Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Hi, I'm playing a Long Campaign as the Japanese, starting in 1931. I've had major successes against the Nationalist Chinese forces during my first two engagements (two Decisive Victories).
Now I'm on the third engagement and have encountered a quite "hairy" situation. My force consists of 2 Infantry Companies and have an assortment of tanks and artillery in support.

My dear enemy, Nationalist China, seems to have atleast twice the number of Infantry Companies that I have.

1st Company is holding the right flank and together with elements of the 2nd Company; the center flank. The right flank is apparently where the main enemy attack takes place; hordes of enemy infantry. I've been trying to hold my ground, but the 1st Company's 1st and 2nd Platoons have almost been destroyed (desperately trying to hold their ground).

At the same time there seems to be another enemy company attacking between my center and left flank (taking out one of my platoons), so I don't really have any other forces to commit to the right flank.

Are there any great tactical advice on how to deal with this situation? And how do you really handle massive hordes of infantry attacking?

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

The Nationalists will likely have twice your infantry, since they are cheap and of low experience and morale compared to yours.

Are they advancing? - they will then have more points than you if so.

"An assortment of tanks and artillery" - what exactly, since off-map arty and armour can be expensive. If you bought ammo bunkers to service your mortars - they are 200 odd points each.

"Hordes" of enemy low quality infantry can be held with a couple of MG and medium mortars - and every rifle coy should have about 2 MMG and 2 mortar tubes attached.

Simply receive the enemy with your riflemen at the halt, and a good field of fire for the MMG ahead of them. Dose their advance elements with MG and mortar fire, backed up by your riflemen on any that get within 500m. Direct your arty onto them as well - use your rifle company commander as spotter if no FOO nearby. After 3-4 turns of pounding then they should start to break. (You should have some scouts with weapons turned to range 1 ahead of your rifle line to spot them early).

You say you have some tanks - all you need against the Nationalists is Cupola MG fires from an armoured car or tankette or 2 in support of each rifle coy as they are bullet proof, provided you keep out of ATR range.

So stand still and form a firing line, pound them till they recoil and only then follow up. If they get frisky once again form the firing line and service them till they break and rinse and repeat.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Disengage. "Run away and live to fight another day." :)

Machineguns. And mortars.

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Probably should have mentioned it, it's an meeting engagement.
My assortment of artillery and tanks are two Platoons of Type 89's, 1 Platoon of Renault Type 87's, 1x 150mm Battery (O-B), Battalion 75mm Guns and a Strike Element (Aichi D1A).

I do have MG's and mortars actually pounding the h*** out of the main attack and they are all placed further back (so they are out of range). But there are simply too many squads firing at my troops, they have a huge advantage in firepower I would say. And to make things worse; a Platoon of FT-17's (MG) are also advancing on my position and the only thing standing in their way is a 75mm gun with half it's crew dead. My tanks are locked in combat on my center and left flank. Most of my Platoons are actually defending, and have done so for about 6-7 rounds now; but they just cannot stem the tide. The enemy squads have also had too many lucky shots at my squads (which are in cover), pinning them and eventually forcing them to retreat.

My artillery has pounded them for 2 turns now, but the problem here is that it takes about 4.3 rounds before the shells starts dropping (yes, I'm using an FOO). In about another 3.5 rounds my D1A's will come swooping down, but I fear that it is to late for 1st Company.

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Oh, no sweat. I think I just might be able to stem the tide anyway ;)

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

It's a campaign so...
"smoke" your position
rally your troops
and get the hell out of there!!!

wulfir is right. :up:

You could consider other options if you had an "uncommited" reserve but it seems that your about to send in the cooks! :eek:

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

2 platoons of Type 89's are likely worth 2 companies of Nationalist infantry, maybe a batallion.

The strike element is rather worthless - air is only useful against armour IMHO, and then in quantity (5-6 flights worth of typhoons, say). It is an expensive way to do recce.

You have allocated the entire artillery resources of the division, for a measly 2 rifle companies!. That will be where the AI is getting the points for a battalion(+) of more grunts. [Try a stand alone battle purchase of your support toys only. Note the cost. Now open up a stand alone battle as Nat China and see what those points would buy him in rifle companies]


2 rifle companies would justify:
- 2 /3 HMG barrels each coy (as singles or a section)
- 2/3 70mm Mortar tubes each coy
- 2 or 3 snipers or scouts per company
- A tankette or armoured car section per coy
- a towed 37/47mm ATG section per coy

+ 2 thirds of the battalion's 70mm infantry guns/90mm mortars
+ 1 battery of 75mm/105mm for the entire force
+ a medium/light tank platoon (Japanese armour is rare)

You have overbought expensive support weaponry while neglecting your front line grunts against an enemy that relies on cheap hordes of riflemen. Your few guys will likely melt away before the support arty has had the required time to kill all the hordes of Chinese grunts.

A battalion is 3 companies (possibly 4 in Japanese service).
- Ditch the expensive support toys
- Buy a third rifle company group (Rifle coy with mortar section + MMG section), possibly a fourth. That gives you the reserve troops you are lacking!. Advance 2 companies up, one or 2 trailing in reserve.
- Buy the battalion support group (4(?) 70/5mm inf guns platoon, 4 or 6 90mm mortars platoon, 4/6 37mm towed ATG in 2 sections, 4/6 AAMG platoon, MMG platoon)
- Buy a section of scouts per rifle coy, if they don't have integral scouts
- Buy a section of 2 snipers per coy. (Good for killing any MMG he has)

From division, have:
- a 75mm or 105mm off-map (or on map) battery of 4 tubes
- 2 platoons of tanks at the most, 1 more likely
- 2 sections of armoured cars (for the 3 or so MG they have) or the little MG only tankettes. Use as close support "tin pillboxes" with the lead rifle companies to hose down his infantry. Don't wander off doing recces with them - they will get ambushed.
- a few ammo trucks to support the mortars and infantry guns. (Bunkers cost 200+ points)

Use your towed ATG to deal with the few tanks the Nats will have, and the single tank platoon as a mobile fire base. Once the tank threat is dealt with the ATG can be used as additional infantry guns, from > 500 yards to fire direct HE support.

Andy

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Just did a quick and dirty check

Your support toys (tanks and arty) are worth about 1500 points (and if core will be worth more as the war progresses) - which relates to about 6 (six) KMT rifle coys at 256 points a pop (tested in in 1939). 2 battalions worth!.

And you have but 2 rifle coys on map...

You could have bought about 4 Type A rifle coys (with added MG and mortar section) for the exact same points expenditure. Four Japanese rifle companies(+) would deal with the 6 KMT ones with no great bother at all, methinks.

Andy

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

You have plenty of good points and advice. Going with only 2 Infantry companies is a preference; I don't usually like to play with larger forces than that. I usually play with just a company and an assortment of different supporting Platoons (usually strong artillery support), but as I said; that just what I prefer.

I come up with about 900 points for my support, but I get your point, it's to much. A KMT Infantry Company is 228 points, so my support is worth roughly 4 (!) Companies of KMT Infantry.

Thanks for the heads up, didn't really think it through much from the beginning, but I've learned something new. It's just because of my preference while playing battles, I usually don't spend all the points on troops (but I did this time).

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Another thing; the Type 89 Yi-Go has AP ammo but against the FT-17's and the Crossley A/C's I've encountered it only fires HE. I had to go up really close to be able to take the Crossley's out. Any explaination for this?

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

From memory it only has an AP shell with 2 or 3 penetration so at range HE is more effective at penetrating. Your tank crews are using the right shell for the job. If the gun is short ranged (cant remember) the AP penetration will fall of quickly at range.

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Ah yes the Chinese hordes. I remember these gentlemen fondly.

The only things I have to add are:

Your tanks are infantry support only and cannot kill beyond about 1 hex. Their HE is pretty good though. Use AT teams, ATG and close assault against opposing armour.

Light armour and cavalry can be used for flanking and going deep to clean up the Chinese artillery park and if you are very lucky, take out the Chinese commander. Beware of ATGs when using armour anything available to the Chines will kill you. AAMGs can give cavalry a nasty surprise as well.

Especially when you are receiving an advance or defending, try to define a couple of defensive lines. Let the hordes move to you, hit them hard, and when the pressure gets too much, pull back to the next line and repeat. Don't worry too much about killing the enemy, break as many as you can to overload their inadequate command structure. Once they are battered, you can move in for the kill.

Ammo wagons or trucks are very useful as you will find that even some of your infantry may be left with only grenades and a couple of rifle shots.

You will find my Japan campaign notes in the AAR thread - they'll give you an idea of what not to do. ;)

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

I'm playing a small campaign RusVchina in MBT '48 though.

And getting those Chinese hordes that keep coming even after i've them bombarded them unmercifully many times with my atry they regroup and come climbing over the craters again and again.

But they haven't dealt too much damage with their pitful tanks {all destroyed) and multiple useless ATR's and are slowly breaking.

Let them come.

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Low quality infantry can be suppressed very well by mortar fire.
Spread out your fire. The more units are suppressed, the more strain on the officers to rally, and the sooner they'll fail, leaving the grunts to rally on their own.

Keep machine guns around, but situated well in the rear. They tend to die a lot to rifle fire, it seems.

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Machine guns, like mortars and ATG are teams. So the crew are considered bunched together and occasional hits (esp direct fire hits) will kill extra over and above what riflemen would have received. (Polish and other 15+ man rifle sections are also penalised for being bunched up somewhat).


Andy

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

You can plot arty from the very beginning, with their tubes turned off. When the enemy shows up, turn their tubes back on. Thus you will have no delay. Later you can shift them with your spotter (much better if the spotter has LOS).

And I think the delay for arty is related to your FOO and arty's exp, AND the caliber (represented by WH) of your guns. So if your arty is 105mm PL or 75mm PL, they will drop much faster anyway.

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Gotcha. It always seemed they tended to get hit harder. Very nice info, thanks

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Very Interesting. Can you explain this a little better please? What do you mean by "you will have no delay"? AFAIK you´ll have the same delay but your tubes won´t fire, you mean you´´l have to keep switching targets?

Thanks in advance

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

That does much the same thing as a "gold Spot" but you have to leave your arty targeted on that hex. With the tubes turned off the mission will still count down but no rounds will be fired. When the enemy is on those target hexes you turn the barrels back on then press the bombard button and you will have a .01 delay. It simulates that the guns are targeted and loaded and ready to fire to those co-ordinates and are just waiting for the order to fire. The drawback to this is you cannot use the guns for any other mission when they are locked on to this target waiting ( hopefully ) for the enemy to get there. Basically it does the same things as firing at the hex then waiting for the enemy to make an appearance but without the loss of ammo


Don

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

It took me a while to figure this out to, but it works great.

Plot your artillary where you want it during deployment. This normally means it will fall before anybody goes. However, rather then letting it fall on nothing, before you quit deployment go into the bombardment menu, view the unit and click on all of the guns. This will turn them off so nothing will fire even though it's plotted.

Then comes the fun part. The battle has progressed to the point when the enemy has occupied the space wehre you plotted your artillary at the beginning of the game. Assuming that you have not replotted any of the guns, you will be able to click on the name of the unit and it will re-plot the units guns in the original hex with no deley. Since the gun was plotted there and then consiquensly never moved, it's a simple matter to just load a shell and pull the trigger. Just remember to turn the tubes/guns back on.

You can also plot your artillary in advance, then the turn before it comes in, if the enemy is not there, move it until the delay goes back up a turn or two. I do this a lot. It's a bit of a bear though because your spotter has to have good field of view to do it accuratly.

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Looks like Don is both faster and more consice with his explaination.

Makes total sense why he's in charge. :D

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Pretty useless vs a human still makes shell falling sound with no thud on ground & map centres on so you just go round it, shifting twice (more if LOS & use FOO) best option.

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Thanks guys!! very fast replies, I love this comunity!

I did know about this tactic, I just wanted to clarify what did rq mean by "no delay" maybe he was talking about something else I ignored.

I have a couple of more questions regarding arty plotting: when shifting arty pieces, specially mortars (or at least that´s what I remember) after firing some there´s one tube in the formation that gets more delay than the others in that formation for the next fire mission, what´s this due to?

other thing is: is there a limit of fire missions when performing the "rolling barrage" tactic? I ask because I remember I can peform it up to certain limit of fires, after which delay turns back again to it´s initial delay number.

Thanks in advance

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

:confused: I´ve done some tests and for some reason I haven´t been able to pull it off, I cancel the tube´s weapon just as explained, I can hear the tube firing and the screen centers at the landing spot, no visible shell landing but next turn I get the (3.1) orginal delay again, I´ve tried shifting before firing and with no shift at all, tried also with turn 0 and in game bombarments and get the same result, so I´m missing something here? I remember having done it some years ago but now I´m not sure how.

I rephrase my previous questions:

1.- When shifting fire from arty pieces, after firing there´s one tube in the formation that gets more delay than the others in that formation for the next fire mission, what´s this due to?

2.- Is there a limit of fire missions when performing the "rolling barrage" tactic? I can peform it up to a couple of fires, after that, delay turns back again to it´s initial number.

3.- After firing I get targeted hexes that aren´t related to any unit in my bombarment screen. (this one I have some time wondering about I´ve asumed it´s due to some delay within the formation?)

Thanks in advance

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Nevermind! I got it figured out already, thanks Seabolt!!

Keep Cool

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

That & some nice background info he throws out now & again plus perservering with this game its grown into a bit of a beast.

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

..........and you just told any human opponent how to fake you out and channel you into a kill zone........ :)


Don

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

I used to have great spidy sense with regards to where it falls, surprisingly since the patch not so much. Could this be the onset of senility

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Sorry for late reply. I was busy fighting the Japanese in Guadalcanal. Almost overrun by them. Thanks to Don & Ketch.

If the arty is plotted on hot spot, the delay is 1.0 turn. Using the tactic mentioned, the delay will be 0.0 (e.g., AI shows up when delay falls to 0) or 0.1 turn. That is no delay (0.0 or 0.1). Of course it will only fire in the next turn. That is the best you can get.

Or you can shift arty with your FO when the delay goes down to 0~0.5 (delay of 0.5 or below means it will fire next turn). No need to turn off tubes and no sound if this way is used.

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Ironfist, what do you mean by "hot spot?" I can think of various interpretations to that. If it is in regard to the pre-plotted points that I've seen in scenarios, then I have couple of questions...

1 - Can you set those up during a generated battle, or do they have to be built into a scenario?

2 - If they can be set up in a generated battle, how do you do it? (I've been through the Game Guide under artillary and haven't seen this. I could be blind. I could have forgotten. I could be very much wrong.)

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

As a bat
When deploy open bombard screen down where the button is for next page or spotters is one called priority target hexes thats your gold spots

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Thank you Imp! You're a life saver. I'll check this out and if I don't have it, I'll understand that to mean that only CD users can do it. If I do....WAHOO!!!!

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

WAHOO it is then ;)

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

He's talking about a "priority target hex" and they are placed while deploying and the amount you get depends a lot on how many arty observers you have

Don

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

It's mentioned in the Game Guide, under section "Artillery Bombardment Screens"

Re: Dealing with the Infantry Peril
 

Priority target hexes are available to everyone. They are NOT a " CD only " item


Don