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Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Formations 240-241-242: Rocket Bn, Rocket Bty and Rocket Pl
According to the "The Iraqi Army: Organization and Tactics" the towed MRLs (107mm Type 63 and the likes) were used in special “light batteries” composed by twelve launchers organized in three platoons with four launchers each. I therefore suggest the following changes Formation 242 be renamed “Rocket Sec” and have only two units Formation 241 be renamed “Rocket Pl” and have only four units Formation 240 be renamed “Rocket Bty” and have twelve MRL. Availability dates for this one would also be changed to 1/1960-4/2003 instead of current 1/1970-12/1981, which does not make sense. Such organization would also be more useful for gaming purposes in (who’s going to buy the 27 rocket launchers of the current bn anyway?) A towed and offboard version of the 152mm D-20 should be added, using the already available weapon n. 230 152mm D20 FH.. Unit 426 from and unit 177 from OOB 11 Russia can be used as templates. Availability dates: 1/1975-4/2003 Many sources and plenty of pictures like the following support its availability in the iraqi inventory. http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/imgs/d20.jpg Unit 97: 180mm S-23 FG Unit 181: 180mm S23 Pl Final availability date should be restricted to 12/1988. If they had them at all, none were probably available by OIF. They aren’t mentioned in many sources in first place and no pictures of it have emerged. The ordnance disposal reports have not turned up any 180mm ammo for them either despite the fact they are very comprehensive. I would guess that at a minimum there were not many of them to start with and they were used up well before 2003. EDIT Alternatively Formation 240 could have a 1/1970-4/2003 availability. But it should be available in the Iran-Iraq/GW1/OIF period and not stop at 1981. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Unit 90: 122mm Sddm FH
Unit 175: 122mm Sddm Pl. They should be deleted Those “Saddam” guns were just locally assembled D-30. Like a lot of things in Iraq they got the “Saddam” label but they actually were nothing of special. Currently in the game they have much greater range than the ordinary D-30, 215 vs 205 But the ordnance disposal reports have not turned up any 122mm (unlike others calibers) RAP or base bleed round that would warrant a D-30 clone with extra range. Formation 31: R Guards Wpn Co Formation 32: R Guards Wpn Co Formation 291: Mot Bn Sup't Co They should be deleted they do not match any known formation or any likely support allotment. Formation 316: Bde Hy Mor Co It could be deleted as redundant (others formations alredy cover thee use of the 160mm mortars adequately). |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Formation 165: Bde AA Company
It should be renamed “Bde SP AA Bn” or similar.Three SP SAM platoon, formation n. 175, should be added slots 6-7-8. Availability dates should be changed to 1/1978-4/2003 This formation would be used to represent the mixed SPAA/SP-SAM battalions used in the armored divisions. Unit 178: 155mm M114 Pl Initial availability date should be changed to to 1/1986 or similar. AFAIK the ones in service were captured from Iran. Picture should be changed to n. 12089 representing the towed gun. Formation 295: Inf Bde Rec Co Should be renamed Recon Plt + or similar and have a 4/2003 cutoff. Formation 296: Mech Bde Rec Co It should be deleted Formation 298: Arm Bde Rec Co It should have the formations in the slots 5-6-7 deleted and renamed Recon Plt (AT) "The Iraqi Army: Organization and Tactics" describes a recon platoon variant composed by two standard BRDMs and four SP-ATGM. 4/2003 cutoff should be applied |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Some units to be added
1) Unit 983 GSP Ferry from OOB 11 Russia 2) Unit 775 PTS-M from OOB 11 Russia Availability dates should be late 70’s, say 1/1978-4/2003. There are pictures showing them in iraqi service. Here for example a GSP ferrying an iraqi T-62 across a river during the Iran Iraq war: http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4263/senzanomeusr.png Another abandoned in a tank graveyard in Iraq: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdraide...n/photostream/ PTS-M abandoned in Iraq: http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3460/...bilonia317.jpg 3) Unit 52 Ferret Mk 1 from OOB 7 (Great Britain) Availability dates 1/1955-12/1970. It could be armed with weapon n. 29 .50 cal M2 AAMG Source: SIPRI 4) Unit n.2 Vickers Mk.6b from OOB 64 (Saudi Arabia). Availability dates 1/1946-12/1959 Armament should be the same from unit 280 Humber Mk III. Source : I found a picture of it and a brief description at http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-victor...ion-intro.html Though the website is not longer available I have seen pics of it elsewhere. I could track them down if you are interested. It seems the iraqis refurbished a number of Vickers light tanks abandoned by the british at the end of WW2 and put them in service postwar. At least one of them took part in the 1958 coup and was turned into a monument. 5) An antiaircraft machine gun using weapon n. 29 .50 cal M2 AAMG Availability date 1/1946-12/1960 This would be used to provide an antiaircraft machine gun before the arrival of the Zpu in 1959. As it is the only towed antiaircraft weapons available before that date are the 40mm Bofors. It seems common sense that some antiaircraft machine gun was available or could have been (mounting some available .50 cal on some custom made AA mount for example) in that timeframe if needed. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Formation 386:R/G SP-ATGM Pl
Formation 297: 3 SP ATGM Formation 185: SP-ATGM Pl Should have four units instead of three. As far I can gather from the “The Iraqi Army: Organization and Tactics” four SP-ATGM per platoon were the norm. Also formation 185 should get a 4/2003 cutoff. Units 159-160: MiG-29A They should be deleted. None would have been really available for tactical ground attack missions, because: 1)MIG-29A was an air to air version with only limited, dumb bombs only, strike capabilities 2)There were few of them at hand and those were earmarked for air defence. 3)There were several others dedicated strike planes available for ground attack. 4)Serviceability was poor, between 1991 and 2003 the MIG-23/25 did most of the air to air work as they were much easier to keep in service for the iraqi logistics. By accounts in 2003 only a couple of MIG-29s were still barely flyable. No way they would have been wasted for tactical strikes. Source Acig.org. Formation 141: Bombers Final availability date of this formation should be restricted to 4/2003 Most of the planes that might qualify as “level bombers” in the game were destroyed or otherwise eliminated during the Gulf War. 1)SU-24s, with only one exception, were destroyed or defected to Iran during the Gulf War. 2)TU-22s were already out of active service during the Gulf War and were all destroyed on the ground by coalition bombing. Only a single TU-16 was left in flyable condition betweeen the Gulf War and OIF. Source Acig.org. Unit 190: PC-7 It should be deleted. It is not suitable as level bomber. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Some notes on the border guards
Formation 28: Border Guard Co I would suggest it being restructured with a scout section (unit 450) in slot 2 and a MG section (formation 215) in slot 5. Final availability date would be 4/2003. Only formation 48 Border Guard Pl would be left after that date. During the Saddam era border guards were occasionally put together in large units for frontline combat against the kurdish insurrections and the iranians but after 2003 they would be deployed in platoon size strenght only. Unit 506: Border Guards Initial availability date should be pushed back to 1/1986 Unit 507-508: Border Guards They should be either deleted or rearmed, there would not have been BG-15 grenade launchers for them. One squad should be armed with AK-47/RPK/grenades Availability date 1/1986-12/2020 Sources: Iraq's Ground Forces: An Assessment http://www.foia.cia.gov Fleet Marine Force Reference Publication (FMFRP) 3-203, Lessons Learned: The Iran-Iraq War, Vol . I |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Some changes and tweaks for infantry units
A clone of unit 411 rifle section should be added It would be armed with weapon n.4 SKS Carbine in the first slot instead of the M.44 rifle . Availability date would be 1/1961-12/1975 SKS were available in substantial numbers in the 60’s to the iraqi army. Unit 411: Rifle Section Final availability date should be restricted to 12/1967 SKS were available in substantial numbers in the 60’s to the iraqi army. Unit 413: Rifle Section Initial availability date should be pushed back to 1/1980 PKM machine guns were a standard issue already in the 80’s Unit 414: Rifle Section Initial availability date could be pushed forward to 1/2010 LAWs are not issued to normal infantry yet. Unit 476: Mech Section The RPD should be replaced by PKM (weapon n.13) Availability dates should be changed to 1/1980-12/2020 The RPD was largely superceded by PKM/RPK by then. Unit 477: Mech Section The RPD should be replaced by PKM (weapon n.13) Availability date should be changed to 1/1990-4/2003 The RPD was largely superceded by PKM/RPK by then. Unit 488: Mech Section Availability date should be changed to 1/1990-4/2003, RPG-18 was not issued past 2003. Unit 476 would fill the formations after 4/2003 so it should not be a problem. Unit 502: Reserve Section Weapon n. 17 RKG-3M Grenade should be added in slot 4. RKG-3 series grenades were still issued as late as 1991 A clone of unit 502 with weapon n. 18 RPG-7 in slot 4 should be added with availability dates 1/1992-4/2003. After the downsizing of the army post 1991 there were apparently enough AK-47/LMGs/RPG-7 for basically everyone. A clone of unit 501 with weapon n.4 SKS Carbine in the first slot and weapon n. 17 RKG-3M in the fourth slot should be added with 1/1975-12/1986 as availability dates. Also Formation 344: ILAV Company The Strela SAM in slot 2 should be replaced by a scout section. No MANPAD have been issued to the iraqi army yet, nor such unit is planned to receive them. With the changes above the iraqi infantry units should be as close as possible to the real thing, especially for the 1958-2008timeframe, which is probably the most important one for wargaming purposes anyway. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Unit 64: YW 531 APC
Availability dates should be changed to 1/1982-12/2005 http://www.sinodefence.com/army/armour/type63.asp “The improved Type 63C (YW531C) was introduced in 1982 for export market. This variant uses a German-designed BF8L413F air-cooled diesel engine to replace the original indigenous liquid-cooled engine. The Type 63C was exported in significant numbers to Iraq, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh.” SIPRI also confirms the 1982 deliverey date, which is consistent with the timeframe for major arms trade between China and Iraq. Few of them have also been used by the new iraqi army, at least early on, though they have been probably replaced by now as far as I can tell. Also ground speed could be reduced from 23 to 22. 65 km/h is the maximum road speed quoted by most sources. Unit 282-602: Panhard AML 60 All AP and HEAT rounds should be deleted. Loadout should be changed to 53 HE rounds. Unit 282 could be deleted as redundant. I have done some research on the matter using tanknet, ordnance disposal reports and other sources. There were actually several different AML-60 configurations produced; some of the later ones did have a 60mm gun mortar capable of firing HEAT and kinetic rounds. Given the timeframe the iraqi ones were almost certainly early ones capable of firing only HE/Smoke/Illumination. http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.p...7995&hl=aml-60 Unit 289: MOWAG Availability dates should be changed to 1/1981-12/1998. Source SIPRI Unit 318: Panhard M3 VTT Initial availability date should be changed to to 1/1971 It should also be rearmed with weapon 67 7.62 PKM AAMG. According to SIPRI the first ones were supplied in 1971. Some have also been in service with the new iraqi army, see for example : http://www.longwarjournal.org/multim...-Equipment.pdf There are also picture of it in service in the new iraqi army. Unit 357: AUF-1 GCT Unit 179: 155mm GCT Pl Initial availability date should be changed to 1/1983 Source SIPRI. Unit 362: GAZ/107 SPA It availability dates could be changed from current 5/2003-12/2004 to 1/1980-4/2003 I have seen pictures of jeep mounted RR used for indirect fires during the Iran Iraq war. As an alternative it could be simply deleted. Unit 366: SA-3 Neva Vision rating should be dropped to 0 Unit 395: T-55u No idea if the iraqi had anything of the sort (meaning a tank with fake/absent main gun used as FO vehicle like some units in WW2) but it might be possible. I suggest initial availability date moved back to 1/1987 Unit 535: BMD-1 Initial availability date should be changed to 1/1981 Source: SIPRI Unit 545: BM-14-16 Final availability date should be restricted to 12/1991 or such. No 140mm rockets have been found in iraq after 2003, only 107mm ones. It was probably in use at some point but not anymore by the 2000s. Unit 554: Sajil-30 It should have 32 rockets in total, not 64. ROF should be adjusted accordingly as well. Unit 555: Sajil-40 ROF should be decreased to 8 Unit 575: T-34/85 CS Final availability date could be extended to 12/1986 Source: T-34-85 Medium Tank 1944-94 by Steven J. Zaloga The following units should be rearmed with weapon 67 7.62 PKM AAMG unit 216 BREM-1 unit 324 HMMWV unit 604 M901 ITV unit 643 Ain Jaria 1 |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Formation 42: Mech Sapper Pl
The BMP-1 APCs in the last threes slots are not available in 1965(platoon start date) I suggest them to be changed with unit 61 BTR-50PK or another class 25 APC. This way the platoon could be used throught its entire life. Unit 324: HMMWV It has 111 in the heat ammo slot. Probably 111 was entered in there instead of the sound slot where it would have been approapriate. Also survivability should be increased to 2 as it seems to be the norm for such vehicles. This would apply to unit 910 too. A clone of formation 19 Mech Weapons Pl should be added with unit 311 BTR-152 or another class 23 APC in slots 6-7-8 (it could be called “Mot Weapons Pl”). Availability date would be 2/1959-4/2003. In this way the the correct allotment of support weapons could be provided to units mounted on wheeled APCs. Source : "The Iraqi Army: Organization and Tactics" Formation 37: Mot Rifle Co(+) Final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003. Its component, formation 216 Motor MG Sec in slot 7, should be replaced with the above described Mot Weapons Pl |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Some notes on mountain units
Formations 100 : Mountain Co Formation 105: Mountain Pl They should have final availability date restricted to 4/2003. Unit 517: Mountain Sec Final availability date should be restricted to 12/1991 RPD machine guns were being superceded by PKM/RPK. Unit 520: Mountain Sec It should have the RPG-16D in slot 3 replaced with weapon n.18 RPG-7. Availability dates should be changed to 1/1980-4/2003 RPG-16D were pretty rare among iraqi forces. Unit 518-519: Mountain Sec They should be deleted. RPG-16D were pretty rare among iraqi forces and BG-15 grenade launchers were even more rare, if available at all. They would have been reserved for the special forces and in any case iraqi mountain units are described as using standard weapons in the available sources. To summarize the background. Iraqi army mountain infantry units ceased to exist during April 2003 along with the rest of the army. For a variety of political and military reasons the process of military reconstruction has not contemplated raising mountain infantry units until 2009. A couple of mountain infantry divisions, the 15th and 16th, are now being raised by transferring kurdish paramilitary under iraqi military command. This will probably lenghty and complicated and in in any case mountain infantry units will not, in all likelyhood, have the same company structure of the old army. Therefore I have suggested a 4/2003 cutoff. Sources: http://www.specialoperations.com/For...q/Mountain.htm http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/OOBpage5- IGFC-North.pdf And others. Some notes about artillery A clone of unit 536 AMX-10P could also be added. This new unit would be reclassed as class 57, renamed AMX-10 VLA and have 1/1983-4/2003 as availability dates. These vehicles were used as forward observers for the french supplied artillery systems (Unit 357 AUF-1 GCT). Source SIPRI, Acig.org Units 92 and 183: 5.5 Inch FG Final availability dates don’t match with unit 92 ending at 12/1989 and unit 183 at 12/1974 All sources do indeed point to it being already out of service by 1991 but an out of service date is a bit hard to pick. As a possible solution unit 92 final availability could be set to 12/1974, as it seems at least plausible for an out of service date. Units 85 and 170: 25 Pdr FG and 25pdr Platoon Final availability dates don’t match with unit 85 ending at 12/1960 and unit 170 at 12/1969. As a possible and plausible solution unit 85 final availability could be set to 12/1969 like for unit 170. Unit 299: ZU-23 AA-Gun Final availability date could be extended to 12/2020 They are still being used on fire support vehicles but they could be used dismounted if needed. Source: pictures |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
on the list......
Don |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Unit 68: BMP-2
1) It should be be reclassed as class 127 Gun APC (Tracked) 2) Initial availability date to be moved back to 1/1987 I have seen no indication that the relatively scarce BMP-2s were made available to the regular army in 2000. With the above changes it could play the role of the antipersonnel variant of unit 524. Unit 268 RPG-7 Team A clone of it should be added with the RKG-3M in slot 3 deleted. Unit 447: RG Sappers A clone of it should be added with the the flamethrower in slot 3 replaced by weapon n.13 7.62mm PKM LMG Formation 15: Amphib Tank Pl Final availability date should be changed to 4/2003. There were not amphibious tank left in service past that date. A few T-55/72/Type 69 were recovered and put back in service but no PT-76. The new iraqi military has shown no interest in amphibious tanks. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Some changes to the tanks of the T-55 series, mostly tweaks to bring them up to specs.
There will be a similar post about the T-72s some time down the road plus an other two-three posts about miscellaneous stuff. With those this OOB should be pretty much covered in its essentials. I will still write stuff but it is going to be more about nice to have things or if something new comes out on the current iraqi rearmament. Otherwise the basics will have been covered. Unit 12: Type 69-II I suggest a change in loadout 24 HE, 5 AP, 3 Sabot and 12 HEAT,. The tank is supposed to be able to carry 44 rounds according to chinese sources, given that the T-55 can carry 43 rounds that seems reasonable. The above mix would be more in line with known combat loads than a pure HE/HEAT loadout. Unit 16: T-54B It should be changed to a T-54A as that was the first version of T-54 supplied. That could be accomplished with the following modifications: 1)name changed to T-54A 2)reduction in stabilizer rating to 1 (see unit 7 T-54A in the russian OOB). 3)Replacing weapon n. 53 7.62 SGMT AAMG with weapon n. 54 12.7 DShK AAMG Icon could also be changed to n. 1466 or n.712, as those two are pretty much what the iraqis used for camo most of the time: plain desert tan or desert tan with green stripes. Unit 17-18-580 : T-54B Some changes to bring them up to specs: 1) FC ratings should be increased from 3 to 5 (see unit 8 T-54B in the russian OOB). 2) Weapon 53 7.62 SGMT AAMG should be replaced with weapon n. 54 12.7 DShK AAMG Unit 18 could have its icon changed to n. 1466 or n.712, as those two icons are pretty much what the iraqis used for camo most of the time: plain desert tan or desert tan with green stripes. Also HEAT load should be reduced from 12 to 8 and HE load increased to 16, as that would be more in line with known combat loads. Unit 19-615: T-55 It should have a BMG, weapon n. 61, added in slot 4. Basic T-55 retained the BMG, which was deleted in T-54A (See unit 9 of the russian OOB, also confirmed by other sources such as tank-net.org). Units 20-581-616-619: T-55A FC rating should be increased to 7 from current 5. (See unit 10 of the russian OOB). Unit 21: T-55 Enigma Some changes that could be implemented: 1) Rename it “Tyepe 69 Enigma” 2) the BMG in slot 4 should be deleted, as the MG hole would be covered by the appliquè armor panels anyway. http://data.primeportal.net/tanks/ad..._Enigma_04.jpg Source: http://data.primeportal.net 3) Weapon 53 7.62 SGMT AAMG in slot 3 should be replaced by weapon 54 12.7 DShK AAMG. 4) Range finder value should be increased to 22, consistent with Type 69 II values. 5) Night vision rating should be reduced to 20. The Enigma upgrade as fielded consisted only of the armor modules and better radios. No fire control upgrades or anything else beyond what the tank already had. It was applied indifferently to T-55 and Type 69 II, as well others T-54 derivates which were then parcelled out as command tanks. Alternatively the name and RF ratings could be left as they are and the FC rating reduced to 7 to bring it line with T-55A ratings, but I imagine the Type 69 II based variant would be more interesting for wargaming purposes. Some changes for the tank guns weapon 70 100mm D10T 55 HEAT penetration should be reduced from 38 to 28 It would represent BR-412B AP and BK-5 HEAT combination weapon 71 100mm D10T 60 AP penetration should be reduced from 21 to 19 It would represent BR-412B AP and BK-5M HEAT combination weapon 72 100mm D10T 69 Sabot penetration should be increased to 30 and Sabot Range to 90 It would represent BR-412D AP, BK-5M HEAT and BM-8 APDS combination. Weaponn n. 132 100mm D10S 44 and weapon n. 130 100mm D10T 77 can be left in its current form for the time being. I suggested the above changes on the basis of ammunition actually used by the iraqis 1) BR-412 AP round 2) BR-412B AP round 3) BR-412D AP round 4) BM-8 APDS 5) BK-5M HEAT 6) M69 HEAT 7) Clones of the above, HE. Also it seems likely 8) BM-21 APFSDS (in limited quantities) 9) BK-5 or similar vintage, expended by 2003, HEAT Sources for the above are mainly ordnance disposal reports and tank-net.org. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
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The basic T-55 was the only main varian without AAMG, as both the previous T-54s variants and the following T-55A had them (the Dshk had ceased to be considered useful against modern aircrafts and helicopters were not yet considered a major threat, plus the whole NBC issues). |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Unit 992 UAZ Jeep from russian OOB could be added.
1/1975-12/2020 as availability dates. http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/1...rmy001foru.jpg Source: www.armyrecognition.com Units 345-570: SU-100 They should be rearmed with weapon 54 12.7 DShK AAMG instead of weapon 56 14.5 KPV AAMG in slot 2. Units 346-571: SU-100M 1) Stabilizer rating should be reduced to 0, SU-100s did not get stabilizers in the postwar upgrades (Source tank-net.org ). Being assault guns stabilizer would have been a very odd choice for an upgrade anyway. 2) They should be rearmed with weapon 54 12.7 DShK AAMG instead of weapon 56 14.5 KPV AAMG in slot 2. 3) FC rating could be reduced to 3, there is no mention that sights were upgraded. Unit 284 Cascavel III A clone of it should be added with 1/2008-12/2020 as availability dates. Source: http://www.blackanthem.com/News/scit...les13820.shtml Units 785-786-787-788-789: Foreign Troops They could be renamed “Jihadist Team” Formation 173: SP-SAM Battery Formation 175: SP-SAM Platoon Unit 374: SA-6 Kub Unit 379: AMX-30 Roland Final availability date for all of the above should be changed to 4/2003. As I noted in the past SP SAMs went out of service in 2003, with captured ones being scrapped. A new SP-SAM Section using two units 46 Avenger HMMWV as template and with 1/2011-12/2020 as availability dates should be introduced instead. Avengers are used in sections of two. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../44-44/Ch1.htm Unit 215: M728 CEV It should be deleted. There were, until last year, talks about aquiring a very large stock of M60s from Greece and/or others suppliers which were getting rid of them. It was at least within the real of the possible that some M728s might have been thrown in as well. The M60 option would have made some sense but the iraqis seem to have settled for a slower build up of an Abrams based tank force, supplemented by T-72s and some residual T-55/Type 69. It is still possible that some M60s might be purchased to boost numbers (iraqi procurement is very fluid at the moment) so units 9-10 can be left but a rare, specialized and harder to mantain vehicle like the M728 will not be included in all likelyhood. They already have in service or on order several vehicles performing engineering functions (BREMs, M88s etc.). |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Another post on miscellaneous stuff.
Next one will be on the T-72s as stated previously. 1) Formation 185: SP-ATGM Pl (I mentioned previously it should get an additional unit per platoon as that was the organization according to The Iraqi Army: Organization and Tactics) 2) Formation 186: SP-ATGM Section 3) Unit 228: VCR/TT HOT Final availability date for all of the above should be changed to 4/2003. A new SP-ATGM Section using two units 604 M901 ITV as template and with 1/2011-12/2020 as availability dates should be introduced instead. Unit 265 M1045 TOW HMMWV from US OOB should be added. It would be armed with weapon n. 155 Improved TOW. 1/2011-12/2020as availability dates. So far the new iraqi has not aquired any ATGM (save some Hellfire for aircraft use) and it is not known what ATGM will be aquired. However huge numbers of HMMWVs are being handed down to the iraqi army. Even if eventually Milan or something else is bought HMMWV would probably be still used as launching platforms anyway so it could be rearmed later if necessary. Unit 750: <TOW Team It could be put back in. There were last year talks about purchasing some unspecified european ATGM but so far nothing has materialized. Had there been an emergency, say an iranian attack (pretty far fetched actually but still...) TOWs would have likely been the ATGM provided. Further it is at least possible that some will be handed down as the US withdraw, as that seem the intent with a lot of US equipment. Unit 985 BM-14-16 1) Weapon n. 202 140mm Rocket should be replaced with weapon n. 215 107mm Rocket 2) It should be renamed “107mm MRL” or something like that. 107mm rockets fired from improvised launchers were the basic staple of insurgents rocket attacks. 140mm rockets haven’t turned up in Iraq (not in significant quantities at any rate, compared to 107mm ones) Source: ordnace disposal reports and insurgent arms caches content descriptions. Unit 115 from the US OOB UH-1D Huey should be added. Availability dates 3/2005-12/2020 Armament should be changed to weapon n. 13 7.62mm PKM LMG http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6...1225412605.jpg Sources: http://www.milavia.net/airforces/iraq/iqaf.htm http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?op...369&Itemid=128 Unit 314: OT-64 SKOT-2A Initial availability date should be changed to 1/1976. While SIPRI does indeed list 1981 as delivery date I have recently found out about photographic evidence that it was already used in quantity at the very beginning of the Iran Iraq War and had been available for some time before. Exact year of first delivery is unclear but 1976 or so should be a good approximation, the vehicles were supplied during the 70’s apparently. I guess that the batch supplied in 1981 was for replacement/supplement rather than first delivery. Unit 359: Palmaria 1) Ammo load should be reduced to 30 HE rounds and no AP ones 2) Speed should be decreased from 32, way too high for such a vehicle, to 20 (quoted max speed is around 60km/h). 3) Crew could be increased from four to five 4) Hull front and hull side armor should be cut by half at least. These changes would also apply to the following units Unit n. 360 Palmaria in OOB 40 Libya Unit n. 373 Palmaria in OOB 61 Nigeria Sources: http://www.military-today.com/artillery/palmaria.htm Brassey’s enciclopedia of land forces and warfare by Franklin D. Margiotta Unit 831: Vulcan AA Gun It could be deleted. The US phased out its last ones in 1994 with only a small number left by that date according to Jane’s, there are not significant numbers left available that could be supplied to Iraq. Further, it was a limited usefulness weapon even when it was in its prime, it is questionable the iraqis would be interested in getting them now. Some ZU-23 and similar are alredy available for whatever limited antiaircraft guns needs may be (mostly fire support against ground targets). |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
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Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
T-62 and T-72
Here is the post on the T-72 (T-62 included as well). Mostly modifications to bring their stats on par with the latest version of the game and to match what is known about iraqi T-72s. With this I have covered the most importan stuff. The posts that will follow are only nice to have if you can spare the time. Unit 25: T-62A 1) FC should be changed to 7, range finder to 8 and stabiliser to 2. 2) Speed should be decreased to 18 3) Name should be changed to T-62 (see unit n.18 T-62 in russian OOB for reference) Unit 213: T-62M KMT-5 1) FC should be changed to 7, range finder to 8 and stabiliser to 2.(see unit n.18 T-62 in russian OOB for reference) 2) Speed should be decreased to 16 or similar. Unit 29-30: T-72A They should be overwritten with unit 31 T-72 from the russian OOB. 1) One as class 13 “Medium Tank”. Availability dates 1/1979-12/1991 2) One as class 59 “MBT”. Availability dates 1/1987-12/1996 Weapon n.106 could be the primary armament of both. Unit 31: T-72G 1) Fire control rating should be reduced to 20 from current 25 2) It could be renamed T-72M. 3) Loadout should be changed to 15 HE 14 Sabot 10 HEAT (early T-72M carried 39 rounds) Unit 33: T-72G 1) Fire control rating should be reduced to 20 from current 25 (see unit 648 T-72M as reference) 2) Final availability date should be extended to 4/2003 3) It could be renamed T-72M 4) Hull front armor should be increased to 34 Steel and 45 HEAT values (as in unit 648 T-72M) 5) Loadout should be changed to 20 HE 14 Sabot 10 HEAT (later T-72M carried 44 rounds) Unit 40: T-72G 1) Fire control rating should be reduced to 20 from current 25 (see unit 648 T-72M as reference) 2) It should be rearmed with weapon 101 125mm D81T 76 3) Hull front armor should be increased to 34 Steel and 45 HEAT values (as unit 648 T-72M) 4) Loadout could be changed to 32 HE 6 Sabot 6 HEAT (to provide an HE heavy counterpart to unit 33) 5) It should be renamed T-72M Units 32-35-39: T-72QM1 They should be renationalized or otherwise made unavailable. In their place (one of the could be overwritten for example) a clone of unit 649 T-72M1 should be created with the following changes: 1) Class 59 “MBT” 2) Weapon n. 101 125mm D81T 76 as main gun 3) Combat load 20 HE 14 Sabot 10 HEAT 4) 1/1987-4/2003 as availability dates Units 36-38: Assad Babyl These were locally built T-72M1 with some small modifications. I suggest to overwrite both of them with two clones of unit 649 T-72M1 with the following changes. Unit 36 1) Class 59 “MBT” 2) Weapon n. 101 125mm D81T 76 as main gun 3) Combat load 20 HE 14 Sabot 10 HEAT 4) 1/1988-4/2003 as availability dates 5) Turret front armor could be increased to 46 Steel and 58 HEAT Unit 38 1) Class 59 “MBT” 2) Weapon n. 158 125mm D81T 88 as main gun 3) Combat load 20 HE 14 Sabot 10 HEAT 4) 1/1996-4/2003 as availability dates 5) Turret front armor could be increased to 46 Steel and 58 HEAT Some changes to T-72 main guns. Weapon 101: 125mm D81T 76 HEAT penetration should be reduced from 51 to 48, consistent with BK-14M. This gun woul represent the combination of BM-15 APFSDS and BK-14M HEAT which had been available since the Iran Iraq War and were the standard service rounds by the time of OIF. Weapon 106: 125mm D81T 70 1) It should be renamed 125mm D81T 62 2) HEAT Penetration should be reduced from 48 to 42, consistent with BK-12 HEAT 3) Sabot penetration should be increased somewhat, 37 could be a good value This gun would represent the combination of BM-9 APFSDS and BK-12 HEAT which were the first service rounds for the T-72. Iraqi tanks still used some BM-9 in 1991. Weapon 102: 125mm D81T 83 1) It should be renamed 125mm D81T 68 2) HEAT penetration should be reduced from 51 to 48, consistent with BK-14M 3) Sabot penetration should be decreased from 54 to say 39 or so This gun would represent the combination of BM-12 APFSDS and BK-14M HEAT. Iraqi tanks still used some BM-12 in 1991 Weapon 158: 125mm D81T 88 HEAT Penetration to be reduced from 68 to 65 This gun could represent the combination of BM-42 APFSDS and BK-29 HEAT which were aquired in very limited numbers between the Gulf War and OIF. These rounds are also what the iraqis could buy if they wanted something better than BM-15/BK-14M but still at relatively cheap prices, as the russians have plenty of them in stocks and are willing to sell them. The older BM-9 and BM-12 had been remove from service either by shooting during training or otherwise disposed of between 1991 and 2003. Extremely small quantities of BM-42 and BK-29 had been imported in the meantime. Source: ordnance disposal reports http://www.russianarmor.info/ http://www.tank-net.org/ |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Some nice to have improvements, if time can be spared.
Units 65-72: BMP-1R Suggested modifications: 1) Change to Class 32 Scout Vehicle for both units. 2) Unit 72 Vision rating could be increased to 50 and radio code changed to X1. I take they were meant to be the reconnaissance variants of the BMP-1, usually known as BRM-1 and/or BMP-R. I have never found a source or a picture about them in iraqi service but it is perfectly plausible that a limited number of them may have been aquired among the batches of BMP-1 purchased. According to the sources some were fitted Tall-Mike battlefield surveillance radar. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rm-1-specs.htm Unit 598 GAZ-66 from OOB 11 (Russia) could be added. The iraqis used these trucks in numbers. The following modifications to the russian unit would be applied. 1) Nationality change to Iraq 2) Availability dates 1/1970-4/2003 3) Class change to 183 “Light Truck”. Source: pictures http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7418/gaz66.jpg An other, this one captured and put in american service http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...S_service.JPEG A clone of unit 290 Jeep could be added with the following changes 1) DShK in first slot deleted 2) Change to class 26 “Utility Vehicle” Formation 26: Reserve Co Unit 306 Vickers HMG in slot 3 could be replaced by unit 100 Vickers HMG Sec. This way the company would have two MMGs, which is closer to what they would have had actually (but still less than the complement of support weapons of the standard company, as would be fitting for a lower priority unit). Units 324-910: HMMWV Icons could be change to n. 3521 as it has both a more accurate camo and sports a MG turret. http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6713/hmmwva.jpg Unit 987-988: Technical I suggest icon change to n. 678. They look like pick up the iraqis are using rather than the land rover derivates which current icons look like. http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/509...aqiarmy001.jpg Source for most of the pictures: www.militaryphotos.net |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Some additional nices to have.
Unit 214 T-72M KMT-5 I usggest the following changes 1) Icon change to n. 1335 2) Front hull HEAT armor reduced to 45 (standard T-72M value) 3) Speed increase to 21 4) Name change to T-72M KMT-4 The iraqis tended to use mine plows on their T-72s, perhaps because of the nature of the soils encountered and certainly because of the comparative disadvantages of mine rollers kits such as KMT-5; namely the KMT-5 cumbersome structure and weight (over seven tons) impose a far more severe constraint on tank mobility than mine plows. The KMT-5 has to be detached (although this can be done from within the tank) while mine plows can simply be raised with the tank regaining most of its mobility without losing mineclearing capacity. Of course from a game point of view the mine plows do not offer significant standoff protection against HEAT rounds, as they cover only the tracks. http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6208/t72kmt2.jpg http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9972/t72kmt.jpg Unit n.9 Sherman V from british OOB could be added In the iraqi OOB would be armed with the following weapons. Weapon n.220 75mm Mk VII Gun Weapon n. 31 .30 cal CMG Weapon n. 29 .50 cal M2 AAMG Weapon n. 69 .30 cal BMG Availability dates 1/1947-12/1965. I have been told that the british supplied Iraq with some Sherman in the mid late 40’s. While I have not seen the documentation myself it seems a pretty logical move in the context of the british rebuilding of the iraqi armed forces. Some changes to captured tanks units/formations. Formation 111: Captured Tanks Final availability date could be extended to 4/2003 Unit 5: Chieftain Mk.3Q Final availability date could be extended to 4/2003 Unit n.8: M47 It could be deleted . The Chieftain was apparently the only captured iranian tank which was put in (very) limited use; even then not directly, they were issued in small numbers to a militia which used them very sparingly. The iraqis were not interested in captured iranian tanks because mantaining them would have been a logistical headache, they were not significantly better than their own and they could get them in sufficient numbers. The iranians on the other hand used captured iraqi armor extensively. A captured iraqi Chieftain http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8939/chieftain.jpg Sources: Pictures DoD News Briefing www.tank-net.org Unit 229: M901 ITV Availability dates could be changed to 1/1991-4/2003 (X3 radio code should be mantained, this would have been a very rare weapon) Some units were captured from Kuwait according to “Armies of the Gulf War” by Gordon L. Rottman, Ron Volstad (also confirmed by others sources). There are also reports of iraqi republican guard units still using them during OIF in 2003. Source for some of the photos: www.militaryphotos.net |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
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ALL mine clearing tanks in the game have a HEAT value higher than "standard" values. Why would I change that for the Iraqis ? Don |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
The idea was that something like this...
http://www.militaryimages.net/photop...ummer_1992.jpg http://huynhphuclinh.files.wordpress...42619_kmt5.jpg might provide some standoff protection against HEAT. On the other hand this... http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6208/t72kmt2.jpg would not (but would not slow down the vehicle as much). That being said I can imagine that it would raise the question of the others mineclearing tanks; as I said previously, this is not a life or death matter. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Something I had overlooked earlier but it is pretty important.
A RPG-2 team should be added. Create a clone of unit 268 RPG-7 Team with the following changes. 1) Weapon n. 16 RPG-2 in the first slot 2) Weapon n. 4 SKS Carbine in the second slot 3) Name change to RPG-2 Team 4) Availability dates changed to 2/1959-12/1991 Unit 265 ATR Team Final availability date could be restricted to 12/1959 |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Some non essential but nice to have.
Units 399-911: Pick up I suggest icon change to n. 678. Such icon represent better the pick up the iraqis have used. Weapon n. 143: 122mm Saddam FH Unit 90: 122mm Sddm FH Unit 175: 122mm Sddm Pl I had previously recommended the deletion of such units. If possible, they could be recycled to represent the D-74 122mm gun which was used by the iraqis.To accomplish that I suggest the follwing changes. Weapon n.143 122mm Saddam FH: 1)Name change to “122mm D-74 FG”. 2)Range should be increased from 212 to 214 (D-74 value in russian OOB). Unit 90: 122mm Sddm FH Unit 175: 122mm Sddm Pl 1) Name change to “122mm D-74 FG” and “122mm D-74 Pl” 2) picture change to n. 23490 3) Availability dates for both could be changed to 1/1967-4/2003 Sources : they are listed by most sources which cover iraqi artillery inventory. Pictures of them in Iraq are also available. http://www.howitzer.dk/army/armyphot.../d74_122mm.jpg http://www.howitzer.dk/vehicles/vehi...03/d74-122.jpg Source:http://www.howitzer.dk Unit 233: 57mm AT-Gun I suggest load change to 45 HE 20 AP and 15 Sabot There are rumors about an HEAT round being developed (see http://www.russianammo.org/57mm.html#29) but whether they were fielded is another matter. It is even less likely that they would have been exported and none have have been found in Iraq. Unit 88-173: 122mm M30 Final availability date could be extended somewhat, to say 12/1988 M30s are listed as still being in service in 1991 by several sources such as Armies of the Gulf War by Gordon L. Rottman, Ron Volstad. Captured iraqi documents certainly list WW2 vintage artillery such as 152mm ML-20 as still in service during the Gulf War (though the M30 is not mentioned). I think making them available until the end of the Iran Iraq war would be a safe bet. Unit 1: PT-76 Icon could be changed to n. 1620. That would be more in line with known iraqi camouflage patterns http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9853/pt76.jpg Source: http://picasaweb.google.com/IraQiyaat |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Some additional nice to have things.
Centurion Mk-7 tank could be added. This one however, given the scarcity of available weapon slots, is conditional to overwriting one weapon. Specifically weapon n. 90mm M36 Gun in the iraqi OOB should be overwritten with weapon n.91 20 Pounder 52 from the british OOB. They are both tank guns and the iraqi weapon n.90 is used only by unit n. 8 M47 which, as I esplained previously, was never used by the iraqis anyway (and even if one wanted to play “what if” there is always the capture option). This unit could be created in the following way: 1) Import unit n. 15 “Centurion Mk 6” from the british OOB 2) Rename it “Centurion Mk 7” 3) Rearm it with - Weapon n.74: 7.62mm L8A1 CMG in the second slot (not the correct model but they have exactly the same stats) - Weapon n.73 : 7.62mm L37 AAMG in the third slot - 20 Pounder 52 in the first slot. 4) Availability dates changed to 1/1956-12/1975. Sources: - Centurion Universal Tank 1943-2003 by Simon Dunstan, Peter Sarson - SIPRI Unit 582: Dug-In T-62M It should be deleted. As I noted in the past T-62 fitted with laser rangefinder was probably nothing more than a prototype/limited production; unit 26 T-62M is sufficient to cover that. Weapon n. 7 “AK74 Rifle” could be renamed “M16 Rifle” This could be used to rearm unit 414 Rifle Section a well as: - A clone of unit 413 Rifle Section with 6/2007-12/2020 as availability dates - A clone of unit 420 Motor Section with 6/2007-12/2020 as availability dates Sources: http://iraqnewsmonitor.blogspot.com/...s-to-some.html http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/20070517.aspx http://www.blackanthem.com/News/Alli...fles6600.shtml |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
With this I have nearly finished with the ground units.
Unit 743: Grenade Team It should be deleted. The M79 grenade launcher is not a common weapon among guerrillas.The old iraqi army (whose former stocks are the main source of weapons for the insurgents) used yugo rifle grenades for that purpose. It is possible given the bewildering variety of small arms used in Iraq that it might have used by someone at some point but then we would have to put in God only know how many weapons. Unit 760: Guerilla Group Weapon n.18 RPG-7 and weapon n.13 7.62mm PKM LMG could be added in slots 3 and 4 Unit 774: Guerilla Group Weapon n.124 40mm BG-15 GL should be replaced by weapon n.26 60mm Cmmdo Mtr. Formation 87: Fedayeen Wpn Pl The Strela in slot 3 could be replaced by something else (unit 268 RPG-7 Team for example). The Fedayeeen would not have too many high end weapons and a MANPAD is already included in formation 84. Source: various, including “La Caduta di Baghdad” (“The Fall of Baghdad”, containing interviews to syrian volounteers fighting with the fedayeen Saddam) Weapon n.87 85mm D44 Gun HEAT penetration could be increased to 30. The iraqis had BK-2M for their 85mm guns. Source: ordnance disposal reports Units 240-241: 100mm AT-Gun Load could be changed to 30 Sabot 18 HEAT 12 HE. There were no AP rounds for this gun, only two APFSDS which are already covered in the game by having weapon 97 100mm 2A29 65 and weapon n.98 100mm 2A29 79. Source: ordnance disposal reports Unit 584: Dug-In T-72G 1) Name change to Dug-In T-72M 2) Fire control rating reduced to 20 3) Final availability date extended to 12/2020 |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Wasn't T72M the export one?
Were all t72 sold by russia to other countries designated "M" or "S"?(other than license built ones such as M-84 Degmen, produced on croatia) |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
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1) Basic T-72: cast steel turret, optical rangefinder, made available since 1979. 2) T-72M: improved variant with LRF, new more accurate gun etc. Apparently it came in several subvariants with differences in items like glacis configuration, ammo capacity, presence of smoke dischargers etc. Most common export variant 3) T-72M1: essentially T-72M with better armor (composite turret, reinforced glacis) 4) T-72S: export variant of the T-72B, made available at the end of the cold war. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Some additional nice to have albeit not essential modifications.
Unit 462 SF Section Availability dates could be changed to 1/1986-4/2003 Unit 463 SF Section Final availability date could be changed to to 4/2003 Unit 466 SF Section Final availability date could be changed to 4/2003 Unit 721 SF Section It could be rearmed with weapon n.7 renamed M16 Vision could be increased to 10 Unit 467 SF Section Initial availability date could be changed to 1/1981 It should be rearmed with weapon n. 15 Rifle-Grenade (with 4-8 HE rounds) instead of weapon n. 124 40mm BG-15 GL. Unit 468 SF Section Initial availability date could be changed back to 1/1981 It could be with weapon n. 15 Rifle-Grenade (with 4-8 HE rounds) instead of weapon n. 124 40mm BG-15 GL I have further checked the ordnance disposal reports. No ammunition for the BG-15 GL has turned up which means that either it was never used or it was a very limited issue. Thus as suggested in the recommendations above the numbers of units equipped with it would be reduced to reflect this. A unit that could be added, using one of the few remaining available weapon slots Unit 230: PIAT Team from OOB 7 Great Britain Availability dates 1/1947-12/1959 Kurdish units and formations. There is the question of what these units/formations would represent. Ther kurds have operated as insurgents against the iraqi government, as the armed forces of Kurdistan, as iraqi security forces and combinations of the above depending on the period. As a consequence of this organization and character of the forces involved has varied from small guerrilla units to regular conventional forces. In light of the above I suggest some modifications to bring them in line with the new iraqi security forces in order to represent, for example, the mountain units which are currently being formed. As alternative they could be reorganized along traditional kurdish guerrilla units but the modifications would be more extensive, as well as requiring date changes in units and formations. Unit 790: Kurdish Squad Weapon n. 121 in slot 3 could be replaced with weapon n. 18 RPG-7 Unit 792: Kurdish Squad Reclassed as class 78 Partisan Band Formation 720: Kurdish Platoon Unit 791 in slot 4 should be replaced by unit 790 Formation 721: Kurdish Company Unit n. 450 Scouts and Unit n. 804 2x60mm Mortars would replace Units 790 and 792 in slots 2 and 3 Unit 55-810: M40 Recoilless Weapon AK47 Rifle could be replaced by weapon n.4 SKS Carbine. The AK-47 would be a bit too much out of place in the late 50’s. The SKS should be OK for most of the unit lifespan. With this I have finished with the ground units. Next posts will be on the air units. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
The first post on iraqi air assets, some changes for aviation weapons and planes.
Weapon n.182: 12.7mm Gat It could be be renamed 7.62mm TMP-5. This was a gun pod housing two 7.62mm machine guns and was the gun armament of choice for the western supplied helicopters and light turboprop attack planes. Weapon n. 187: 23mm GSh-23L It should be overwritten with weapon n.39 12.7mm (4) YaKB from OOB 11 Russia Currently it equips only unit n. 125 Mi-25, but the iraqi Mi-25s actually carried the 12.7mmYaKB. Weapon n. 194: 50kg Bomb could be overwritten with weapon n.195 100kg Bomb from russian OOB. 100kg bombs (FAB-100 and similar) were used in substantial numbers.Given the shortage of weapon slots I suggest overwriting weapon 194 because the 50kg bomb was. a)Far less frequently used. b)The units which are currently using it would have to be rearmed with something else anyway. Weapon n. 245: 1000kg Bomb could be overwritten with weapon n.196 500lb Bomb from OOB 7 Great Britain. The use of bombs of size greater than 500kg is not documented, that is not surprising as the iraqis had in their arsenals weapons that were hardly ever used, for various reasons. 500lb Bomb would be more useful in order to arm early british supplied planes. Weapon n.199: HE Cluster Bomb HE penetration should be reduced drastically. The iraqis used several specialized antipersonnel cluster bombs, ranging from RBKs filled with HE bomblets to purpose built south african CB470 with bouncing submunitions. Such weapons would have only a very limited, if any, effect on armored targets. Unit 129 Gladiator It should be rearmed with two weapons 191 50lb Bomb, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3 It seems logical that both bombs would have been dropped at the same time. Unit 130: Fury FB.11 1)FC rating is too high, it should be lowered to 5 as it would be more consistent with aircrafts of that vintage. 2)It could be rearmed with two 500lb bombs, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3 Unit 131: Beaufighter X It could be deleted : one source mentions it but it seems it was a misreading of primary sources where transport planes were mistaken for Beaufighters. There is no other mention of it nor of any combat use. Unit 133: DH-112 1) Bombs in slots 2-3-4 should be deleted and replaced with two weapon n.198 1000lb Bomb, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3 2) Final availability date should be extended to 12/1967. They still equipped a fighter squadron during the Six Days War, they were replaced only in 1968. Sources for the above and the following posts are Acig.org In particular articles such as: Iraqi Air Force Since 1948, Part 1 Iraqi Air Force since 1948, Part 2 I Persian Gulf War: Iraqi Invasion of Iran, September 1980 Fire in the Hills: Iranian and Iraqi Battles of Autumn 1982 Which can be found here Arab Air Forces on 5 June 1967 Which can be found here Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 units in combat by Nicolle,Tom Cooper Iraqi fighters 1953-2003: Camouflage & Markings (excerpts) Plus various others sources. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Unit 124: Mi-24
It should be deleted, Iraq did not get this version. Unit 125: Mi-25 1) Initial availability date changed to 1/1980 2) Weapon n.145 Malyutka ATGM should be replaced with weapon n. 147 Falanga ATGM 3) Weapon n.185 2x 57mm S-5K in slots 2 and 3 replaced by weapon n. 186 4x 57mm S-5 with 16 HE rounds for each A typical load would have been four UB-32 32 rounds rocket pods and Falanga ATGMs, as seen in this captured iraqi example. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/a...FST9209226.jpg http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/a...FST9209228.jpg Note also the standard 12,7mm gatling as gun armament; as noted previously iraqi Mi-24s did not carry 23mm guns. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/a...FST9209229.jpg Source for the pictures: http://www.fas.org Unit 135 J-6 It has a wrong armament and is redundant, I suggest it to be deleted. Unit 136: J-6 1) Availability date should be changed to 1/1983-12/1986 2) EW rating should be reduced to 0 3) Rocket ammo in slots 2-3 should be reduced from 5 to 4. 4) FC rating could be reduced to 7 The reduction in rocket ammo would make it consistent with four 8 rounds rocket pods, a typical MiG-19/J-6 load, or two UB-16 16 rounds pods. 57mm S-5 rockets were usually carried in pods with 8 16 or 32 rockets capacity. These were pretty spartan planes, lacking EW equipment and with a very short lifespan. Unit 139: MiG-17D 1) Renamed MIG-17F (the iraqis got MiG-17F and MiG-17PF versions) 2) Availability dates could be changed to 1/1959-12/1973 3) It should be rearmed with two weapons n. 194, one in slot 3 and an other in slot 4. Unit 140: MiG-17F 1) Final availability date restricted to 12/1973 2)Ammo load for weapon 186 4x 57mm S-5 in slot 3 would be reduced from 5 to 4 rounds, consistent with two pods carrying 8 rockets each. 3) Speed could be lowered to 11 (consistent with Unit 134 MiG-17F value in the Russian OOB) Unit 141: MiG-17PF 1) Availability dates changed to 1/1959-12/1973 2) It could be rearmed with two weapon n. 196 250kg Bomb, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3 3) Speed could be lowered to 11 Unit 142: MiG-19S 1) Rocket ammo in slots 2-3 should be reduced from 5 to 4. 2) Final availability date could be restricted to 12/1970 or 12/1973 (they were already being phased out in 1967) 3) FC rating could be reduced to 7 |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Unit 143: MiG-21MF.
1)Fire Control should be increased to 10. 2)EW should be increased to 1, the plane did have a RWR. 3)Armament would changed to two weapon n. 196 250kg Bomb, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3. The MiG-21MF gunsight, bombsight and EW equipment were comparable or more advanced than those installed on the MiG-21PFM. I suggested rearming it two 250kg bombs because there is already one MiG-21 available with 500kg bombs and two 250kg bombs was apparently a more common armament anyway. The performance penalty (loss of range etc.) from carrying two 500Kg bombs was reportedly very high. Unit 144: MiG-21PF 1) Night vision rating should be reduced to zero: 2) Rocket ammo in slots 2-3 should be reduced from 8 to 4. The plane carried two UB-16 rocket pods with 16 rockets each. Unit 145: MiG-21PFM Night vision rating should be reduced to zero. The MiG-21PF lacked a gun while the PFM could at least carry a gunpod in the ventral hardpoint. These MiG-21s did not have any optical night vision systems or a radars capable of detecting a ground target; insofar ground attacks went they were purely day fighters. Units 150-151: Su-7BMK 1) Night vision rating should be reduced to zero. 2) EW rating should be reduced to 1. 3) Final availability date should be changed to 12/1986. 4) Unit 150 should be rearmed with four 250kg bombs (weapon n.196) , two in slot 2 and another two in slot 3. Unit 123 SA-342K Weapon n.233 7.62mm NF1 MG in slot 1 should be deleted No machine guns were reportedly carried together with the HOT missiles and in any case doing so would have meant reducing the number of missiles carried. Four HOT missiles was the typical fit. Unit 121 SA-341H 1) Name change to SA-342K 2) Final availability date extended to 12/1991 3) Weapon n. 145 Malyutka ATGM replaced by weapon n. 163 HOT ATGM with two rounds of ammunition According to some sources such a mixed HOT/Strela armament was used to counter the threat posed by iranian Cobra gunships. according to SIPRI versions supplied were SA-342K and SA-342L Unit 127: H-500D 1)It should be rearmed with weapon n. 182. 2)night vision rating could be reduced to 10 or 0. Unit 128 MDH-530MF 1) Armament could be changed to weapon n. 213 2x Hydra 70 with six rounds of HE ammunition. 2) night vision rating could be reduced to 10 or 0. Units 187-188 Il-28 1) The weapons in slot 3 for both units could be deleted; max practical bomb load was eight FAB-250 or four FAB-500 2) Final availability date should be restricted to 12/1982. The sources indicate that the iraqi Il-28 were, if not already out of service at the beginning of the Iran-Iraq war, at the end of their service lives. Unit 189 Il-28 It could be deleted, It has incorrect armament, besides units 187-188 are sufficient. Unit 119: MB-339 It could be deleted. Italian sources which MB-339 don’t mention Iraq as being supplied with them, nor there are mentions anywhere of its combat use in the iraqi air force. Unit 963: AH-1 Cobra/TOW Initial availability date should be pushed forward to 1/2015. Insofar it is known there are no plans to purchase Cobra gunships, nor the US has many to spare to start with. Still I would wait before deleting it. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
BTW Marcello, I'm monitoring this thread because I'm using Iraq as the primary opposition for the mini-campaign I'm making to go along with my USMC OOB release (to "showcase" the OOB changes AND let folks see how a "real" USMC battalion MEU is organized).
By chance are you making a revised Iraq OOB I could borrow/steal to use? |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
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Hence I now prefer helping with the official OOBs, as they are more likely to be used with the standard game as OPFOR etc. That being said, if you can afford wait till mid/late January I could cook one adding the changes listed in this thread to the stock game OOB. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
No problem at all waiting.
Thanks! |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
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Marcello, do you have any idea when BR-412B APBC and BR-412 APCBC were first produced and distributed ? All I've found so far is a vague reference to a time period right after WW2. In game terms the Pen for BR-412B should be 18 ( I have a number of weapons being adjusted in this next patch and this just happens to be one of them ) , BR-412"D" APCBC should be 22 but It would be helpful if anyone knows then these things started being issued. Stock BR-412 would be 16 pen in game based on detailed info I found on it's performance and the B and D versions at 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 and 3000 yards and that means there will be adjustments to SPWW2 as well For HEAT I have 100mm BK-5M with 380mm Pen issued " in mid 50's " but I also have source that says BK-5M was issued in 1960. The round before that I have as BK-354M HEAT with 280mm pen but I've also seen that described as BK-5., If anyone knows when BK-5M was first issued that would be helpful As for BM-8 APDS I have that showing up in 1968 with penetration rated between 257 mm and 264 @ 1km and in game terms we get a closer representation with a 31 pen and 90 range Since everyone looks for inconsistencies that may exist between one weapon in other OOBs and given that this gun is used in dozens of OOB's There are adjustments that need to be done in quite a few plus SPww2. However it would be helpful to know just when the BR-412D started making an appearance. Don |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Don,
The work you put into this game is GREATLY APPRECIATED! This is what I found on the BR-412D. It was supposedly put into service in the late 40s-50 time frame. Check this link: http://echo501.tripod.com/Military/100mm.htm |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
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BR-412B: 1945 BR-412D: with one of the T-54 models, perhaps model 1951 circa 1951-1952. |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
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I have similar charts like this for 105mm and 120 mm ammo and had been looking for one for the 100m ammo. Thanks Don |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
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Don |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
Don,
You are welcome. I'll try to keep reading your post and keep contributing with info like the above. Glad to help contribute! |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
I've just quickly looked up the 100 mm rounds in question in the Jane’s Ammunition Handbook. It isn’t particularly good for ‘older’ ammunition but here are a few quotes from the book.
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"The 53-BR-412 can penetrate 135 mm of vertical armour at 1,000 m and the 53-BR-412B penetration at the same range is 185 mm." Quote:
"The 100 mm HEAT-FS BK-5M has a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s. Although it can penetrate up to 380 mm of armour set at 0º and 190 mm set at 60º, it has been calculated that the hit probability against a static tank sized target at 1,000 m is only 43 per cent. At 2,000 m the hit probability is reduced to a negligible 2 per cent." Quote:
"The 100 mm HVAPDS-T BM-8 has a muzzle velocity of 1,400 to 1,415 m/s and is claimed to be able to penetrate 300 mm of vertical armour at the maximum effective direct fire range of 1,680 m." |
Re: Iraqi errors report - Part 2
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