OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.8!
 

Let's admit it. Vanilla Oceania is pretty boring nation to play. Both thematically and gameplay wise. Hence this mod.

It's now in early gametest phase, and I'm mostly looking to balance the costs of various new summons and recruitables. I'd also like to hear how people like the new themes. Do they make the nation more intresting? Or am I going too far from the vanilla themes?

The goal of this mod is to make Oceania desirable and balanced nation to play in both SP & MP.

http://xs540.xs.to/xs540/09234/oem184.jpeg

List of gameplay changes:
-- Land recruitables changed to new units.
-- Knights of the Deep got reduced stats and are now capitol only.
-- Triton Kings got H1
-- A2W1 Summoning spell for Selkie (mage A3W2N1 seducer on land, A1W2N3 animal spawning seal on water) and the Cursed Queen summon spell W5H1 (size 5, 100hp, W2N2 with 210% S/D and 100 W/N/E picks)
-- 1W1N & 2W2N land summons for ichtysatyrs and ichtycentaurs respectively.
-- The Flood national spells. A2W1 spell that gives mist & rain, W5A2 coming of the flood (very strong battlefield spell) and W4H1 "Will of the Kings" that sends Tidal Wave event.
-- 5 new heroes

New Themes
-- Triton Kings and their quest to flood the world and regain old glory
-- The tragedy of the Triton Queens
-- Meddlings of the Selkies in the affairs of Oceania
-- Mermen and their position in Oceanian Triton noble society
-- Mermen and their lives in their coastal villages

The current mod only changes EA Oceania. I'll make one for MA Oceania, but I'd first like to hear what people think about this one. Especially about thematic changes, since the MA version will likely be just stuff moved from this mod with thematic description changes.

Re: OEM - Ocenania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Was the selkie in water a w2n3 to avoid clam spamming, or was there alternate reasons?

Re: OEM - Ocenania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Not really. Oceanian nationals are so good at clamming that you don't have any reason to use a summon for it, besides, their seal forms lack hands for hammers. The change is mostly for thematic reasons, since the selkies cannot use their mist powers in water. Natural N3 is something that Oceania doesn't have access to, so that gives them a niche use underwater (But imho, they'll propably be above waves 95% of the time for that sweet air access).

Re: OEM - Ocenania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

At first look Burn, great job!

How about this edit for the triton queen:
"The Triton Queens once were the most beautiful of all sea-dwelling creatures, gifted with healing and future-seeing. Vain, and capricious they grew ever more licentious and ever more desirous of adulation and worship. When the known world groaned under the weight of their monstrous progeny, the Pantokrator decreed that evermore their outside appearance would mark their inner beauty. Horribly disfigured, the Triton Queens fled to the dark deeps, where they could not see their own disgusting forms. With malicious aeons spent in the deeps, they have taken up sorcery in their vain quest for redemption and revenge - to no avail. For even amputation fails; the curse persists until once more the queen reflects her heart. This Triton Queen has decided to serve the awakening god, hoping that he could lift the curse when he rises to the Throne of the World."

also, there is a persistent mispelling: ambiphibian should be amphibian

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Missed your edit.

The new description is pretty good, I'll bonder on it. I really didn't want to make the Queens bad guys, but I have a plot hole with the Pantakrator cursing the queens althought they weren't directly involved in the flooding plan.

I was aiming for Oceanian royals being extremely "noble", completely confident that they are destined rule all of ocean by some divine mandate and always acting the part. When they got hit by the nerf-stick by pantakrator, their pride took a very heavy blow. The event also kind made them lose the divine mandate to rule. That's why they're so hell-bent now to re-enact the flooding, defying the one who weakened them, to prove themselves to themselves and their subjects. I don't want to make Triton Kings totally evil with this flooding plan, they're more like.. misguided and think of all above water life as no more than some exotic animals. That's why the Queens left, their pride just couldn't stand them being watched with pity by their husbands and subjects.

And thanks for reporting the typo, will be fixed for the next version (which will be made after I hear about the costings of the summons).

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

See, I don't view the triton kings as evil at all - heroic and all that - fighting for the oceans that are theirs.

But the tragedy of the queensmakes sense why the tritons should turn to the selkies. And the circle turns full turn for now the triton kings are doing what the queens originally did mating with one outside their kind.

Plus my version of the curse doesn't make *all* the triton queens evil - if they change their hearts there is still room for the curse to be lifted - which sort of fits my vision of the pantokrator - ie., NGoodish.. getting rid of all the big evil nasties anyway.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Ok.. after playing with the mod here are my comments.

The selkies are cool, of course. However, there is very little reason to cast Trade for Iron, or contact kindred - yes, they have a slightly higher magic resistance - but its not worth a mage action.

Yes, you could use it while sieged - but still a very minimal use.

For it to be worthwhile, it has to add a capability that is really different than what oceania already has. So for example a halt sacred against bless, or a unit with very high magic resistance (maybe), or glamoured units.

Since d.o.s are stealthy you may wish to think of adding stealth.

I think giving the Daughters of selkie a seduction like a Siren
would make her awesome.

PD still uses turtle chiefs on land.

Overall, I find oceania so easy to expand and win with SP that its boring... but I don't think thats your mods fault.

Finally, the big evocation spell - is over the top strong. Liked the song of longing however.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Burnsaber:

I hope you are planning some Atlantis mod too, as using only Oceania one would be unbalanced. I just noticed that all Atlantis gets in land forts is Coral Priest [yeah, just H1 guy] and Reef Dweller. I assume that in non-coastal provs you get totally nothing.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Well, those lucky, lucky bastards. Proper little pretenders pets, those Atlantians. What EA R'lyeh wouldn't give to be able to recruit a Coral Priest or a Reef Dweller in a coastal fort!

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Well, when I made the Selkies meddle with the Triton Kings,I was mostly thinking of this. The Selkies are lonely and going extinct. The Triton Kings are lonely and the have their royal blood going extinct. They have all the reasons to seek out each other. But alas, they have nothing in common besides that, hence it's not working out that well. Both parties didn't get what they wanted. Selkies love their daughters, but they're much more restrained than their mothers (and they're not actually Selkies, so the Selkie race is still going to die out). The Sons are fine warriors, but have their mothers free spirit, and do not make for fine lords and nobles. It's a kind of farce really. Ugh, I have all these ideas I want to convey through the description texts, but I'm constantly running out of description space.

But I like your idea about pride being the undoing of the Queens. I'll likely inculde your description with slight alterations. It also explains why the Queen hero isn't affected. He's a compassionate soul, not placing himself above other creation.

Well, trade for Iron was meant to give you access to heavy frontline troops that will not perish to simple archers like turtel warriors and wave lords. Giving them as a summon is a bit random, but since I can't mod recruitment lists *shrug*. I was thinking about making the Wave Knights be the land recruitable and make the sons summons. Might make more sense, "Call to Arms", so to speak. Hmm. Actually, I'm liking this better, there probably isn't so many Sons to begin with to justify them as recruitable troops any way. The Call Kindred are mostly there for thematic reasons, since I really hate way how EA Oceania suddenly tronsforms from the triton rule to capricorn rule. Where were those ichtysatyr hordes anyway? Hiding behind some kelp bush? The ichtycentaur spell might be useful for some fast flankers.

Stealth. Hmm. The regular mermen could be stealthy (to give them a niche), since they have experience about hiding from humans.

About daughters? You probably mean their underwater forms? Hmm. Don't know. Can't really see the need. They're just there to give you access to reasonable land mages, that is enough of a purpose for me. Your underwater raiding access is pretty good already.

the PD turtle chief? I see no problem in that. Giving them a daughter of selkie at 1PD is pretty unreasonable, very few nations get a mage even at 20.

About the Coming of the Flood. I'll probably have to reduce the number elementals by a notch (50%?)

About Song of Longing. What can I say? I'm just a hopeless romantic.

?

Really? I thought the sucky land recruits was an oceanian thing. I'll probably have to expand this a bit then. The Underwater Gameplay Enchanment Mod, which is something like this mod, but for all underwater nations + UW combat spells + some other changes (the Kelp Castle site has to go, for example. I've never seen one site warp the game so much). But I'll make a own thread for it, once I've collected my thoughts about this.

What does EA R'lyeh get? I know the MA R'lyeh gets some sucky hybrid troops but at least they're workable.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

LA R'lyeh gets crap, and it gets nothing in non-coastal provs. I was surprised that MA ATlantis does not get anything either. They are all amphibian after all, so they should be able to colonise land and live there [well, all those with "deep" in the name could stay uw only].

You are lucky bastard, I didn't get a single Kelp Fortress in Faerun. That's just not cool. BTW, I think there should exist forts with higher admin uw. Does any nation have anything over 10-20 admin? Except cap that is.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Isn't the point, though, that while all water nations have poor recruiting on land, the other two are nonetheless powerful on land, while Oceania are feeble? So there is probably no need to do anything to the recruits for the others.

I think people have different ideas as to what this mod is trying to achieve. The way I see it, the current situation is that Oceania are the strongest in the water, and the weakest on land. Although this may have seemed like an interesting idea to KO, in fact it just means that Oceania easily conquer the seas and then are stuck and have a boring game. This mods seeks to strengthen Oceania on land while weakening them a bit in the sea. In the process it gets to greatly add to the thematic depth of the nation. Seems just perfect to me.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

EA R'lyeh gets nothing in forts above ground, coastal or otherwise. Just the independent recruitables.

Mind Lords (with a fish amulet) and slave mage communions make them better than EA Oceania on land, I've got to admit.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

By the way, somewhere in the docs, you said the daughters of selkies had seduction.. but they don't. Intended? I think if they had it - similar to sirens that D.O.S would be a great unit.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Er, yeah. I really shouldn't post after midnight. EA Atlantis has pretty good melee troops and R'lyeh has heavy astral (which can do pretty much everything), they're quite fine. Thematically, they're a lot more intresting too, no need the deepen their thematic depths.

However, the idea of expanding this mod a bit isn't necessarily a bad one. I could easily expand this mod to cover some issues underwater combat has in general in EA.

EA Issues:
- Oceania owns all with free Kelp Castles and Knights of the Deep
fix: Kelp Castle to uncommon site and KotD nerfs
- EA Atlantis has no shots against either R'lyeh (all troops under mr 11!) nor anything that could hit Knights of the Deeps in melee
fix: Increase mr on some troops (coral guard?) and/or a national antimagic (h3/h2 with limited AoE, perhaps?), the KotD nerf should even out their match-up with Oceania.
- IIRC, if I recall correctly, both EA R'lyeh and EA Atlantis lack heroes. I actually have one made for both already (for a update to WH that apparently never was to manifest, but it's okay) and I was thinking of making a Traitor Queen hero that would be accessible to both of them.

I can't recall saying that. But, I dunno. I really see no reason for it. The Daughters are a must-recruit-every-turn-if-able unit already (to get A2 ones for lighting spam, and they also can get some combinations of magic you can't access otherwise, like E and A on same mage for Scultata Voluntrus & buffed Rain of Stones) and that 10% random opens up for some sweet "luck-outs" (E2! A3!)

Have you gotten any of the heroes? I'd like to hear your opinions about them. There is a bit of commented out code in .dm file to make them recruitable if you want to view them all quickly. (remember to also read the Selkie heroines underwater form description)

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

The graphics finally showed up, Burnsaber--they look great!

I also like your idea of the "tragedy of the queens". Personally, if it were me, I'd have the Queens be "involved" with the Pantokrator, possibly as his concubines? I think of the Pantokrator as the ultimate evil, myself, so in my mind he compelled them to love him through divine means. And ofcourse he also cursed them to lose their beauty and become hideous if they ever bestowed their favors on anyone else. Naturally, they loved the Triton Kings on sight--atleast they did when the Pantokrator's hold over them was finally broken--but by that time, the Kings had fooled around with other beings, out of sheer loneliness/frustration.


I have to strongly disagree about R'lyeh being fine, in any way, shape, or form, however. Not only are they not terribly interesting (sorry, but this is especially egregious, considering they're the most alien and evil Nation in the game, in my opinion), they're atleast extraordinarily difficult to use, if not underpowered.

Not that the ideas behind them are *bad*, and they're certainly fun to play, it's just that to play them competitively in MP (has anyone won a major MP game with them yet?), you have to sacrifice everything that makes them interesting.

If any Nation in the game should have summonables, I think it should be R'lyeh, the Nation based on a story cycle that pretty much revolved around the mysterious appearance-most typically by summoning-of alien entities. MA and LA already have plenty of that, but EA just doesn't really stand out. Nor does it tie in to the MA/LA Nations, so it might as well not be called 'R'lyeh' in the first place.

At the very least, they deserve more heroes. The one they have is nice, but there's 5 more slots available to be filled with all sorts of uniquely squamous alien abominations, and 6 slots for shudderingly bizarre multiheroes.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Burnsaber:

Yeah, I think your ideas for other uw nations are good. I think that Atlantis could get some more troops recruitable in coastal forts, for example Coral Guards and H2 priests. Some lame weak mage would be cool too [for every uw nation in coastal forts], but they don't have anything, huh. Mages of the Deep are really pricey too. 260 gold for non-sacred guy with just 6 RP, ouch.
I don't know what was the real intention for Atlantis troops, but they are not cheap and are really really bad. QM's explanation that they get BKs so should accept unusable troops does not satisfy me.

And so many nations lack real heroes... that is really sad. I think you could safely just add stronger versions of their mages. So some super Queen [with H4-5 instead of H3, maybe with some N], some buffed Basalt King, Mage of the Deep with cool paths... another cool Basalt King... Niefel gets some uber Jarls as heroes, so it would be fine. I'd be tempted to play Atlantis again, with luck.

P.S. I don't think that QM will go far with CBM Extreme [if he makes it], he surely won't use modded nations etc. So we need to put in Enhanced Gameplay modpack. I hope you are willing to work on more nations, I can help as much as possible :) I could work on heroes maybe and descriptions? Well, we can talk on IRC, maybe today evening [same timezone].

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

I'd like to be kept involved on the game pak as well.

As for Atlantis however - no way you can totally own R'ylleh. Cleveland put together a convincing demonstration of same and has a post on here about how to use Atlantis to be R'ylleh.

Its a great rivalry - but if you don't show up for it - yeah Rylleh will beat you ever day.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

In any case, all joking and wingeing and moaning about R'lyeh aside, I really appreciate the beautiful work you've done here for Oceania, Burnsaber. Thanks!

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Yeah, you're doing great work, Burnsaber. Oceania has always been one of the least interesting Nations for me, but you've done a lot to turn that around.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Yeah, I tried a different extension. Glad to hear that it worked.

I view the Pantakrator as Deux ex Machina, a plot device, mostly. When you need an omnipotent being to do something, he's your entity. I haven't really tought about him being goodish or evilish. If I really need to deepen the Pantakrator, I usually imagine him as an old-testament type god. You know, being jealous and pissed off on his subjects mostly.

About your idea, I'm not sure if it fits with the vanilla vision of Pantakrator. It would give him too much personality, so to speak.

I have to agree that the coastal recruit thing is a real bummer. EA R'lyeh also has serious troubles getting on to land. I could make them overwrite MA R'lyeh so that I can give them 2 troop recruits and 2 commanders and make them spawn some troops in the coastal forts every turn. You seem like an expert on the subject of EA R'lyeh, so if you have any ideas, please feel free to suggest them.

I usually consider the nation okay on the hero front if they have at least 3 different heroes. But ideas are welcome. Remember my inability to work art from scrath, thought. I need a solid base to work my magic.

I admit that Coral Guards would make some sense. However, this land recruit thing isn't very moddable, so you're moslty stuck with 1 commander and 1 troop (althought I have to check what MA Atlantis gets). Althought I just got an idea. How about Coral Warriors, atlantians who have moved to land in order to escape constant Oceanian triton raids (reefs = shallow water = Oceanian territory) and Coral Shamans H1 with 100% W/S pick (perhaps 10% W/S/N).

I haven't really played EA Atlantis so much so I don't really know. At least they look usable, high hp, natural prot, several attacks.. Is there something I'm missing? If they're weak, couldn't you just could lower their cost?

I'm also not buying the BK explanation. Althought Niefelheim isn't the standing point of balanced nation: BKs << Jarls and Niefelheim has absolutely terrific (skinshifters, niefel giants) troops. I think that EA Atlantis could stand to have some usable troops.

Yeah, let's talk on IrC once I manage to haul my *** there. Been busy working currently.

I think that you have misread, no one here has said that Atlantis would beat R'lyeh all the time. All of Atlantian troops have mr 10 or lower, that's a massive weakness against R'lyeh and not overcome easily, especially if they decide to rush you.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

I'm saying it. Played properly, atlantis can beat R'lyeh.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Anything can happen, ofcourse, but are the two Nations reasonably balanced against one another?
This is a bigger issue than with land-based Nations, don't forget--there's little opportunity for the classic "dogpile strategy" that is so often brought up when balance issues between Nations are debated.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Problems with uw playing are:
1. It's a blitz game, mid and late game performance of a nation does not matter, as you have 2-3 provs between your caps and war is over withint 15 turns max. No room for fancy tactics, just brutal power + luck. So awake pretender + stronger troops. That's why Atlantis sucks [+ no N for them + pathetic magic diversity]
2. Temp scales don't matter, you just take Cold3, which is stupid.
3. Free forts for OCeania [no N for Atlantis, dunno about R'lyeh].
4. Extremely pathetic indie mages with almost no magic diversity, so you are stuck with paths from your pretender [and you usually need him awake, so much less].
5. Really low admin in forts, hard to make resource heavy troops [which usually suck anyway].
6. Too hard to get on land, too hard to get into water. It's liek 2 separate games, but one is without winner.
7. Too many nations have really really really really bad heroes. Does any water nation get anything decent? I think that some heroes should be totally removed or replaced with much stronger version [I think C'tis is best example, when 'hero' means just a weak guy with no magic and just Valor bonus].
8. Movement - some should really have mapmove 2 uw. Probably just a small part, but we all know that fish and squids can get really good speed. So Krakens could do so here too. And that stupid 'feature' of reduced movement for flying units uw.

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.7
 

Actually EA atlantis gets a really awesome hero. A BK with W3N2 and a forge bonus 25, so acess to N and an amazing clam forger (for better or for worse.) but in general, your right

Re: OEM - Oceania Enchanment mod v0.8!
 

Ok, updated version before I start working on the UWGEM (Underwater gameplay enchanment mod).

Changes
-- Wave knights are now your land recruits, they are elite heavy infantry with resource cost sliced in half (since their equipment is not forged, but traded for), but are more expensive to compensate.
-- Coming of the Flood now gives less elementals
-- Improved & typo fixed descriptions, especially on heroes.