Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I saw the -best- nations in each era. Now whats everyones thoughts on the worst?

Mine would be:

Early - Agartha/Marveni

Mid - Man/Ulm

Late - Hard choice, but in the end for me it was tied between Utgard and Marignon. I'd say Jomon too...But damnit I love Jomon!

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

LA Rlyeh. Not because it's inherently weak.
No, my reason is this: Micromanagement hell.

LA Ermor is also a micromanagement hell to an extent, but at least your commanders dont start dreaming of the void at critical points.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Zargen:
You are totally wrong for LA. Marignon and Utgard are top nations there.

EA: Ulm weakest, then also C'tis, Agartha, Marverni, Kailasa are considered weaker
MA: Man is the weakest nation now, level higher is probably Agartha, Ulm is not so bad now [but tough in MP]
LA: Atlantis, Jomon, Bogarus

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

EA: I have yet to figure what to do with EA Rlyeh.
MA: Man, Bandar Log (very fun to play, as I figured out recently, but still somewhat weak imho), Oceania, Eriu.
LA: Man, Jomon (not exactly weak, but very hard to figure out how to play with these), Ulm (same as Jomon).

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

EA: Ulm, Yomi
MA: Man, Agartha, Oceania
LA: Jomon, Atlantis, Bogarus

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

EA: Ulm/Agartha
MA: Man
LA: Man/Jomon

Maverni is not really bad, they have a decent heavy infantry unit you want to spam and 4S/4E easily accessible. It sure isn't top notch either naturally.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

EA:- Atlantis, Yomi.

MA:- Man, Machaka, Oceania, Atlantis.

LA:- Atlantis, Man.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

EA - Mictlan, Hinnom, Sauromatia
MA - Pythium, R'lyeh, Ashdod
LA - Mictlan, Marginon, Midgard

EA Mictlan is not that bad, they have sort of useful sacreds, but Ashdod totally blows.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

totally

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Whats with that hate for Yomi? I wouldn't think a nation with recruitable SCs, strong mages, and powerful demon troops would be considered weak :confused:

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I find EA Ulm to be pretty average. I'd rate them higher than Atlantis, Oceania, Pangaea, Yomi, Tien Chi, and Kailasa. Those are the weak EA nations to me. Probably around the same power of Ermor, Marverni, Tir na n'Og, C'tis.

EA has a lot of good nations though.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I believe it's about

1.) The lack of strategic mobility for the SCs,
2.) The vulnerability of those demon troops to mass Banishment spam from hordes of indy priests.

Mass banishment doesn't really come up in SP, so if you play SP Yomi is fine IME and plenty of fun.

-Max

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

yep. if it weren't for the easy-to-muster-indie-priest banishment spam Yomi woulnd't be half bad. It's hard to solve the problem without, say, just making demons not vulnerable to banishment (which I think would be an acceptable solution). Something ad hoc like giving demons a +4MR vs banishment only or requiring at least H2 to effect demons is not really modable (I don't think) and not likely to be added by devs.

Demons just shouldn't be effected by banish. Smite Demon should become just a banish for demons while remaining H2. Aside from countering Yomi, banishing demons just isn't a common tactic or one that plays a role elsewhere in the game; ergo demons could be removed from the types of units the spell effects without really impacting the game (aside from making Yomi 'worth it').

Can banish be modded in that way (remove demons as being effected?) I didnt think it could.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

It can be modded. Easily. Try this:

#selectspell "Banishment"
#spec 75763712
#end

The spec value makes it: MR negates, only affects hostile, works underwater and works only on undead.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

You can counter banish spam by casting mist and darkness (lower precision for enemy priests), or antimagic - which is trickier because Yomi lacks national access to astral.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I think the point is that it's very easy to spam banish, and not too easy to counter it...

How about giving Yomi a "protection of the sepulchre" equivalent?

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Its easy to spam darkness, and extremly hard to counter it. ;)
Maybe just raise MR for Yomi smaller demons if Yomi is that weak indeed?

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

By the way, Fog Warriors also easily counter Banishment. :)
Of course, Shinuyama is still better. I think the problem is that lesser Oni are just too pricey to be really useful. But then, if they would be more easily massable, it could be overkill... As for Banishing demons it's quite thematic and Oni MR is on par with other Demons.
Considering nations:
EA: Agartha, I think. Maybe Fomoria.
MA: Oceania, until...
LA: Patala. Maybe Arcoscephales - I just don't see Sybils as good substitute for what they had earlier...

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

"Only affects hostiles" is a change from the current version. I would leave it at "affects friendlies and hostiles."

Note that once Oni are killed into ghost-form they are undead, not demons. Thematically I like the idea of banishment only working on Oni once they're killed.

-Max

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Fomoria has recruitable, giant SCs which are Mistform + Soul Vortex-capable and can Cloud Trapeze. Not weak.

-Max

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I don't think it's necessarily thematic. it's not too hard to find tales of demons who are not susceptible to generic holy powers, who laugh in the face of such power, even utilize it for their own ends. I think it would be both thematic and more balanced if demons were not effected by banish, leaving only the H2 spell smite demon. Rarely are masses of demons used as troops, therefore banish on demons is really a non-factor for gameplay. Only Yomi will really be effected by this, and since it is banish spam which causes them to be considered weak in MP, I think it would be healthy for game play to simply not have demons effected by banish.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Lanka's Palankasha have MR12 compared to Yomi's 13/14/15 for size 1/2/3 demons.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Yomi's demons already have 14/15 MR. A spell to increase that would probably make them too strong - 17+ MR seems to be reserved for powerful commanders and elite sacred troops. If Yomi had some decent non-demon troops I don't think banish would be a big issue.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Great endame with death access, giant chassis, morrigans:

Top third in strength.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Disagree with Agartha being weakest. With proper pretender design one can address most weaknesses, then you have sacred giants recruitable everywhere and Blade Wind spam.

Ermor is weak in EA. While having good expansion speed, there's not that much for midgame.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Don't augurs have potentially (AKA, if all the randoms fit right) 2-3D? that should give EA Ermor leverage to get into death magic.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Middle game with EA-Ermor *is* often a weakness. Yet, I think they are way strong enough not to be considered the weakest.

I wrote up a thread on them - I consider them quite ok.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Lanka has masses of demon troops, and so does any blood nation spamming Summon Imp or Lifelong Protection, or with Soul Contracts. Thematically I like the idea, but there might be balance problems.

-Max

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I don't see a reason to change how banish works, i think its perfectly thematic and balanced in general. Yomi just needs to be improved a little, either given some reasonable non-demon troops, or improve the demons slightly. That can be MR, a national spell, or some other improvement to balance against the banish susceptibility

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Augur Elders have 2F1S2D + 110% FASD, so they can get up to 4D, and can be 3D easily. Ermor will have trouble forging Rings of Sorcery without Pretender help (only 2S randoms reliably, and Starshine Skullcap but not Crystal Coin), so unless they win the artifacts race their best bet for high D is to go through Enchantment to summon demi-liches (3D Augur Elder forges skull staff, use staff to forge skullface to get to 5D, give staff and skullface to demilich to get 6D). May need to empower a lich to get 7D for tartarians, or else empower a 3S Augur Elder to 4S (45 pearls) so he can use a starshine skullcap to forge a Ring of Wizardry. Not prohibitively expensive.

As far as battle magic goes, though, you're probably fine just sticking to 3D or 4D (with staff), which is plenty to cast Rigor Mortis or Plague or Wailing Winds or Wind of Death.

-Max

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Agreed! How about giving Yomi "Tempering the Will"? They've got the casters for it, it won't do a whole heck of a lot for them most of the time due to the already-pretty-good MR so it's unlikely to disturb balance.

And while we're at it, give Hannyas +10%W so Yomi can: (1) have a shot at summoning a Kappa without forcing them to take a WN god or pray for amazons, and (2) make rune smashers so "Tempering the Will" has something like a 10% chance of actually increasing MR, instead of just 5%.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

'Tempuring the will' :)

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Weakest nations in my opinion

EA R'Lyeh, Ulm

MA Man, Oceania

LA Jomon, Atlantis

and of course any nation with monkey PD

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

You CANNOT win with monkey pd.

It's PROVEN. By CAPS.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

sorry but looool

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Tempurang the Will sounds about right.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Monkey PD. Heh, that's an oxymoron.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Really, monkey army isnt much better than their PD.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Well, apart for their just scandalous MR, their bandar infantry is quite good. just their MR (8?)... Seeing a 80+ bandar royal swordsman army kill each other because of confusion spam (by A2 mages with no items) is, indeed, painfull.
('test' made with CBM)

I can't remember if all their troops share this most gifted MR, but if they do I rate them last just because of it (in all eras). What a pain it must be in MP...

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

On paper, they look good. On the battlefield they are just a bunch of apes. Just like it should be - gorillas are mighty, but helpless agaisnt armed humans. :)

They are overpriced, large (thus prone to being swarmed) and not as tough, as, say, a Jotun giant to justify the drawbacks.

P.S.
Dont get me wrong, I dont consider Bandar Log pathetic anymore. Not with CBM, anyway. They are quite unique and fun. :)

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

I´m surprised to see LA atlantis considered weak, I think they´re awesome. Especially with the new mages giving them exactly what they lacked before.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

On Fomoria: I agree that they have SC potential. But - 1 eye. And their giant troops are really weak against any decent swarmers. I rushed them once and they just died... An alternative could be to use just Nemedians for expansion - but then, why not play a real Sidhe/Van nation?
ON Yomi: I think something like Tempering the Will may be useful. And they DO have useful troops in their goblins. It's only that Shinuyama is better - and there is fierce competition in EA...
Monkeys are good enough, I think - except Patala with their strong, but overencumbered mages. And cold-blooded with Water magic, no less!
On Agartha I may be wrong. But there are other Earth nations - with better troops.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Playing with Fomoria in Rand I never had an issue with the Fomorian Kings losing eyes...the helmetless giant sacreds did a fair bit, but the kings come with a helmet and can cast air shield. I took out Marverni pretty easily with them, but Mictlan's sacreds tore them up in melee. Luckily thunderstrike solved that problem pretty handily.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Patala has encumbered mages?.. Change shape once, and they get rid of these plate hauberks, getting encumberance 4. :)
And water magic allows them to become frost-immune, negating cold-bloodedness.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Frost immunity does not remove the encumbrance effects cold blooded units suffer in cold climates. Frost/heat immunity only removes the +2 severe cold/heat encumbrance effect you get from +3 cold/heat scales.

Very easy to test, start as any cold bloded nation, give them +3 cold scales, and put a Ring of Frost on one of the commanders. You will see the +2 encumbrance effects of the severe cold disappear, but the unit will still be suffering from the +10 encumbrance caused by the cold blooded tag.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Only one of the nagas has plate hauberk, and he has it in both forms. All nagas lose cold-blooded when they change form, which leaves them at base 4, or 8 for the armored one.
Frost immunity doesn't usually remove cold blooded.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Ah, my bad :) I didnt notice the nagaraja in question has robe of the sea instead of plate hauberk.
Anyway, I dont see how being cold-blooded is a fatal flaw. And your best mages arent wearing plate mail anyway.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

EA Agartha is Good Actually.
Their troops do whats need to be done, and actually they are better than most, they have innate siege bonus and dont need to eat so you get a very decent chaff for late game allowing to siege any castle in 1 turn, even you can camp at an LA Ermor fort.
With good hitpoints and cheap they last long enough to let your mages do their job.
If thats a problem with early game you get troglodytes that do what pale ones cant.
And their mages are so cool, powerful magics and giant. You also get your cheap mage for the research job.
And the risen oracle pretender. Jontuns get a similar one but I dont know of other with SC potential and immortal.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

The Hall of Honor says-

EA- Ermor, Abysia, Tir, Atlantis, Yomi, Oceania

MA- TC, Argatha, Vanheim, Atlantis, Eiru, Bandar

LA- Arco, C'tis, Atlantis, Bogorus

I say-

EA- All three water nations(insufficiently amphibious), Ermor, Arco, Abysia, Ulm

Mid - Man

Late - umm...well...um...err...most of them when compared to other ages or Ashen Empire, none of them when compared to each other? I dunno, i've never really been able to wrap my tiny brain around the skewed strategic situation presented by the late age killer dominion powers.

##########

I've never played LA Atlantis, but i've fought them a few times and definitely do not consider them weak. Also as an amphibious nation with D/W they strike me as having better prospects than most of being able to hold their own against the two twilight powers.

What exactly is wrong with the towering pile of whup that is EA Argatha? I know that they have many "annoyance features" , but their troops are tough, their top caster awesome, and their national summons useful and easily available.

Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
 

Since I'm playing them currently, I'm curious why EA Atlantis is considered so bad. They are certainly not "insufficiently amphibious", since they don't have any aquatic only units. Basalt Kings are good thugs/borderline SCs.
Is it just because they lack Astral/Death/Blood for the late game?