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Worst Nations in Each Era
I saw the -best- nations in each era. Now whats everyones thoughts on the worst?
Mine would be: Early - Agartha/Marveni Mid - Man/Ulm Late - Hard choice, but in the end for me it was tied between Utgard and Marignon. I'd say Jomon too...But damnit I love Jomon! |
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LA Rlyeh. Not because it's inherently weak.
No, my reason is this: Micromanagement hell. LA Ermor is also a micromanagement hell to an extent, but at least your commanders dont start dreaming of the void at critical points. |
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Zargen:
You are totally wrong for LA. Marignon and Utgard are top nations there. EA: Ulm weakest, then also C'tis, Agartha, Marverni, Kailasa are considered weaker MA: Man is the weakest nation now, level higher is probably Agartha, Ulm is not so bad now [but tough in MP] LA: Atlantis, Jomon, Bogarus |
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EA: I have yet to figure what to do with EA Rlyeh.
MA: Man, Bandar Log (very fun to play, as I figured out recently, but still somewhat weak imho), Oceania, Eriu. LA: Man, Jomon (not exactly weak, but very hard to figure out how to play with these), Ulm (same as Jomon). |
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EA: Ulm, Yomi
MA: Man, Agartha, Oceania LA: Jomon, Atlantis, Bogarus |
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EA: Ulm/Agartha
MA: Man LA: Man/Jomon Maverni is not really bad, they have a decent heavy infantry unit you want to spam and 4S/4E easily accessible. It sure isn't top notch either naturally. |
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EA:- Atlantis, Yomi.
MA:- Man, Machaka, Oceania, Atlantis. LA:- Atlantis, Man. |
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EA - Mictlan, Hinnom, Sauromatia
MA - Pythium, R'lyeh, Ashdod LA - Mictlan, Marginon, Midgard EA Mictlan is not that bad, they have sort of useful sacreds, but Ashdod totally blows. |
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totally
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Whats with that hate for Yomi? I wouldn't think a nation with recruitable SCs, strong mages, and powerful demon troops would be considered weak :confused:
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I find EA Ulm to be pretty average. I'd rate them higher than Atlantis, Oceania, Pangaea, Yomi, Tien Chi, and Kailasa. Those are the weak EA nations to me. Probably around the same power of Ermor, Marverni, Tir na n'Og, C'tis.
EA has a lot of good nations though. |
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1.) The lack of strategic mobility for the SCs, 2.) The vulnerability of those demon troops to mass Banishment spam from hordes of indy priests. Mass banishment doesn't really come up in SP, so if you play SP Yomi is fine IME and plenty of fun. -Max |
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yep. if it weren't for the easy-to-muster-indie-priest banishment spam Yomi woulnd't be half bad. It's hard to solve the problem without, say, just making demons not vulnerable to banishment (which I think would be an acceptable solution). Something ad hoc like giving demons a +4MR vs banishment only or requiring at least H2 to effect demons is not really modable (I don't think) and not likely to be added by devs.
Demons just shouldn't be effected by banish. Smite Demon should become just a banish for demons while remaining H2. Aside from countering Yomi, banishing demons just isn't a common tactic or one that plays a role elsewhere in the game; ergo demons could be removed from the types of units the spell effects without really impacting the game (aside from making Yomi 'worth it'). Can banish be modded in that way (remove demons as being effected?) I didnt think it could. |
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#selectspell "Banishment" #spec 75763712 #end The spec value makes it: MR negates, only affects hostile, works underwater and works only on undead. |
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You can counter banish spam by casting mist and darkness (lower precision for enemy priests), or antimagic - which is trickier because Yomi lacks national access to astral.
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I think the point is that it's very easy to spam banish, and not too easy to counter it...
How about giving Yomi a "protection of the sepulchre" equivalent? |
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Its easy to spam darkness, and extremly hard to counter it. ;)
Maybe just raise MR for Yomi smaller demons if Yomi is that weak indeed? |
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By the way, Fog Warriors also easily counter Banishment. :)
Of course, Shinuyama is still better. I think the problem is that lesser Oni are just too pricey to be really useful. But then, if they would be more easily massable, it could be overkill... As for Banishing demons it's quite thematic and Oni MR is on par with other Demons. Considering nations: EA: Agartha, I think. Maybe Fomoria. MA: Oceania, until... LA: Patala. Maybe Arcoscephales - I just don't see Sybils as good substitute for what they had earlier... |
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Note that once Oni are killed into ghost-form they are undead, not demons. Thematically I like the idea of banishment only working on Oni once they're killed. -Max |
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-Max |
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Lanka's Palankasha have MR12 compared to Yomi's 13/14/15 for size 1/2/3 demons.
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Yomi's demons already have 14/15 MR. A spell to increase that would probably make them too strong - 17+ MR seems to be reserved for powerful commanders and elite sacred troops. If Yomi had some decent non-demon troops I don't think banish would be a big issue.
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Top third in strength. |
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Ermor is weak in EA. While having good expansion speed, there's not that much for midgame. |
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Don't augurs have potentially (AKA, if all the randoms fit right) 2-3D? that should give EA Ermor leverage to get into death magic.
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I wrote up a thread on them - I consider them quite ok. |
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-Max |
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I don't see a reason to change how banish works, i think its perfectly thematic and balanced in general. Yomi just needs to be improved a little, either given some reasonable non-demon troops, or improve the demons slightly. That can be MR, a national spell, or some other improvement to balance against the banish susceptibility
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As far as battle magic goes, though, you're probably fine just sticking to 3D or 4D (with staff), which is plenty to cast Rigor Mortis or Plague or Wailing Winds or Wind of Death. -Max |
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And while we're at it, give Hannyas +10%W so Yomi can: (1) have a shot at summoning a Kappa without forcing them to take a WN god or pray for amazons, and (2) make rune smashers so "Tempering the Will" has something like a 10% chance of actually increasing MR, instead of just 5%. |
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'Tempuring the will' :)
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Weakest nations in my opinion
EA R'Lyeh, Ulm MA Man, Oceania LA Jomon, Atlantis and of course any nation with monkey PD |
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You CANNOT win with monkey pd.
It's PROVEN. By CAPS. |
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sorry but looool
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Monkey PD. Heh, that's an oxymoron.
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Really, monkey army isnt much better than their PD.
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Well, apart for their just scandalous MR, their bandar infantry is quite good. just their MR (8?)... Seeing a 80+ bandar royal swordsman army kill each other because of confusion spam (by A2 mages with no items) is, indeed, painfull.
('test' made with CBM) I can't remember if all their troops share this most gifted MR, but if they do I rate them last just because of it (in all eras). What a pain it must be in MP... |
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On paper, they look good. On the battlefield they are just a bunch of apes. Just like it should be - gorillas are mighty, but helpless agaisnt armed humans. :)
They are overpriced, large (thus prone to being swarmed) and not as tough, as, say, a Jotun giant to justify the drawbacks. P.S. Dont get me wrong, I dont consider Bandar Log pathetic anymore. Not with CBM, anyway. They are quite unique and fun. :) |
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I´m surprised to see LA atlantis considered weak, I think they´re awesome. Especially with the new mages giving them exactly what they lacked before.
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On Fomoria: I agree that they have SC potential. But - 1 eye. And their giant troops are really weak against any decent swarmers. I rushed them once and they just died... An alternative could be to use just Nemedians for expansion - but then, why not play a real Sidhe/Van nation?
ON Yomi: I think something like Tempering the Will may be useful. And they DO have useful troops in their goblins. It's only that Shinuyama is better - and there is fierce competition in EA... Monkeys are good enough, I think - except Patala with their strong, but overencumbered mages. And cold-blooded with Water magic, no less! On Agartha I may be wrong. But there are other Earth nations - with better troops. |
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Playing with Fomoria in Rand I never had an issue with the Fomorian Kings losing eyes...the helmetless giant sacreds did a fair bit, but the kings come with a helmet and can cast air shield. I took out Marverni pretty easily with them, but Mictlan's sacreds tore them up in melee. Luckily thunderstrike solved that problem pretty handily.
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Patala has encumbered mages?.. Change shape once, and they get rid of these plate hauberks, getting encumberance 4. :)
And water magic allows them to become frost-immune, negating cold-bloodedness. |
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Very easy to test, start as any cold bloded nation, give them +3 cold scales, and put a Ring of Frost on one of the commanders. You will see the +2 encumbrance effects of the severe cold disappear, but the unit will still be suffering from the +10 encumbrance caused by the cold blooded tag. |
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Frost immunity doesn't usually remove cold blooded. |
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Ah, my bad :) I didnt notice the nagaraja in question has robe of the sea instead of plate hauberk.
Anyway, I dont see how being cold-blooded is a fatal flaw. And your best mages arent wearing plate mail anyway. |
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EA Agartha is Good Actually.
Their troops do whats need to be done, and actually they are better than most, they have innate siege bonus and dont need to eat so you get a very decent chaff for late game allowing to siege any castle in 1 turn, even you can camp at an LA Ermor fort. With good hitpoints and cheap they last long enough to let your mages do their job. If thats a problem with early game you get troglodytes that do what pale ones cant. And their mages are so cool, powerful magics and giant. You also get your cheap mage for the research job. And the risen oracle pretender. Jontuns get a similar one but I dont know of other with SC potential and immortal. |
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The Hall of Honor says-
EA- Ermor, Abysia, Tir, Atlantis, Yomi, Oceania MA- TC, Argatha, Vanheim, Atlantis, Eiru, Bandar LA- Arco, C'tis, Atlantis, Bogorus I say- EA- All three water nations(insufficiently amphibious), Ermor, Arco, Abysia, Ulm Mid - Man Late - umm...well...um...err...most of them when compared to other ages or Ashen Empire, none of them when compared to each other? I dunno, i've never really been able to wrap my tiny brain around the skewed strategic situation presented by the late age killer dominion powers. ########## I've never played LA Atlantis, but i've fought them a few times and definitely do not consider them weak. Also as an amphibious nation with D/W they strike me as having better prospects than most of being able to hold their own against the two twilight powers. What exactly is wrong with the towering pile of whup that is EA Argatha? I know that they have many "annoyance features" , but their troops are tough, their top caster awesome, and their national summons useful and easily available. |
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Since I'm playing them currently, I'm curious why EA Atlantis is considered so bad. They are certainly not "insufficiently amphibious", since they don't have any aquatic only units. Basalt Kings are good thugs/borderline SCs.
Is it just because they lack Astral/Death/Blood for the late game? |
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