Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM. Game Over. Noobs Triumph!
 

The vet team has conceded at turn 35. Send in your last turn (35) if you wish.

Congratulations to the victorious noob team.

On behalf of rdonj and myself, thanks to everyone for participating. Hope to see you all again soon in future games.

This is a team game and the final game in the Noobs vs. Vets trilogy.

This time around we continue our focus on magic research but with an added emphasis on somewhat larger armies and bigger battles as befitting the theme and storyline.

Disclaimer: Be forewared that this game concept is not for the timid or the faint of heart and is inherently unbalanced. If the prospect of going up against some of the best players in the game or of facing long odds makes you want to soil yourself or cry out for your mommy, then this game is not for you.

Settings:

Server: Llamaserver ................................. Era: Middle Age ............................... Mods: CBM 1.5
Magic Research: Easy ............................ Special Site Frequency: 40 ............ Indie strength: 4
Score Graphs: On ................................... HOF Entries: 15 .............................. Random Event Frequency: Common
Money, Resource, Supply Multiple: 150...Starting Provinces: 1........................Renaming: On

Game Administrators: Septimius Severus, rdonj.

Team Captains: melnorjr (Noobs), TheDemon (Vets).

Hosting interval: Quickhost. First 10 @ 32 hours, 8 hours added every 10 turns thereafter with the maximum to be decided by consensus.

Victory conditions: No vps/victory, annihilation of opposing team.

Treaties: Both teams will refrain from any hostile actions upon the other team's capital for a period of 5 turns from the start of the game.

Delays: Liberal. Automatically granted provided I receive a PM in time and you post on the thread as well to let everyone know, and there are no major objections.

Team makeup: Noobs will square off against Vets in a ratio equivalent to 2:1.

Qualifications: Noob starting players should be "fresh and green" with limited MP and SP experience (5 or less MP game participation). Vet starting players should either be hall of famers or have extensive MP and SP game experience. More experienced Noobs and less experienced Vets may opt for placement in an alternate slot. New to MP? Check out the Llamaserver FAQ

Alternates: Anyone joining as an alternate must provide an e-mail address on signup via PM and must be willing and available to sub on short notice if need be. Alternates may be selected to fill empty team slots prior to game start.

Team bonuses/privileges: Vets retain the right to veto/object to the participation of any player on either team on the grounds of too much/too little experience. Returning alternates from the previous game will receive priority in nation selection.

Team Forums: Forums for both teams have been created and are expected to be used. Failure to adequately maintain communication and coordination with fellow team members will result in your immediate replacement.

Noob Forum: Team Noob HQ
Vet Forum: Team Vet HQ

Map: Planet Rorschach (see attachment below). Starting locations will be manually placed and are available here: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...&postcount=364.

Nation Selection: Upon reaching at least the minimum recruitment level (18), nation selection will proceed via ordered list method (by popular demand). Each team will compose a list ranked in order of preference and nations will be awarded on an alternating basis with Noobs starting first. All starting players must be assigned a nation one way or another.

Noob Team.......................................Vet Team
Septimius Severus [Pangaea] ............. Lingchih [Ermor] :rip:
LumenPlacidum [Machaka]................. namad [Ashdod]
viccio [Abysia] .................................. TheDemon [Marignon]
melnorjr [Arcoscephale] ..................... Baalz [Eriu]
Hoplosternum [Bandar Log] ................ atul [Vanheim]
Squirrelloid [Shinuyama] .................... DrPraetorius [T'ien Ch'i]
Joelz [Ulm]
Hoplosternum [Jotunheim] .................. Alternates
Iainuki [Caelum] ................................ Hadrian II
Pelthin [Agartha] ............................... (Open)
TwoBits [Pythium] ............................. (Open)
Raiel [C'tis]

Alternates
Stretch
Skinu
LupusFatalis
(Open)
(Open)
(Open)

Thanks.
IMPERATORCAESARLVCIVSSEPTIVSSEVERVSPERTINAXAVGVSTV SPIVS

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

The story so far:

Mysterio could barely conceal his delight from his fellow vet pretender gods. The noob team was defeated, their armies scattered, their leaders killed or driven into exile, and their people forced into squalid servitude. But his revenge while sweet would prove to have a rather unpleasant aftertaste. Mysterio had sucessfuly avenged both the death of his beloved Mysteria and the vet team defeat which led to it, however, due to a miscalutation, Mysterio had no way of rejoining Mysteria nor of determining whether his goal of altering the past and preventing those terrible events from taking place in the future, had been achieved. Mysterio was now trapped in the past and had no way to return to his own time, for the arcane magicks he had used to enable his trip would not be developed for ages to come. He would have to wait. A long, long, long time....

It was a time of sorrow thoughout the whole of the world. For the realization of their defeat and the fear of their impending enslavement drove people everywhere into utter despair. Noob men tore their garments and beat their breasts in disgrace whilst noob women wailed and gnashed their teeth in terror. Unfortunately for the poor noob people, their vet masters turned out to be the cruelest of overseers. Mysterio was especially cruel (trapped as he was in this age), raping women and killing children without mercy. For many generations the noob nations toiled under the oppessive yoke of slavery. But pockets of resistance grew. They were especially strong in what remained of noob nations like Vanheim, Ermor, Mictlan, T'ien chi, and Sauromatia. Thoughout the land a great willing was heard; a growing yearning for freedom. Then one day an assassin of Vanheim murdered Mysterio and the pent-up anguish, misery, and rage of countless noob peoples exploded into a full blown rebellion. Not merely another uprising like so many before, this would be a revolution!!

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

To balance it a bit this time, I was considering allowing the vets to retain their advantages and just bump the n:v ratio up to 3:1. I think though that this may scare away even those vets with the gumption to participate in this sort of game, so perhaps it is best to just strip first choice from the vets and stick with 2:1. Suggestions?

If this is the case, then Likely nation selection will be first come, first serve as in the first game, with returning alternates of course having first dibs (a NvV tradition). Of those alternates returning priority would go to the vets (in other words Zeldor and Namad would be pretty much guaranteed their nation choice if they started). I like the alternating idea of one of the vets but I'm not sure how to work that out quickly and efficiently. Suggestions?

With regard to map it may depend on final number of signups but with 24 or so player goal, I'm looking at Balbarian's Aom Ogre Semi Rand or Glory of the Gods (orginal). Even Cleveland's Planet Rorschach is a possibility. Could also ban all water nations and add in some mod nations to prevent any premature hostilities. Suggestions?

Easy research I think should still be retained, though I do want there to be an emphasis on massive armies. To make this possible perhaps maxing out the starting resource and supply multiples. Suggestions?

Special site frequency will likely be scaled back to normal and random events (by popular request) will be common!

Mod nations would also be added if the vets retain first choice to prevent them from monopolizing all the power nations.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Could do something similar to what Gregstrom did with his Unsanity game, (ie. have people nominate nations and randomly assign from there). I don't know how many nations you're going for in this bout but it's a good way to keep things fair as people tend to be too cautious to nominate overly powerful nations.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

well all I know is I want to try Skaven in a MP game. perhaps with a nation I am atleast adequetely good with, or atleast in solo games. I'll be able to put up a fight this time

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

The NAP created a quite interesting situation. I think no matter the odds or nations, a vet will be able to expand at around twice the pace a noob will, as long as he doesn't have to worry about defense. Whether it benefits the game or not on a big map is probably up to debate. On a small map, I would keep it for sure.

Another consideration that I think hurt the noob team in the last game was the starting locations. Not that I want to fault you for them, but this game if they are preset the noob team should be spread over the same number of provs per player as the vet team. I seem to recall discussion on the vet IRC channel that the noob capitals were quite close and there was a big gap between the teams. Obviously its bad especially if you keep the NAP that any of your players get choked for territory early, especially by teammates.

On my alternating nation choice idea, probably the only efficient way would be to have each team work out a ranked list and submit it by PM to a neutral party (or the host). I mean, last game each team pretty much produced a list anyway, and since vets had priority we produced our list first then the noobs produced their list, which technically speaking takes twice the time.

One last thing, make sure you re-specify what counts as noob. Some of your players from the last two games have definitely graduated.

And finally I would have to think long and hard about my participation. I'm not sure I can handle the dedication to another team game.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Did you guys not like the thug/magic gamestyle we played? See the thing about massive armies is they can't be beat by attrition. It's about force multipliers and about figuring out how to do damage without taking losses. Force multipliers are things like Wailing Winds, Mass Protection, Body Ethereal, Flaming Arrows, Destruction, Storm, and Mass Flight (as Vanheim figured out last turn). As for causing disproportionate casualties, those EK/Yazad groups I used were all or nothing proposals. Either they wiped the floor with next to no casualties or I lose everything. The same goes for thug and SC combat. It doesn't matter how many men you swarm the Jarl with if he has enough reinvig, regen, and a cold aura. When they get close, they get stuck behind their frozen friends, then they get frozen themselves, then they get carved up. If you want to beat him, you have to hit him with something other than more men. That's what combat in Dominions is like. I don't think increasing the resource/supply/gold multipliers is going to change it. I doubt you'll get more than one or two of the vets fielding massive armies even with those changes.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

What vanilla nations are you familiar with?

So you mean that giant nations such as Hinnom don't have an edge when it comes to expansion? Assuming nation selection is not a factor then, why is it that vets can expand so fast vs indies, what's yer secret? heheh.
Part of this was due to the quirks of the map. I'm defintaely leaning toward some sort of symetrical evenly distributed map, which will make placement much easier and fairer for all. The distance between teams was intentional. Ideally I'd like it be around turn 20 before contact/hostilities break out. With water nations though, it makes it a bit more difficult. This will give noobs a chance to get some research and prevent the vet team behind overwhelmed by the noob early game numerical superiority as as happened in NvV I. Of course an NAP would have a similar effect.
Of course I will and vets will retain veto power as always. You may even disqualify me! :D But you wouldn't do that would ya?

The score is noobs:1 vets:1. This is meant to be the tie breaker. The deciding game.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

The resource and supply multiples are being considered as they fit in with the story and theme. Massive amounts of troops (think Spartacus) befitting a major slave uprising. Of course the vets would have the same benefit and giant nations would benefit of course.

In your example, yes, you make good points, assuming the massed troops attacking the Jarl are not immune to cold and or have other buffs. The good thing about Dom3 for every effect/spell there is a counter.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Concerning MA vanilla nations. Shinuyama and Man for which I have been quickly dispatched come MP games

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Sure, giant nations are easy to expand with. But if that's your reason, then how is it that Caelum, Helheim and Atlantis were able to keep pace? According to my turn 10 .trn, Niefel had 18, Atlantis had 19, Helheim had 21, Caelum had 22, and Hinnom had 24. My personal benchmark for a "usable" expansion strategy is 20 provs uncontested using default settings by turn 11 (late winter year 1). If I can't achieve that in a test game, I won't use that pretender build.

Ideally you want no pressure on the noobs early, that's true. I mean, its no fun to lose early. But to reach turn 20 without borders, you'd have to have like 40+ provs between each vet and the noob team, plus however many you think the noob will need. Under a normal sized map (15 provs per player), you're going to get borders on about turn 6 or so. I mean, you can force the first battle to delay until turn whatever with a NAP, but that doesn't change that during those 20 turns of "research" the vet team snaps up indies at a ridiculous rate, and also in turns 10 to 20 get a kick-start on their fort-building and research. It's conceivable that by turn 20 the vets would have a higher team total on every single graph except maybe army size. After this game I don't think you can dispute that a similar vet team is capable of that under a 20 turn NAP.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Rather than just talking about problems instead of solutions, let's talk a bit about actual settings. 24 players is a lot. There aren't even 24 MA nations (there are 23). Even with one or two of the more balanced mod nations, you'd be hard pressed to not include at least one water nation. I think a 2:1 ratio is best. Its proven fair in both games as the series is tied. Obviously the outcome of the games was determined by other settings or perhaps by the play of the players. So in that case, why not all 3 water nations, but two are noob and one is vet.

I will say one thing on playercount, 24 players can make for an extremely tedious game. 24 players necessitates a huge map and the micro on huge maps is extremely annoying, and the game will drag out far longer which also equates more micro. Not to mention larger teams are harder to coordinate. A better format might be two 4 vs 8 games. Of course, you seem quite set on 24 players, so if it appeals to you go ahead.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a NAP, just keep in mind the consequences.

Same goes for changing supply or resource settings. I would stay away from messing with gold as that can really screw a game up.

I think using some system to distribute "power nations" is probably best not only in terms of balance but also because you want both teams to have a decent spread of magic and strategy availability.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

I don't know. I'm kind of coming around to the idea of a large scale game for the final game of the series. Maybe 21 nations, so you could keep it even without adding in a mod nation to hit 24. It would be a grandiose game, but it is summertime now, and a lot of players have more free time.

I'm still not sure that I would play, and the idea of finding 7 vets to play seems a bit optimistic, since we had a hard time finding five for this last game.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Demon, yeah I was thinking of 2 water nations for the noobs and 1 for the vets using a 24 nations (1 mod nation if needed) that would even out to about 16:8 . 2 or those slots could be interchangable though depending on actual signups. so it could be 18:6 (slightly a bit more than 2:1) but still reasonable. I'll likely use a slot system for both starting nations and alternates. If all available slots cannot be filled we'd of course have to start with fewer.

To combat any expansion issues, I'll likely break up the noob team into informal groups of say 4 a piece, Northern, Eastern, Southern, and Western noobs. More spread out and arrange geographically.

Hmm, how can we enable the noobs to expand at the same rate as the vets (nation selection aside)?

My first thought was droping indy strengh all the way down, that way both sides could expand equally fast (though it would shorten the time before initial contact).

Another idea, and one that ties in with the large armies the noobs are supposed to be able to field, would be say to give the noobs favorable cap locations that would result in an initial bonus in terms of gold, resources, supplies etc. I think that prov neighbors has something to do with it (since the cap is a fortress). But other things such as farm provinces may effect this as well? Anyone know what province terrain types yield more resources, supplies, gold? This would enable the noobs to field larger initial armies and thus ease their expansions woes a bit.

AOM Ogre map which is built for 24 has some interesting placement possibilities and is rather symetrical. Cleveland's maps has fewer provinces and works well with 24 nations too. But I suppose actual player signups would determine which map we finally use. If we can get the full 24 then the aforemention maps might work very well, if not well a smaller map with a symertrical design will work fine too. I am definately shooting for the 24. Even if we've got to do alot of invites and advertising. :)

AOM Ogre has the benefit of being able to put a bit of water in between teams. In a game without water nations, that would I believe slow up the initial contact a bit.

AOM would be 24/416 = avg. 17 or so provinces per player.
Rorschacht would be 24/375 = 15 or so provinces per player.

Comments?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

I think part of my point was vets have the knowledge to quickly find or the endurance to test until they get a pretender build and army quantity + scripting strategy that works really well for whatever nation. That is, part of what makes a vet a vet is he is able to expand faster than a noob, generally speaking. Unless you remove indeps completely, you're not going to be able to avoid this. And if you did that, there would be no expansion strategy at all, and little to no pretender build strategy. Those are a massive part of Dominions strategy and should be included in the learning experience.

18:6 is literally 3:1 so saying its slightly a bit more than 2:1 is a bit off. 17:7 would make more sense.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

I'm not sure about this one. Dragging it out isn't going to help much... with 17 people we'll still almost definitely be saddled with people who either are basically non-participants, or with players that have absolutely terrible initial expansions (but who we're not allowed to just steamroll and absorb in a couple turns).

I'm not sure who from the noob side is interested in playing some more but I'd like to do more strategizing with the 6-7 other noobs who were active on the messageboards (counting rdonj and Grudgebringer in that) and play 4 or so vets. TheDemon said that some of them were getting pretty good... why not even the stakes a bit in terms of players per team and get us all on an equal playing field in terms of communication and having at least a basic idea of how to play the game.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

I wholeheartedly agree. Huge teams are just not that fun, and as you say there are bound to be non-participants. Also, I think finding enough vets for the huge game would be quite hard. Out of the five vets in the last game, I counted two that will probably not play in this one no matter the settings, and two (including myself) that would need some convincing.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

You raise a good point about potential non-participants. It's probably unavoidable that in any game of that size you'll have more people who are uncommunicative than you will in a smaller game. So it would be far easier to make a smaller game work out well. Septimius, what do you think about a little bit of a compromise. Go with the high resource/gold settings, or just start the noobs in much richer areas with perhaps some resource bonus sites (you could go with the idea that the uprisings are happening in slave camps, where workers are being forced to mine for the vets, something like that), but stay with a similar number of players to the last one. You would still get the massive uprising feeling, but keep the game more manageable at the same time.

I'm not sure if you recall or not stretch, but I wasn't playing this game except for two turns as fomoria to prevent stales :). I'll stick around since I'm admin of the noob forum anyway, although I was definitely starting to feel I was repeating myself towards the end there.... I might be interested in playing that game but it's not really noobs vs vets, is it? Perhaps graduate school :P If you like the idea you might have better luck organizing it on the side rather than making a noobs vs vets game out of it.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Oh, right, you have almost 1000 posts on this forum. Whoops. You certainly seemed to know what you were talking about on the noob forum, I was thinking 'damn, I wish this guy was around earlier'.

A smaller game would be something like

Rdonj, the great communicator, awakes from a long imprisonment to find the world a twisted shadow. Its dewy innocence has been plundered by the rampaging vets, and the noob races toil under the harsh yoke of slavery. As the years passed, two of the five lords of old grew sated with the spoils of war, and through dark rituals, transcended to another plane to search for the missing Pantokrator.

The remaining vets ponder their future as their depraved servants rule in their stead. They withdraw into their gleaming castles, and slowly the land returns to scattered fiefdoms ruled by independent barons. The taxes flow into the vet capitals, but their eyes turn towards the stars and they ponder following their two departed brethren.

Unbeknownst to them, the spirits of some old noob pretenders have found new hosts. They awaken to find the world hazy and indistinct, as many things have changed since last they roamed the world. They wait, poised to take a new capital from one of the many fiefdoms, and seek vengeance.

Will the noob menace force the vets to gaze once more upon this world, or will they follow their peers into the stars, leaving the battle to another seasoned warlord? What side will Rdonj lend his aid to? Have the noobs learned enough from their imprisonment to end the threat of vet tyranny once and for all?

Something to keep in mind if you don't get your full 16/7 complement, Septimus.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

have you thought about starting with more then 1 region

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Lol. I'm not that great, I am just good at absorbing information. But I don't count myself as a noob anymore, which is why I stayed out of noobs vs vets 2. Doesn't mean I don't still have, well, a lot of bad habits.

And I was around the entire time since I was doing a lot of the maintenance. I was providing advice most of the game, not so much early on though since you guys weren't really being that informative and I had no real idea how the game was going until I stepped in for fomoria. Reading the vet forum right now I'm getting a much better picture overall of the game. So I just chimed in when people were looking for ideas.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

That was a typo. 18:6 is 3:1 you are correct.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Stretch and QM:
We basically had the same noob team size in both NvV and NvV II (10). We didn't have any issues in the first game but had some bad luck in II. In addition to the informal expansion groups I mentioned, this time around any player not participating in the forum and coordinating with neigbors will be replaced. I'm not tolerating it anymore. So you guys needn't worry.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Never really considered it. It would tend to shorten the initial contact period I would think and apply to both noobs and vets alike. Unless there is a way to start just the noobs with 2 regions.

Giving the noobs good starting provinces (rivers, farms, etc.) would give an initial boost to the noobs and help even out the expansion gap. I'd like to see both teams expanding at even pace, whatever we can do to achieve this lets do it.

If the vets are against it though I might tie it into the story line and provide it as a bonus for those noobs and vets who take nations from NvV II (I.e. Vanheim, Ermor, Ashdod). Though I don't see why they would be.

I think first come, first serve nation selection is quickest and fairest. Just be quick and you get what you want. 2 phases (Alternates first) then the rest of us.
Keep those suggestions coming though.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

I was thinking of something like that too. After this game is finished and the trilogy is complete (and I can retire from admining). A post NvV game featuring noob graduates vs vets on an 1:1 basis. Rdonj could organize and admin as well as playing in it if so desired. Rdonj, Grudge, Lavaere, myself, Darloth are the only ones so far that have participated in the entire series so far. But pyg, or anyone else who had participated and feels they learned enough could also participate. If rdonj didn't want to I suppose I could come out of retirement to do so.

Good story writing btw Stretch. Heh. Slave revolts always involve massive numbers, that is the one thing they have on their side versus their masters.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Lumenplacidum was in both games as well. I'm on the fence about playing. On the one hand, it would be great fun. On the other hand, I'm trying to cut down on my dominions time and focus on other things so I really shouldn't. I'd have to see about it if/when we got there.

What if both teams submit a list, with nations in order of preference. The vet team gets their first pick. Then the noob team gets their first pick, unless it's the vet team's first pick, in which case they get their second pick. And so on. Or you could do it pretty much the same way, but organized by player and the player gets their first/second. You'd still be giving the nation picking advantage to the vet team, but the process would probably go faster and allow the noobs to deny the vets some of the tougher nations. You'd probably have to run the lists through a third party though, to prevent anyone from trying to game the system by making alterations based on the other teams list.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

each team makes a list. then we go down the lists. vets top choice, noobs top choice, and we keep alternating like that. if the nation is taken you go to there next pick down the list.
once the nations have been chosen this way. just hand them out to your members.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Has there been a decision as to the Age being played? I know we haven't done a Mid Era game, and I kind of want to try out one of those angel-summoning nations (lol, if I survive to that point).

As far as settings, any situation where we're throwing more resources and gold into the game is an advantage for the veteran players. Anyone can spend money, but the more you have, the more benefit you get if you spend it efficiently! It's much easier to manage your resources when inexperienced if those resources are relatively sparse. As such, I'm in favor of having standard gold and standard resources.

For nation picks, I think Lavaere's idea of having teams alternate picks is probably good. The vets will organize anyway, but it'll help the Noob team to try to decide how to cover the bases of what we can manage to do before the game starts, so that we end up actually having top picks in the first place.

Dropping magic site frequency is probably a good idea for the same reason as the gold/resources thing above, except that it's far easier to waste gems than gold.

Starting with more than one province is an interesting possibility. I'm not sure what the long-term effects of that would be except that they'd make nations with relatively expensive cap-only options have better starts with the initial gold boost that would fade away.

Regardless of the options, they all really need to be posted BEFORE any nation selections are made. We had some issues with that before.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Yeah, I'd really advice adhering to old programmers' paradigm, KISS (Keep It Simple).

The more strange variations you do, the more confusing it gets. The more things game manager loads for his team, the more prejudiced it appears. And so on. It has been shown that 2:1 ratio with standard settings has given results that depend on organization and co-operation of the teams, and that's what this kind of game should strive towards.

Vet team should have some advantage early on thanks to the huge outnumbering factor. First picks on nations is one of those, at least they can make sure they're not overtaken by early expanders so early in the game it hasn't even begun yet. If noobs get all extra resources and stuff you should give vets something too, like extra gem income. Not much use early on but nice to have at some point. Just an example. But easiest, most straightforward way would be just play it straight and not juggle any freebies around.

Oh, and one thing. If someone who places teams on the map plays for either team, the other team should have a say in where they are placed. Just for it to appear fair. We had some issues with that before, to quote a guy with good points in his post.

Yet I must disagree with lower magic site freq than usual. It just drops down the variety in the game, as some nations do depend on high magic while others go for steel.

But, if it's still intended as noobs vs vets, keep it simple. Mod nations and other nonstandard settings just make the game bizarre, not better.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Yeah dont go above 2:1. We won the last game and perhaps from the noob perspective it looked like we were steamrolling you. But the truth is that all of our offensives were balanced on a knife's edge. The only reason we werent wiped out was because we were organized and experienced.

And about balancing expansion: as Demon said, why would you want to do that? The ability to intelligently exploit the strengths of your nation and the weaknesses of certain indy's is a hallmark of experience. Don't overreact to the 2:1 land advantage the vets had because you have to remember that there were 2x as many noobs. The lands held by each team were basically the same.

Lastly, about the big armies: is your rationale for this only thematic? Cause building huge armies is actually bad training for noobs. Huge armies have a very short useful life in the early part of the game only.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Good suggestions by all of you. Sorry Lumen forgot about you for sec, and who could forget that awesome defense work you did in NvVI.

As usual there are many issues to tackle in arriving at settings that are fair to both sides. I can't make everybody happy, but I hope that everyone realizes that I have and will continue to strive to be as fair and impartial as possible.

Which is why I'm recommending a symetrical map this time around (not as pretty to look at) but nations can be placed at equal and even distances and so forth. I am a big fan or even numbers and order.

I don't want to come in at turn 10 and see a huge disparity in expansion and province totals. It is kinda like how you'd rather watch a sports game that is tied at the halfway mark, you know that their is excitement ahead rather than getting the feeling it's already over.

While I believe yes, the vets experience should account for a somewhat quicker expansion pace, we should take care that the vets don't have first pick at all the power nations to insure that this expansion gap doesn't get out of hand. Do you guys get where I'm coming from?

Hence my suggestion of giving the noobs nations a bit of a boost in their cap. This will be especially important if the vets recieve first choice, in some form or fashion. If we create lists to alternate between would the noob nations know how best to fashion theirs?

QM, what is the lastest version of CBM?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

CBM is at version 1.5.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

i think having noobs play mod nations is not within the spirit of the word noob.

it would be INSANE to jack resources up.... it would just cause EVERYONE to take sloth3 even nations who usually don't... the reason people don't use massive armies is just because of what thedemon said... massive armies isn't a good tactic!

i'm willing to play provided the game is setup reasonably and at least some of the vets return to play (i remember a few saying they might not agree to play given your drastic changes in game setting)

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

The main post is being updated. Everyone, please refer to it for the current status of proposed settings. It is your one-stop location for most things pertaining to the game.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

also just by definition...

first come first serve is the LEAST fair system of distributing nations.... ... seriously there is literally no system that is less fair than this system in any way at all




it is however the fairest system of distributing TICKETS to real life events... as the date of the ticket sales is posted well in advance... however... many places have begun having lotteries to determine the order in which a person can try to buy tickets for real life events


in fact if you went with first come first serve i might refuse to play just on principle of a person thinking this system was in some way fair

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

I think taking first choice from the vets would be fine, as long as they don't get stuck with last choice either. Probably the most balanced is alternating choice, but noobs get first pick. If the ordered list method is too clunky, you could pick team captains and let them call nations. Obviously this would be according to whatever private discussions among the team, but the point is to have only one really active person calling picks so they go quickly.

On cap-specific terrain modifiers, that isn't going to work, I don't think you can mod the terrain of a cap in a way that affects its gold or resources. If you really wanted you could mod the provs surrounding the cap to have a higher population. I'm not too sure on the details. Higher pop will mean more gold/resources. Personally I'm not sure a terrain boost is necessary, but I think the vets can play around it as long as they aren't terrain nerfed.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Hmm, don't provinces with rivers, farms, mountains get bonuses? The editor I know provides a way to add them and they can be added I beleive via the text file.

If a starting province has two land neighbors vs a province with three land neightbors, will the one with three neighbors have a gold bonus? Lets see if we can get answers to these questions.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

That is workable, not the quickest way, but workable, though I think that the noobs should go first. I am concerned though: Will we be as good at fashioning this list as the vets, in order to achieve our goals?
And what of the alternate first choice benefit, should this ordered list be done after an returning alternates get their picks? or should we drop the alternate first choice entitlement all together. I like to keep it as a way of rewarding alternates who may not have gotten a chance to play and as an enticement to play in this one, though I suppose it may not get used.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

i think that gold bonus from forts is only determined by admin and current province income

while the neighboring province effect you speak of is related to resources of adjacent provinces and admin

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

You can add more income and resources to capital by increasing its population.

Though Sept should define his notion of balance. At which point should vets be able to come even for it to be "balanced"? Or should they be constant underdogs?

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

You can also add starting sites to the capitol that would give bonii. You can have them give extra gold, gems, or resources to the cap province. For the record I don't think a boost is necessary either, I am just offering ideas as to how it could be done :).

I don't think it really matters if the noob team is as good at fashioning a list as the vets. Chances are trying to go for a perfect team setup to play against the vet team just would not work for a noob team. They would do better and have more fun playing nations that they know/want to play. Of course they would also do better if the vets didn't have all the high-powered nations for the era, which I think is probably the best way to nerf the vets in this game.

I am just a third-party follower of this series of games, but don't forget that giving a noob a nice chunky gold increase on his capital just means an extra bonus to the vet that takes it off him :D

Joking aside, my outsiders advice to the noobs is to get the SP practice games going, and learn to conquer Indy's with the minimum number of troops possible. Since that is where a large part of the vets advantage over the noobs occurs in the first 10-15 turns. Some of the nations with good sacreds only need 3-4 troops to expand with using the right bless, so sending an army of 20-30 of the same troops can sometimes translate into expanding 5 times slower than a vet would in the same circumstances.

For example, try MA Ermor with an S9 bless. Use an army of Thaumaturg + 4 Shadow Vestals + 4 cheap Tower Shielded arrow decoys. This costs about 300gp and will take out most Indys, and what is key is that it can be recruited every turn to maximise quick expansion.

This is just one quick example, and there are many more like this for practically any half decent bless nation. Even some of the non bless nations have tough enough troops to allow expansion with just minimum numbers (eg.Abysia). And the best way to learn them I find is through trial and error in SP games :) Since the first few turns of SP games are very similar to the first few turns of MP games. It's only after those first few turns that MP and SP games vary completely.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Very good information, true the right selection of troops (and Vets know all that stuff), is I'm sure more efficient at expanding than simply clobering the indies with numbers, though I am sure both will work. The noobs I am targeting though, have very little SP or MP experience working with the different units of each nation and the in's and out's of n4 bless versus a n8 (or is it n9) bless.

Personally, I have never really taken the time to experiment with such things. (I just recently learned that there is another level of bless beyond level 4!). Some noobs just pick units they like and use those to expand with. But I am noobs noob if ever there were one or a more casual player if you will. :D

I am glad we do have a fan base though. Lets keep the input coming, especially from outsiders.

I am going to try an experiment with terrain types and starting location income,etc. I'll post my results in a bit.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

It is either that or setting Indy strength = 0 or 1. Aside from the noobs getting smart all of a sudden, those are the only two measures I can think of to address this expansion gap. Choose your poison.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

what gap do you specifically mean? if you set indie strength=0 and give the noobs twice as many starting forts as the vets... the noobs will literally expand at twice the rate of the vets and by turn 6-8 or so will have double the vets income province count and gem score... is that what you are going for? additionally indie strength 0 will decrease the first turn on which conflict occurs dramatically... something you said you wanted to increase?

Namad, No I don't want the noobs to expand at double the pace of the vets merely to keep up as best as possible. Your right indie strength at 0 would result in a lightning fast game and quick conflict.

I've completed my tests. As mentioned terrain modifiers in the cap itself resulted in only a miniscule increase, it is also tied in to the graphics of the map, making a province a farm just doesn't mesh with the look (though it would work). I could locate the noobs in caps with lots of surrounding favorable provinces and neigbors but that might throw off my even placement scheme.

I think the best idea and most fair and consistent with the theme would be to just increase the population (as already suggested) in the cap's of the noobs to 50000 (the max I can set) which will give a slight bonus to the noobs to ease their expansion difficulties.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

as far as i can tell in game 1 the noobs expanded faster than the vets and in game two it was a dead tie?


you still haven't specifically explained what this gap is that you are talking about... i have no idea what you are referring to... making it hard for me to comment

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Noobs vs. Vets 2 was the optimal settings. You just did not have the placement to get all the noobs into the fight. Some kind of equidistant map would solve that.

Re: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM, Under Construction.
 

Well, I agree mostly to namad here the expansion rates were ok, maybe a slightly lower indie strength (4) is ok but 0 will easily result in a huge lead for the noob team and will destroy much strategy. 1st turn take 3 provs. 2nd turn take 3 provs and recruit 3 commanders. 3rd turn take 6 provs. etc.
However I don't think the settings were completely perfect. At turn 10 you were larger than us and all in all we were unable to go on offense after that. The game ended around turn 30. The ideal balance would be imo to give the noobs just that much advantage, that it goes on for 60 turns or so.
However if the initial nation pick advantage is gone this already has to count as a boost for the noob team.