Mg 81
 

Anybody have any reliable data regarding the range on the Mg81? I hear a few were converted for ground use. Any idea what the ranges of those would be, in particular?

I have been looking at the data for the Mg15 and 17 as well as the Mg34 and 42 (Listed below). It seems to me the ranges on the 15 and 17 are awfully high in comparison to the 34 and 42.

In-Game Ranges:
15: 24
17: 30
34: 12
42: 12

Will the data for the Mg34 and 42 (1200 Metres, no?) suffice for an estimted range for the Mg81 in your opinions? How high would you rate accuracy and High explosive kill as well?

Thanks, in advance, to those of you who can help.

Re: Mg 81
 

You may want to look into the ranges some more - there are MANY MG34 and MG42, with different ranges, depending upon use.

Range 12 means 600m (12 hexes at 50m each), so those are probably the LMG entries.
MMGs should have longer range, and AAMGs even longer than that (I seem to remember that there's only one MG15 in the German OOB, and it's an AAMG).

And the MG17 is only available as an aircraft weapon, IIRC, so its range is actually irrelevant - aircraft only discern between range 1 (bombs) and more-than-1 (anything forward-firing).

Re: Mg 81
 

If I remember correctly there is a unit MG08/18 MMG could this be the MG81 you are looking for? I don't think that I have ever seen an MG81 do you have a picture or a link to a picture? Thanks.

Ken

Re: Mg 81
 

No, the MG08/18 was an improved version of the WWI-era MG08, while the MG81 was a WWII design (specifically, the last 8mm aircraft MG).

Anyway, I looked through the German OOB a bit..

apparently, all LMGs have range 12,
air-cooled MMGs have range 24
water cooled MMGs/"HMGs" have 30
AAMGs have 24
TMGs and CMGs have 24
BMGs have 10
the only 8mm aircraft MG has 30

Re: Mg 81
 

Thank for reminding me about the ranges again AMX. Thanks also for the quick check of the OOB. I intend the weapon to be in the light configuration so a maximum range of 600 is in order.

I assigned it an HE Kill value of 10, do you think that is alright. It did have a very high rate of fire - similar to that on the Mg42 and the ammo is pretty much the same.

Re: Mg 81
 

There is a drawing of an MG 81 converted for ground use on this webpage about maschinengewehr:

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust5.htm

Re: Mg 81
 

And this might be a photo of an MG 81 in use. Volkssturm on the Eastern Front, March 1945.

Link

Re: Mg 81
 

Hi RecruitMonty
Actually the air cooled MMG range of 24 is wrong.
These guns are inherently more accurate than the various Maxim copies fielded by other armies and also have a telecsopic sight.
Ive seen effective range quoted as 3000m, that would be 60 hexes.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Mg 81
 

Personally, I'd probably give it HE Kill 11 (as its ROF was supposed to be even higher than the '42s), Accuracy 16 (I seem to recall Don mentioning that ACC is based on barrel lenght, and that was a tad shorter).

@chuck: I'm referring to the pattern I see in the official files. If you believe that data to be unrealistic, you are welcome to suggest a better representation - but don't go around claiming that I am wrong.

PS: apparently, the water-cooled->range 30 thing holds true for CMGs, too - I missed weapon 113 (MG249(p) CMG).

Re: Mg 81
 

Hi AMX
Sorry for my poor english, My intention was to mention how the -game- has
the range wrong not your reporting of it.
However this site
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/ge...chine-gun.html
states that the MMG 34 has an effective range of 3500 on the laffette tripod . Thats 70 hexes, rather than the current 24. This would suggest to me that the tripod mounted MMGs should have a greater range than the AAMG's?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Mg 81
 

Accuracy of 16 eh... seems like a good idea. Increasing the HEK is also a pretty good idea. Thanks.

I wouldn't like to toy with the already existing range restrictions too much. If I do it with my Germans then I'll have to do it for everyone else and the data available seems to often contradict itself. I am also, at present, only interested in the light machine gun configuration for the Mg 81.

Re: Mg 81
 

Hi RecruitMonty
MGs 34 42 15 17 and 81 are all developments of the the origional MG30 of swiss origins and there seems to be very little diference between them. That said the most commonly listed effective range for 34 and 42s is, as you first stated, 24 hexes.
see http://www.wwiiguns.com/display_articles.php?id=9 for example.
So it is probably very acceptable to give the 81 this same effective range or thereabouts. 20 hexes perhaps, due to the shorter barrel and more central bipod arrangement.

If you do look at HMGs later then you might consider this. The standard rifle gets a range of 10 hexes, Sniper rifles get a range of 15 hexes, why, telescopic sight.
If we apply the same reasoning to the HMGs we get,
The standard HMG gets a range of 30 hexes, so the telescopic sighted HMGs -should- get a range of 45 hexes.
What the spcamo thinking is on the topic remains an unknown.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Mg 81
 

Why 45? Why not just say 35? Or just FC and RF bonus as the range is already plentiful enough? ;)

Re: Mg 81
 

Have been following this post & not quite sure what you are after but from what you said & links you posted.
Its going to be similar in game turns probably no noticable diffrence & if you have conflicting data just a fudge anyway.
The game treats all (I thhink) LMGs as range 12 its not the max range but the effective range.
From links has a short barrel so slow round & inacurate giving lower acc & range possibly there is a formula in a recent thread.
Has a high ROF possibly the highest but suffers from breakdowns if used.
So normal sort of kill factor or slightly higher if ignore breakdowns but then they are lugging around lots of ammo so perhaps speed should be 5 for the unit to represent.
If it is virtually identical in game turns cant see why you want though the German OOB is already full & there are already German squads that have weapons with identical capabilities but diffrent names, Panzermine3 & K come to mind

Re: Mg 81
 

The ranges in the OOB's now are what we decided years ago is suitable for the game so it should be obvious to all what "spcamo thinking is on the topic " is ( Even though we are no longer "spcamo" )




Chuck appears to be thinking that since a sniper rifle gets a 50% range bonus then "telescopic sighted HMGs" should get a 50% range bonus over standard HMG.


Don

Re: Mg 81
 

OK, based on what you guys have given me I have come up with the following:

ACC: 16
HEK: 11
Range: 12

I intend the weapon to be used as a Squad LMg (nothing else). Since you guys have been such an immense help here could I was wondering if you could take a quick look at this entry on the SIG-710 LMg's as well.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43332

Thanks guys, in advance.

Re: Mg 81
 

Hi Don
Ive had a bit of a dig around and this site gives a range for the tripod mounted MMG MG3 of 24 hexes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_MG3
Interestingly this range is for the gun on tripod and -without- the telescope.

So it appears in your game that you are only modeling the MG34 and MG42 in the MMG role where -no- telescope is fitted. However With the telescope it is a HMG, in fact with the telescope it is clearly the best HMG of the war.
Now I dont think that anyone is disputing that this telescopic HMG has a range of somewhere between 44 and 60 hexes.

So the question now becomes why is -the- key weapon in the German infantries OOB (Tripod mounted Telescope 34/42) -not- in the game.

The argument that it is an indirect fire weapon and so cant be modelled properly is a nonsense. It has a telescope, the target is in line of sight, it works the same way as a anti tank gun for example. A telescopic sight an elevation wheel and a traverse wheel.

So can we please let the German battalions have there HMG! after all nearly every picture you see of the gun mounted on a tripod has it with the telescope.

Note
The MG3 is close enough to the MG42 to be one.
This site
http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=au
Gives the MG3 an effective range 2200 on the tripod with telescope, this is with the nato 7.62mm round, the more powerful boat tailed 7.92 of the war would have a somewhat greater range.
The Vickers can fire out to 3000 yds in indirect fire mode but this does as far as I can gather appear to be some sort indirect artillery style sighting.
Ill get to your second request shortly RecruitMonty
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Mg 81
 

Show me where on these forums either Andy or I said that Chuck and I won't put you one step closer to being permanently banned.

Don

Re: Mg 81
 

I didnt say that you or andy provided that argument.

Re: Mg 81
 

Then why Chuck did you include it in your speel is if we had ? Who else comments on what can be modeled correctly in the game who actually KNOWS what can be accuratly modeled in the game besides Andy or I ?

In fact, lets take it a step further and show me where anyone on this forum has suggested what you said .

Don

Re: Mg 81
 

Its in its own paragraph and isnt attributed to anyone. I disagree that it looks as if it is a statement by either of you.
The statement is included because I am expecting the thread to be closed shortly so Im trying to make this thread as short as possible by refuting possible arguments before they are put. I am trying to get a -satisfactory- answer to my question before the thread is closed.
Anybody is free to comment on what they think can or cannot be modelled correctly. I can't tell you who might have commented on what they think might or might not be modelled correctly without searching the forum for such a comment made by such a person, and that will take me some time.
Only you and Andy but anyone is free to speculate as to what they think can be modelled. For example I am a C++ programmer which I beleive is the language your game is written in. As C++ is a very flexible language there is probably very little you cant model its just a question of wether the time required justfies the result.
Without having looked I think that this comment originated in the old DOS forum for your game. Again it would take some time to find said comment, and if my memory serves me well and it is in fact there then that poster may or may not be participating in this forum.

Now Ive amswered all your questions to the best of my ability so can you answer mine?
Why are the lafette tripod HMGs ommitted from the OOBs?

I mean Is it really that big an advantage that the Germans have a HMG that can reach out to 50 or 60 hexes that it cant be allowed in the game?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Mg 81
 

You can weasel around it all you like but you have not convinced me you were not trying to make it look like a statement to that effect as been put forward by someone resposible for the game and since the post starts off with " Hi Don " anyone reading it would think I had suggested this.

The reason your threads get closed is becasue you don't accept answers that you disagree with and both Andy and I and Shrapnel are well aware of how skillfully you walk just the other side of the line though had the new rules been in place some time ago you wouldn't be here now

The REASON the MG34/42s are not modeled as HMG's is becasue the tripod version was always modeled as a MMG and no consideration was given to the ranges it was capable of firing when the telescopic sight. I do not care one little bit if it was discussed on the "old DOS forum" becasue paid next to zero attention to what was said there in part becasue of people who were willing to argue on and on and on and on and what past for "moderators" let it happen


I am fully aware of the ranges the Mg34/42 was capable of firing from the Lafette with the telescopin sight but despite what you claim it was NOT set up with the sight normally even though photographs may give the impression it was



It's ultimate accuracy at those ranges with the ROF the Mg34 and even more so the Mg42 was capable of is debateable but if someone is trying to do is get a lot of rounds 2000+ yards DR in the same general area it was certainly capable of doing that and I have made a note to review this info whenever we decide to start work on the games again and perhaps add a HMG version.

Don

Re: Mg 81
 

Hi Don
If I might be allowed to poke my pointy little snout out of my burrow once more;
Your suggestion that 2000+ is the effective range for the 34/42 sounds right, in the reference you supplied it states this
"With ease the Lafette could with the sight launch a firestorm of bullets over 3 kilometers away"
also
http://homepage.eircom.net/~nightingale/mg42.html
MG34 2000m-3000m
MG42 3500m
http://www.wwiiguns.com/display_articles.php?id=9
MG34 3500m
http://www.gdrecon.co.uk/mg42.html
"this all weighed in at some 30 kg, but gave the operator accurate fire over 2miles. (3218m)"

You havn't confirmed wether the current MMG range of 24 is based on the MG3s' effective range when mounted on pintle/simple type tripod. Ive yet to see a WW2 gun on a pintle/simple mount, they all seem to be on lafette tripod. Because lafette tripod has its own recoil then the MMG version very likely has as good as or better effective range than the other regular WW2 pintle/simple mounted HMGs.

Looking at the other HMGs in the game there remains the anomaly of the 12.7mm calibre range.
All weapons of 12.7mm calibre get a range of 40 hexes, TMGs, CMGs, AA, HMGs.

It would seem sensible to drop these weapons range back to 30 hexes to give 34/42 HMGs the correct range relative to this category of weapon.

For the Russian weapon 124 "12.7mm DShK HMG"
from
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg03-e.htm
We have
"despite its weight, could not provide the necessary gun stability and vibration dampening for accurate long range fire"
For 12.7mm 50cal,
The range fo 40 hexes sometimes quoted is against 'area' targets, what this actually means I dont know but the regular 1500 range applies for 'point' targets.

7.62mm HMGs can also reach out to 40 hexes. So all HMGs in 7.62 and 12.7mm calibres should have the same range either 30 or 40. Both are firing over open sights and have rounds stable to 2000m.
50 cal has a ROF about 140rpm So these calibre weapons arnt capable of putting up the sustained fire that the 7.62 calibre HMGs do. They are closer to autocannons than HMGs.

Reducing the 12.7 to 30 is the better option as the 12.7mm calibre (40 hexes) would no longer out-range the 20mm calibre (30 hexes)
This change would also address a play-balance issue, the Allied 12.7 mm calibre outranging the Axis 20mm calibre.
After all most 20mm cannon would have telescopic/gun sights.
Best Regards Chuck

Re: Mg 81
 

The Mg34/42 MMG range is based on it use on a tripod without the telescopic sight.

Tell me Chuck, have you or have you not brought up the range of the 12.7/50 cal a number of times in the past....

Don

Re: Mg 81
 

Hi DOn
Well the question of MG34 range has certainly been brought up several times before and now finally in this thread that topic receives the attention it deserves.
I am hoping that this signifies the dawning of a new age or rapprochement, and in that frame of mind Im hoping that the 12.7m calibre might also get its correct range, 30 hexes.
That subject is discussed in this thread.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=32870
It a confusing thread but as far as I can make out no unrefuted justification for the 12.7 calibres extra range is given other than that it is a 'design' decision. Design decision still doesnt answer why the extra range is allowed.
I think its just a matter of someone seeing 2000m as the 50 cal area target range and not seeing the 1500m point range. And putting it in the game without any further thought, however as the game has evolved and especially since HMGs got the peculiar artillery style blast zone its become I think a major unwarrented advantage to the Allies vis a vee the Axis.
It might also have been mentioned elsewhere I cant be sure but its clearly incorrect, "hisorically"
Best regards Chuck