor's mod idea interests you, the game might be worth a look.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Illuminated One:

Clam hoarding should never be a strategy. There are games that go really insane with that. When you find const discount site you can even empower mages to make clams. I know a situation when one player had almost 200 clams and was wishing for gems to make even more clams per turn. And you have turtling, turtling and hidden gem income, requirings lots of micro. You could use W and N gems for some normal stuff now. And don't be afraid of some Armageddon spam or Seraph hordes.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

const12 items that could be used are:

Crown of Katafagus
Crown of Ptah
Greenstone Armor
Hammer of the Cyclops
Precious
Robe of Sorceress
Shortsword
Sun Armor
Sun Helmet
Sun Shield
Sun Sword
The Admiral's Sword
Vial of Frozen Tears

Descriptions here:
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Categ...ble_magic_item

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Why shouldn't it be a strategy?
Strengthening your economy is certainly a strategy, working towards a powerful global (Arcane Nexus, Darkness, etc.) also. In my opinion dom3 puts to little emphasis on these matters.
Let's leave the sites out (and conquering everyone with +50% conjuration or blood bonus is certainly more unfair than clamming with 20% construction bonus) - 40 gems for two pearls is a fair price. How much gems do you spend to take a province with more than two gems income?
If the secret income or surprise effect is an issue, than that is a fault of the players imo. I always try to have the best knowledge of what everyone else can do and if I think someone is clamming or heading for utterdark I won't just ignore it. If I never see a water gem on the field from a nation with supposedly good water income, or notice that D9 bless, or that the Sceptre of Dark Regency is gone I have the chance to prepare. A much bigger chance than fending of that turn 5 niefel rush btw.
...
(I've never been on the receiving side of this, so I might underestimate their power, but just declaring them as unfair/invalid strategies goes much to far.)

Sorry, for the rant. I guess if I don't like the mod I don't have the use it, but I'd sure like something that reduces micro and don't want the game to be just decided when someone picks Hinnom.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Some nations could really use national summons(Marverni and Man for instance) to give the player something to do besides sweating through most of the game. Seeing as this would be a large undertaking, would it be possible to give these deficient nations a cheap national Gift of Reason spell, available early on, so at least they can bulk up with summoned thugs.

Marverni gets the right gems and mages to be a cracking forge nation, yet they really have nothing to forge for - armies of reasoned Trolls and the like would at least give them a competitive leg up and would be damn fun to boot!

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

About these items in general, most seem like artifact power levels, but IMHO, there probably is enough benefit in reaching con8 first already. But this a good chance some to "fix" some less atractive path combinations. Fire/Air for example, has no forgeable items. Since we are also removing some items (the gem producers), we could use these to let those path combos have something to forge.

Crown of Katafagus - Clearly an artifact, could be a con6 thought. It's just a skull helmet on steroids.

Crown of Ptah - Now, this is intersting. Artifact? It's not *that* good thought so perhaps the pathcost could be like D4F3?

Greenstone Armor - This is just useless piece of poop. It has only slightly better protection than normal armor but encumberance 6! freaking 6! Only enc 0 units can use it then.. suggest you completely scrap the thing by modding the "Greenstone Armor" armor. It could be the "summit" of armors, something just so well made that it works like charm. The color is intresting though, perhaps this could ne N/W item to replace Clam?

Hammer of the Cyclops - Do we really need another artifact-level uber hammer? This probably could just stay con12.

Precious - Hmm.. I'd probably make it con6. By changing the description a bit, you probably could have this as F1N1 item to replace Fetish.

Robe of the Sorceress - Sorcery paths are pretty easy to boost already. Could be a semi-nice artifact thought. Blood/Earth artifact to replace blood stones?

Shortsword - This is an very interesting item. Good for human nations to leverage against Giants, should be low path cost and con cost to be easily accessible. Perhaps E1A1 con4?

About the "sun" gear. I think that one of these could be the F/A item (not all of them thought, that would be just nuts)

Sun Armor - Encumberance 5? It would be just another item only good on those already popular thugs with enc 0.

Sun Helmet - Wow. This is pretty damn good helmet. Should be an artifact most likely.

Sun Shield - Not that intresting. More like a Shield of Gleaming Gold with some bonuses. Probably only item that could be easily forgeablr from the sun gear

Sun Sword - Hmm.. This is intresting. The berserking is a real downer and balances this thing (no buffs, vulnerability to 50 turn limit, extra fatigue..). I think that this could be a intresting con6 F/A item. F3A1 perhaps?

Admiral's Sword - This is intresting too. The weapon is pretty good (12ap dam, att5, def2, len2, curses), could be a different piece of thug gear (not all those brands all the freaking time), not sure about what paths it should be and what cost.

Vial of Frozen Tears - This could only be an artifact, but do we really even need *more* death boosters? It's quite the boost-tastic path already.

Well, that is a bit more difficult than it seems. Even if we had the graphics we only have 136 spell slots left. Since modded spells can only be restricted to one nation this means that should I make a modded summon for Arco, I'd need to make three versions of it (one for each era) even if they are identical.

Thus, just creating two summons for each nation is simply impossible, just because of the spell limit (Which is already tight because of CPCS + Holy War).

But, luckily this isn't CBM. We can take stuff away from base game. There are some pretty rebundant spells ('Freezing Touch', anyone?) in the game. By writing over those, we could add some more spells.

I could perhaps be intrested in making summons. But we probably should save these for the nations which are clearly troubled.

About the graphics, there are ways over this. Since the mod will likely use nearly all spell-slots, it won't be compactible with modded nations. This means that we could use graphics straight out from already excisting mod nations without any possible confusion. You want to boost man*? How about we just give them a summon for some Eriu/ Tir' na' Og mage to diversify paths? No need for new graphic or even a new unit!

If people would just pick up on my "mod spritedump" - project, using mod graphics would just be a lot easier.

Holy crap! This is so awesome! There just are some nations can not be reedemed by changing the stuff the stuff they have. Let's take EA Oceania for example. They simply own everything underwater but cannot be taken seriously above water. It's kind of quirky balance and does not make for a intresting nation, I've never seen anyone willingly play them.

But do you know what is the last nail in the coffin? EA Oceania can only recruit turtle infantry & turtle chief in land castles.

Let that sink in for a while. No mages, not even stinky priests above water. Just indy-level light infantry. It's just so sad that you can't help but to laugh.

My solution: I'd give them non-amphibious human troops. Some primitive human tribes that are slighlty based on the tribal people on philippines which have made an alliance with the tritons. I have a nice book of myth lore in my house, I'll check on pacific tribal myths for some cool summon ideas. As a balancing measure, some troops could be made less ridicilious underwater (I'm looking at you, Knight of the Deep!)

Amen to that.

Althought it seems that some people don't really understand the consequenses of playing with a map with over 15 provinces per player and over 12 players. IMHO, I prefer games with <11 players.

Well, in my opinion dom3 is not a game about economy. That's why there are only 3 buildings. It is about pretenders samshing each others into the face. Clam spam + turtling does not make for an intresting game, since it removes interaction between players.

It also bugs me how far gem generators have gone from their orginal purpose (lessen the need to restock gems to marching army mages). They were meant for that, not to power your late-game into ridicilious levels. Whenever I clam, I feel like I'm abusing a bug or just exploiting in general. But perhaps that is just me.

Well, considering the range of changes this mod-pack will do, everyone will probably find something not to like about it. But try to not think about that one single chance, more about big picture.

* or perhaps just use the Ma man boost mod by that dude-whose-nick-I-can't-remember. Was it Xietor ot Tudjy?

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Yeah, most of that items would be const6 or const8. I also agree on hammer of the cyclops, we don't need 2, as they'd be probably grabbed by same player. Other stuff can be tweaked. Sun items look especially nice, good way to spend F gems on cool gear.

I was also thinking about getting summons in a way you suggested for some nations. They will take spell slots too though. Man indeed could use TNN mages/thugs as summons. That nation totally sucks and is now worse even than Ulm. There are more nations that could use summons from previous eras.

Also Ashdod balance mod could be added here. That is made first. Right now that cool nation is usually banned. They'd need some serious nerf, but they'd be playable. I was thinking about nerfind PD [is it possible?], changing heat to neutral or 1 [same question], making their forge bonus guys summons [mid-game, 40-50 gems], removing 3rd misc slot, making Zamzummites cap only.

And yeah, that was Xietor's MA Man mod. I don't think it was big enough, but it could surely be added, before we do some other serious modifications. It's way better than vanilla or CBM Man.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

I think adjusting PD for a nation is possible. Heat 1 would be more thematic than neutral temperature preference.

As for Zamzummites, I'd say punt the cost up a lot rather than have them cap-only. If they cost 300+, that'd be enough of a barrier to stop there being too many of them (until the late end of the game, when it's less of an issue I think). Rephaite sages are adequate battle mages for many purposes. Making the Talmai expensive summons would mean Adon became the thugs of choice most of the time, I guess. Until the sci-fi era of the late game, I guess you'd be forced to keep the few summoned Talmai you could afford back home forging. I sort of like the third misc. slot on the Talmai, as it feels thematic.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

They are just giants. It's not like they have one more magic pocket for additional bracers. And yeah, that 3rd slot is just for stacking E9 bless bug.

Zamzummites are almost SCs, they are at least very good thugs. If they were cap only you'd have to choose between Adon and Zamzummite. And it would be a fair choice to make. And you'd be still left with non-cap mages other nations can dream of.

Zamzummites would be still probably the strongest recruitable fighters in MA. Way better than Jotun cap-only giants or other weak thugs.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Taking provinces is merely a function of economy also. Clamming is not very interesting, but if you're stuck between a rock and a hard place it's better than just waiting or going kamikaze against neighbours you can't beat now.

It's unproblematic in midgame, everything else just keeps happening. I think the real reason for late game unfun is that attacking becomes very unrewarding.
Luck is a much larger factor than in midgame (maybe the largest), first spell and 50 round advantage, and 90% of your holdings can be replace by the first province you conquer with a 20 gem thug.
If I ended up with the largest income in late game I would just sit back without clams, my position doesn't get weaker.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Err.. that quote in your post is from me, not from Zeldor.

If you're stuck between the rock and the hard place, how about building forts+labs for more mages and research? Clamming isn't the only option to improve your position when you can't assault someone. Besides, clamming does not neccessarily mean that you have to turtle. You just have 1-3 mages doing clams and that is the extent of your resources. Strong nation is able to wage war and clam fine. Clamming isn't somehow more beneficial to nations in poor position.

You have a point about the late-game wars. Gold doesn't really mean anything, so provinces only really serve as buffers.

I get my late-game kicks from seeing all that epic stuff happening. Attacking is exciting for me, since I can't really be *that* sure about what I'll exactly be facing. But I really haven't played too much late games in MP. I could imagine that vets no longer experience that thrill, having seen everything all ready.

If you have largest income (you probably mean gem income, right?), you can also clam more than any other nation, giving you a theoretical timevantage (since the gems from the clams would allow you to clam even more). So your statement holds true even with clams in the picture.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Illuminated One:

If you can clam, he can clam too. And if he is stronger, he can clam more.

As Micah stated in Preponderance thread - late-game is longer and more challenging because general level of MP community is higher. Earlier vet could win even quite big games before real end game would happen. Now you can research all stuff on turns 30-40 and be far far away from seeing a victorious nation. So new tactics are appearing. And mass sick clamming is among them. I had 100 tartarians once. I had more than 500 mages more than once. I had over 50 forts. I was crazy clamming. All is ok, until it happens at once. And it does happen, if you want to win. And well, everyone plays to win.

Some people are surprised that Micah has 170 clams in one game and that he can make about 15 clams a turn. The sad thing is that it's quite common to see people making 10+ clams/turn from turn 60.

Re: Enhanced Gameplay Mod [project]
 

Sorry, messed up the names.

Sure that's right and clamming makes it probably worse late game.
I can't call myself a vet only got to something I'd call late game in two games, but all in all I had better battles midgame (killing a water queen in a pitched battle over a cap is more exciting than having the only teleporting thugs you can get killed by two water queens in a province your enemy doesn't care about). :D

Well, usually stronger position means more gold and more research in the long run, so no difference to clamming.
What I mean is that nation balancing doesn't necessarily mean that all nations fight equally well. In fact I'd find that boring.
Instead the weaker nations have or should have several options to outdo the warrior nations on the home front (access to clams, better research, cheaper and better castles, a good synergy with a global).
Hence the suggestion of removing indie mages. If you want a path adjust your strategy around it.


edit: @Zeldor

Yeah, I know what you mean.
Still, I don't think you're getting at the root of the problem by removing clams.