Scouting/Recon
 

Hi everyone, just wondering some good tactics/techniques for employing scout troops and scout vehicles?

Mostly, I send them ahead and they get killed. how can I employ the scouts to be stealthy and hopefully spot out some enemy before dying?

do scout vehicles get any advantage to spotting or being stealthy? (cuz it sure doesnt seem like it)

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

I'll start with the easy part. Scouts and scout/recon vehicles have no special ability that allows them to see enemy units any better or faster than any other similar type unit. The names given to them are more associated with their roles than anything special, i.e., jeep and scout jeep are the same thing and spot the same way.

Now on to how to use them or more specifically, how I use them. Others might do things differently. If the battle is long enough, you can send out infantry scouts in advance of your forces. Since they are size 0 and infantry squads are size 1, they will more often than not spot the enemy before getting spotted. You can't move the scouts up too fast, however. Move at least one hex less than their maximum speed. Anything moving fast gets spotted easier.

If the battle is relatively short, 20 turns or less, I use my infantry scouts to cover flanks or areas where I don't have many units. I use a typically use a 100x100 map so 20 turns is short for that size, IMHO. Should you see the enemy moving where you don't have troops, you can shift in reserves, gunships, what have you or just let them go past. Depends on what might be in your rear area you don't want them to get to.

With scout/recon vehicles, mine get popped, too. They are just a quick way to find out if the path is clear before more important stuff gets there. Being smaller in size than a tank, they might just survive and you just retreat them out. They did what they were supposed to do, find the enemy.

In campaigns, I usually take scouts out of support points since they do get clobbered a lot. If you do have them in your core and they get more experience, they will spot better, but that applies to any unit.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

I'll have butter on mine, please :D

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

:popcorn:

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Scout units get no bonus for being scouts apart from do normaly com with plus 3 on exp mor. If you are lucky they may see fractionally better than other units but assume not. Foot scouts are harder to see as they are normally size 0 & scout vehicles size 2 are your best bet.
Requires a bit of practice but judge the point of contact & get there quickly unseen. Now generally either stay put or move very slowly seeing & being seen are modified by the units speed stationary being the best.
You can use individually on a hill but a MG or ATGM could probably do just as well, otherwise teams or working with other units so someone sees the firer. If they are the target probably to busy staying alive to see who shot.
Scout vehicles I tend to use more for finding the main thrust of the attack, looking more for vehicles if see infantry thats a bonus but its probably time to leave. Again rush ahead & park in cover on the edge of woods etc. They need a safe exit route but reduce weapon range with Y key or Op Filter & so long as they remain stationary & dont fire should be safe at distances over a KM from detection by vehicles. Stay as long as you dare & bug out.
There role is info gathering do not get them caught up in the fight unless it is a choice target. there aim is to make everybody elses job easier.
If you are doing recon at speed then you will be seen & may as well do recon in force with squads as they have more firepower & survivability.
The main thing is overwatch if you are detected & fired on several units should have eyes in the area, more eyes more chance of seeing who fired. Then pop smoke or let the other units return fire.
As Gila said try a search it has been covered to death, a bit like your scouts.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Imp pretty well covered it but to make it short and simple :

Reduce firing range on scout type units to 0 to 150m (0 to 3 hexes).

As quickly as possible get them into an overwatch position.

Stay stationary and non-firing as long as possible.

If spotted run to an alternate position out of line-of-sight.

The real "key" or "secret" is overwatch, Overwatch, OVERWATCH.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

In the original SP, Vehicles of the class scout DID get a searching bonus.
They searched at the same percentage as Infantry instead of as vehicles.
I don't know if that was changed. Everybody says it has, but I haven't found anything in writing that says it has.
In the beginning, the base number for searching depended on the unit class.
The highest was Infantry, then vehicles, then aircraft. IIRC, the first modifier was moving or ready. I think the % was cut in half if moving, then another cut if the fast moving flag was set (If the unit has used more then 1/2 it's MP's that turn, a fast moving flag is set and that unit is penalized when searching or shooting. Then there are modifiers for Experience, if the unit being 'searched' is moving, it's experience, terrain, visibility, suppression etc.
Putting a leg scout in place is a two turn project at the minimum. 3 turns is better.
You move the vehicle transporting your unit to within 1 hex of where you want your scout and dismount the scout. Next turn move the vehicle away, LEAVE THE SCOUT ALONE. You want your scout to sit a turn so the fast moving flag will go off. Then you move your scout into the hide.
Course, you don't always have time to do this.
If you have to do a rolling scout, then get the smallest scout team you have ( 2 or 3 men max) and the vehicle with them most MP's that will carry them. Then you drive along, unloading the scouts ever hex or so, to see if the draw fire. If they don't, load them back into their vehicle and redo until you are out of MP's.
Example; you have a spiffy Hubmobile Mk II with 28MP's and a 2 man scout team inside. You move them down a road 4 hexes, costing 4MP's. Then you unload your scouts. You now have 22 MP's left. load the scouts back up (nobody shot at you, which doesn't mean nobody is there, just that they didn't shoot at you) and your down to 20 MP's. move 4 more hexes down the road and unload the scouts. you now have 14Mp's. That means you can do one more evolution and have 6 MP's left. Notice I'm moving 4 hexes per evolution? That is because there is a searching step a 4 hexes. Searching IS NOE ( Was Not?) linear. It used a gate system IIRC the ranges were 4 12, 20 and >40. Not sure if it still works that way, since it seldom matters. Except for the under 4 hexes. that was the step for ready Infantry searching any moving unit >size 1 at 99%.
Let's see, you still have 6 MP's. You can stretch out your next evolution to 6 hexes, since you can always unload, even if you don't have the MP's to do so, or you can do the standard 4, or sometime, if there is a good place to hide close, if you move less then 3, you can unload and still be able to move your vehicle away from the scout.
Now if I'm wrong on any of this, I'm sure it will be pointed out, then we will both know how it is being done in the latest version.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

It never ceases to amaze me how in depth people get with the game mechanics. I consider myself quite observant & watch what happens. As it turns out the human brain is a marvelous thing & when people say how does this work you realise that a basic understanding has been tucked away. You may well be right on search mechanics but for me personaly I want to understand the rudementary mechanics rather than reducing it very much to a game & taking advantage of the system underneath as this spoils the game IMHO. All to our own though but for the likes of me & simplicity moving bad, faster worse:D

For possible thought on your leap frog scout.
They are expensive compared to a squad & unlike a squad a 2 man team is nearly useless if it loses a man. doing this is subjecting it to danger so yes might only get one unload but at least the squad is more likely to be useful after.
I only say this because he is fast moving so fire at is dangerous & the question was how do I keep my scouts alive. I would suggest this wont help though agree on some maps you have to do something like this or make progress very slowly.
The question you should ask is will the possible loss of the unit be worth the info gained, if so its a go.
As a last point try & remember your lead units smoke status & if your vehicle has dischargers consider driving to expected contact point & poping them before unloading if no other cover is available.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Imp, as we say in America, "Your mileage may vary". That comes from the EPA estimate on the Monroney sticker of a new vehicle.
I can't think of anything in SP that works every time, all the time.
So which technique you use varies from situation to situation. Matching technique to situation is a key to success in SP.
So obviously, the more techniques you have in your tool box, the better your chance of having the right tool for the job. Experience is the best teacher for knowing which tool fits best with which job.
Throw in some terrain, weather (the rain, snow and wind kind), an uncooperative opponent and it's gets interesting.
Speaking of which, I'm down to 247 slots. They are going, although not as fast as they could. Get your's now and avoid the end of summer rush.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Now that would be some kinda commitment! 250 games going all at once.

I have a one turn per week PBEM going on, and I'm preparing a map for another one.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Look at it this way.
If it were real life we'd be using what works in real life.
Since it's a game we use what works in game.

Most of us try to avoid "pure" gamey stuff (bug, rule, game mechanic exploits) but we have to do what works in the game not necessarily what works in real life.

The game mechanics give a rather large bonus to spotting moving units. I can tell you from real life it's very difficult to spot a couple guys moving at all cautiously at 50m much less the 2,3, 500 the game allows for.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

If winSPMBT was a board-game and you were sticking to the "rudimentary mechanics" and not "taking advance of the system" you would actually be playing the game (BTW it is a game eh!:)) without full knowledge of its rules or the intent to use them. Of course you play the game as you wish (heck it's a hobby after all) but in my book game rules are the "soul" of games. Now, the computer handles the "arithmetic" of it all and eventually, if you keep playing the game, you may develop an instinct for it, which in essence is a form of "discovering" the underlying rules. Believe me, I understand your "spirit" on the issue. But sometimes I miss a clear-cut "traditional" rulebook ... it can save you time and time can be a scarce commodity...

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Here is the source of the confusion. WinSPWW2/WinSPMBT, scouts have no extra spotting ability or ability to stay hidden (aside from that inherit with being a size 0 unit). In SPWaW, a similar competitive product, recon units do receive a 25% spotting bonus. Since many people play both games, a certain degree of confusion occurs.

While I don't know all the details, it seems that the development teams for both the WinSP games and the SPWaW game originally worked for one single company. That company was responsible for the original DOS version of the game. Somewhere along the line, creative differences or something along those lines created a split and two independent competitive businesses. Don and Andy know more about it than I do. The long and short of it is with two similar games, sometimes the line blurs a bit and it is difficult to remember which game does what when it comes to the little details.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Understand all your points on game mechanics as I say everyone to his own.
Myself I like to know what does what & for complex stuff which this game is not some detail. As its mainly a tactical than rule driven game discovering how to do the stuff is half the fun. I could have a chart that says a tank with FC/RF XX etc will have a hit chance of approximatly XX but its more fun to fudge it. Still forget & take a silly shot but generally just do what seems to work. For instance on the occasions I turn a units range down normally use 3 not because I knew there was a step there but because it seemed to work. Now I know why & in fact had probably figured it out without realising.

C of Red my quota is full at present but we can certainly have a bash once one ends.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

So you are saying that scout VEHICLES are treated as ordinary vehicles in the Cammo games? In effect, there is no unit class of 'scout' in the Cammo group versions of SP. Why is that? After all, the three most important things in land warfare are recon, recon and recon.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

I would say its because of the way the vehicle is used that makes it scout, going slowly & observing. They get very marginal boosts to represent dedicated scouts are probably above average soldiers but thats it. How exactly does an identical vehicle say a jeep all of a sudden gain the ability to see better because its a scout than the standard one?
Dare I say you have only just realised so you must have thought they were doing okay but in fact its because you were using them in a scout role that you percieved they could see better.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

I can't answer the why part. It's just how they opted to set it up, I guess. All I know for sure is that is how it works. As Imp pointed out, they do come with a bit more experience so they would spot slightly better than the average size 0 unit but in the Cammo games, that's about it. The vehicle is nothing more than a quicker way to get to their scouting location. It would be nice to drive you jeep where you want to go and just bail out and take up a position on foot. Unfortunately, that doesn't work.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Jeeps, like armored cars, scout cars, etc have crews. I assume that the crew of a scout vehicle has been trained on observations techniques and has practiced those techniques until they are better at them then the average GI.
Sort of like why in the game a crew has to remount it's own vehicle, or why a rifle squad cannot grab the Sagger left laying on the ground after it's crew got mowed down several turns ago.
Scouting is a skill set, an MOS, 19D according to this;
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjobs/a/19d.htm

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

What at first was called SP2WW2 started development in January 1998 and was released early December later that year. We started working in direct co-operation with what was then known as "TGN" around the end of October 1998 "SPCAMO" resumed working independently at the time WaW started development in the summer of 1999 with WaW version 1 being released in 2000. Who worked on our version is detailed in the Game Guide. Anyone really interested in who worked on both can check the WaW GG . You could call it "creative differences". I have other terms but that is all in the past now and I have no interest in getting into it again. And yes, with two similar games and thousands of people playing both, there will be some confusion about some things.

I will deal with the "scout" question when I have more time but I will say now that the "scout vehicle" class wasn't even defined in the original SP2 code so any "magical qualities" anyone thinks it had are mythical. YES there was a "Scout Vehicle" in the game but all the code knew about was it's name.

Don

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

When you get time you can post an example of "a couple guys ", "moving at all cautiously " that are easily spotted" at "the 2,3, 500 the game allows for" if those couple of guys don't do something dumbass like fire their weapons.

I have an example of scouts spotting the majority of the stationary enemy units after they moved towards them and only two units were spotted and fired on. One at 150 yards and one at 50 and had I had arty support I could have beaten the crap out of them and they would have had no clue where the fire was being called from and that's with a high visibility in a height 1 field not a height three tall grass

Don

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

My last unit was 2/12 Cav, so I'm familiar with what they do. The basic question comes down to simply spotting opposing forces. An enemy force moving in traveling, traveling overwatch, bounding overwatch formations, etc., isn't any more likely to be spotted by a scout than by an average joe. Identifying what has been spotted is more in tune with the training, but that item is rendered moot within the game. If you see it, you know what it is.

Training is also more in tune with avoiding being spotted while scouting. In the game, it's up to the code and how the player moves the unit. You might have an argument here that scouts should be more difficult to spot, but leg scouts are already size 0.

And there are a whole host of other aspects of scout training that don't have anything to do with looking for the enemy. An example would be evaluating routes for heavier assets following behind. It wouldn't do well to have an M1A2 come up to a bridge that wasn't able to handle it's weight. Even that aspect is moot in the game. All bridges handle all tanks. In game terms, what is really left that makes a scout different than regular units?

If you want details on what scouts do, at least in the US Army, here is are links to FM 7-92 and FM 17-98:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...001/index.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-98/index.html

Nothing classified in these or they wouldn't be on the internet.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

All I can say to you is I know scouts in the game can behave as scouts do in reality spotting the enemy and remaining unseen if handled correctly WITHOUT having to resort to coded "eyeball GSR"

Don

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

They work perfectly well if used as intended, as said the one benefit they have over a squad is they are harder to detect.
The majority of my scouts normaly survive so long as I do not ask to much of them.
Trying to get all the way to a rear area or take out a tank help a unit in at tricky situation is what gets them killed. Urban warfare & jungles to but they are dangerous locals period.

A point & I may be wrong but scouts generally do have better chance to spot than a squad. Most scout units are in effect a squad the game has split into 2 half squads to aid it in said mission so man for man blah blah.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

From experience scout units and scout vehicles work very well. Usually against my forces, but they do work. Sometimes it feels like they are a bit too good, but that is perhaps not the most accurate way of explaining it. When I have two mech platoons walker over a scout inf unit over say 3 turns, all of them dismount and look around, and none of them detect the scouts, then I don't know how you say it, but I say the scout units work.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Sorry, I was not meaning to imply scout (or for that matter any size 0 or 1 unit) was easily or often spotted at longer ranges, just that is does happen.

As for a test an easy one is to do an assault scenario and buy a bunch of AI controlled scout or infantry units. Set your units to fire at very short range (if at all) then just sit there and watch the AI units advance on your positions.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

That's becasue the AI does not move at one or two hexes per turn like a human would trying to sneak in. ( thought everyone knew this.....) In the AI's universe the point of scouts is to get a response from the enemy so that artillery ( and other weapons and units )can be applied. If they get in close so much the better and they are coded not to move closer than 1 hex from a KNOWN position but it's apples and oranges comparing the way the AI uses scouts and the way a human would

Don

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

One problem with your test Suhiir, most of those leg units will get spotted because they are moving as fast as possible across open terrain. Its the movement that gives them away basic animal programing war or otherwise if it moves it could be a threat so we automatically scan that area better to confirm what we thought moved did.
Repeated DRGs point sorry

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Good point about the movement speed.

However...
How often is a scenario long enough for you to be able to move that slowly?

This is another of those "game" VS "RL" issues that really has no "answer".

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

I've been experimenting with scouts a bit and I agree that scout squads can manage to be sneaky but scout vehicles cant.

Thermal sights should make a world of difference, not just add more hexes to sight range. recon is an important part of mobile warfare and a scout unit should be adept at movement to contact, spotting and ID of enemy and disengagement.

im trying to discover the 'safe' speed for vehicles to move without always being detected.

I also think some of sizes need revision.

example: Canadian Forces (with which im familiar).

M113 size 3
LARV Coyote size 5
Leopard C3 size 5

hmmmm. dunno about that.....

I would put a LAV around size 4, but thats just me and im not even sure how much that would help either.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

That's a very good point. One thing that I've noticed is scenarios in WinSPMBT tend to be shorter than WinSPWW2. As such, I use scouts to cover flanks more than anything.

It could just be circumstances since my last seven WinSPMBT campaign battles have all been "meeting engagements". The last one was 16 turns long so averaging 2 hexes per turn on a 100x100 map, my scouts wouldn't even clear the area between deployment zones. My longest scenario has been 22 turns. All of them have been computer generated lengths and I don't change the lengths. I view the times as being set by my higher command and not by "right" to change. That's just my preference.

In WinSPWW2, "meeting engagements" seem to run 25 turns long and often over 30 turns. With that kind of time, I actually can use scouts for recon purposes.

It is possible to shorten distance scouts have to move by giving them a ride out some distance. Two turns riding will save a scout almost ten turns cautiously walking. You just have to be careful where the scout unloads. If it is in the open, the enemy might watch your scout move every step of the way.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

With those sizes, I think you will find it hard to be sneaky. More than anything, I would look for cheap and fast in a recon vehicle. It would probably be good to buy it out of support points also. I don't like to have units that get zapped frequently in my core, but that's my opinion.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Vyrago
The game uses a very simplified model with regards to vision aids, there main advantace apart from range is the ability to see through terrain units without cant. The problem of course is finding this terrain to get the benefit.
On vehicles depends on terrrain cover & whos watching but 1 or 2 hexes is about it to stand a chance of staying hidden. Not to mention you might not get noticed because the other player was moving but at the start of his turn they are not anymore & there you are.
As you say "a scout unit should be adept at movement to contact, spotting and ID of enemy and disengagement."
The ID part everybody in the game is good at, intrestingly in the links RERommie posted no mention of exceptional or any spotting skills are mentioned evasion etc is.
But those parts are down to you the player to carry out.

There use in the game is questionable anyway certainly for MBT in my view they represent part of your regular force who are out having a look not the specialists.
The specialists like any special forces should be several maps ahead observing & directing your main force onto the enemy. I have no military service but would say they locate & fall back or go to ground trying to gather as much info on the enemy force as possible & evading all combat.
The people you use in the game are looking for contact points final confirmation & are not realy scouts at all.
WW2 due to lack of vehicles or there speed, poor radios etc scouts are a lot closer to the main force but still way out front.

Try playing a game as just a scout formation move up locate, perhaps calling in air arty but not attacking directly that seems more to me what scouts do. If the scout formation comes with ATGMs or whatever you might take the odd shot & relocate but getting involved in a plolonged fire fight is an absolute no.

I often do not use scouts at all though I always used to have 2 per company, just find there role can be filled by most units & indeed has to be because your scouts in the wrong place.

On RERommies point stuff dies much faster on modern battlefields, both armour & infantry plus more transport higher speeds all makes for a shorter game overall.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

OF COURSE "scout vehicles" cannot manage to be "sneaky" any more than any other vehicle of comparable size. Do they get some cloak of invisibility because they may have extra surveillance gear ? A Coyote is 6.39 m. long and 2.69 m high. Please explain how something 20 feet long and nearly 9 feet high is going to be any "sneakier" on the battlefield than anything else that size just because it's a "scout" vehicle ??

It has good eyes with a 45 vision, you get it to where it can see what you want it to see then you wait for the enemy to appear and if you need to do foot recon for that ideal location then you sent out foot scouts not fart about "sneaking" around with the vehicle because something that big just isn't built to "sneak". If you need to get though to the edge of the tree line you do it one hex at a time and that will reduce your chances of being seen while moving.

Most "scout vehicles" in the game are just something to carry scouts in. If they have better vision then so much the better doing recon but they are not any harder to detect when moving or standing still.


Don

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

I think "scout vehicles" is deceiving and a misnomer they are too easily spotted and should be used as mop-up or flank guards only IMO.
Foot scouts seem to do the job well as they are intended (2 man teams are best) as long as they are stealthy.
Back to lurk mode on this subject:D

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Okay on scout vehicles I have said before sometimes against a human play with a house rule for first 2 or 3 turns only your scout formations can move.
When do this or play as scouts/special forces the vehicles are mainly to get you there & for extraction if things get a bit hot. If the terrain allows they can help fill gaps in your survelance. Changes the nature of the game & sometimes allow a Mech platoon or similar to accompany them. Look at formations & see what they use.

Just like you would be mad to use helos on a map with no cover using a vehicle to watch for the enemy would be insane on the same map. You treat them just like your FOO vehicles they only take up positions where they have an exit route & that you judge reasonably safe. In woods for instance with a view of say 30+ hexes, the further the better. If you cant arrive there moving very slowly its probably not safe & normally what you do is drop the leg guys off & let them take up the position. But there may be another useful nearby location.
Cmon guys whats a scout going to do drive at speed to the top of a hill & stop or get to the hill fast & then make a cautious aproach on to it. I would assume the second as option one means hes a lucky son of a Gun or dead. Even if hes out of range steel rain is on the way.
Low visibility & a vehicle with vision aids now you can look at the situation & role the dice.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

This is my last post on the subject as its going nowhere, the last post was to explain why some units are called scout vehicles, mainly because they are in scout formations.
What exactly do you guys want your scouts to be able to do?
Within the limited confines of the game I think they fill there role just fine, both foot & vehicle. The game tries its best to represent units in a realistic maner meaning your best bet is often to use them in the same maner. Your snipper for example tends to live a lot longer if he stays back & takes the odd important shot instead of leading the assault.

Once the invisible vehicle is perfected you can be sneaky with vehicles but guess what going fast will still get it killed in real life. Why it will throw up dust etc disturb the terrain make noise & will really only be an asset against poorly equiped armies as thermal vision or some other counter will become common.

The simple solution is not to ask to much of them & give them objectives they stand a chance of achieving. Charging headlong at an unseen enemy is not wise & quite why a scout should survive better than a regular unit is beyond me.

For those of you that want an RTS aproach I suggest editing scouts to 160+ exp.
Do remember to dumb down there weapon accuracys & or FC etc or they will be crack shots to. Dont forget to run them through the cost calculator as they will now probably be at least twice as expensive as the vanilla unit.
They do however now I think do all the things better you are after in a scout unit. Namely see hide & evade better

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Depending on the map, I may or may not have scouts. If there is no place to hide, why try? Just send in a suicidal HUMV or load up the cavary. Sometiems the most effective scouts are the APCs and utility vehicles that are left burning in the field. They found the enemy, and he can take xxx kinds of vehicles, that's all you need to know. Not only that, but they can provide cover too. :)

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Imp, Rommel recommends 200 meters between the point and his support, with the main body another 200 meters behind that. That is assuming you have the visibility to keep the point in sight. I will look in Von Luck's book and see what he says. I think it was about the same except in the Desert where the spacing was more. IIRC, that was for tactical recon. Operational recon is handled with different units then we have available. Those are outside the scope of SP, except maybe SP3. I never really got into SP3. I felt Tac Ops was a better operational level game, even if it was more limited as far as equipment and intangibles. Not to mention the OAW, which was even better then TO.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

"That's a very good point. One thing that I've noticed is scenarios in WinSPMBT tend to be shorter than WinSPWW2. As such, I use scouts to cover flanks more than anything."

I have always wondered if that was because AFAIK, WinMBT is a port of SP3, which had a different time and space scale. In SP3, a hex is 200 Meters and a turn is 5 to 6 minutes as opposed to 50 meters and 2-3 minutes. In SP3 most of the random game lengths worked out to be about the same as they are in Win MBT. I wonder if that block was left alone.
IMHO it would mess up the playability of the game to have the SP norm of 20-30 turns be the MBT norm. Longer ranges, higher speeds and smaller ammo supplies would put logistics back into the forefront.
Logistics is more of an operational level thangie then tactical. IIRC, Ammo resupply was one of the first things added to SP. That and the extra shot. Back in the day, if you shot all your available shots for that turn, then you couldn't op fire.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

winSPMBT is from SP2 not 3 as far as I know.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

I have always wondered if that was because AFAIK, WinMBT is a port of SP3, which had a different time and space scale.

WinSPMBT is most definitely NOT a port of SP3. Refer to Don's post earlier in this thread. Lineage is SP2--> SP2WW2--> SPWW2--> SPMBT--> WinSPMBT + WinSPWW2.

Regards,
Warwick

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Drifting off topic some more. My understanding is that the main reason SPMBT scenarios are shorter than SPWW2 is that the WWII squaddies get to march into battle while their grandsons (and daughters) get to ride. SPMBT tanks are faster, APCs are faster and helicopters are insanely quick by WW2 standards so it makes sense to use a reduced turn count. The reduced turn count also maintains the tempo of the scenario. An aggressive balls to the wall advance on a high value v-hex cluster might take 20 or 25 turns in WW2. To give the player the the same sense of an all out rush in MBT you have to drop the turn count to 10 or even less.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

WinSPMBT is NOT "a port of SP3" :banghead READ THE $#!*! GAME GUIDE! that question is answered in the very first line right below "What is WinSPMBT?"

Don

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Now Don, take a deep breath.

You know most people don't read documentation completely through. Mostly, they read what they want to know and skip over other stuff. I wrote a series of programs over five years ago, complete with support documentation. Whenever something went wrong, I was pulled in even though how to handle the situation was clearly explained in the docs. I even sent the docs to them every single time they had issues, but next time they would just pull me in again. You can provide the information, but can't make people read it.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

Maybe there is something wrong with my copy then I normally accept turns & vision as they come. Low 20s is common higher in low visibility slow terrain like jungle urban snow. I would say the game looks at several factors & adjusts accordingly. Including quite possibly combatants, Vietnam war for instance tends to be longer possibly because it expects more leg units.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

This is my understanding as well.
Assuming motorized/mech/whatever forces and maueuver vs "assault" warfare I have zero issues with the increased tempo (read - shorter game length) of WinSPMBT.
Some, in fact most, "official" scenarios will take this into account and be designed with a longer game length to give time for infantry warfare. Unfortunately "player vs computer" games do not. The "problem" is the game assumes mobile forces and does not, in fact due to coding probably can not, deal well with foot mobile forces.
This "problem" is, I believe, somewhat exagerated by the fact that infantry mobility/spotting/fire is basically the same in all versions of the game. And there's no real reason it should be different. Basic infantry tactics and mobility really havn't changed much since WW II.

To recap...scenario designers can, and often do allow extra time for infantry scouting, the AI does not.

The real questions are :
Is this a big enough problem to try to come up with a solution?
Is any solution easily enough coded into the game to be worth the effort?

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

I believe the time differential is a bit over stated. Yes, modern troops get to the broken end of the bottle faster, but slugging matches especially where infantry is concern, isn't going to be. Armor may be faster, but infantry has a longer reach. Fast can be translated into reckless and lead to a lot of tanks and APCs dying quickly.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

EXACTLY !

I think - and I stress this is a personal opinion - that WinSPMBT indirectly encourages reckless banzi charges and high casulty battles.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

I'll let the other person be reckless. The flags aren't worth enough to sacrifice expensive armor trying to capture them.

Re: Scouting/Recon
 

I agree the flags certainly in MBT should be worth a lot more. bothering to adjust them to there max which is still nowhere near in later years is not worth it as very time consuming as all have to be done individually in small increments.
For this I like Weasel & Kiwis (sorry if credited wrong) scoring sheet over at the Blitz as it does 2 things.
Firstly it addresses the spirit of the flags as objectives by giving them a far bigger role in the outcome of the victory, they could be worth zero but you still need them.
Secondly it gives a greater variety to victory types with 9 instead of 5 outcomes.

Not going for the flags because you are going to run into the second line of defence sort of for me takes away the spirit of the game & against the AI is pointless. Taking up position & waiting for it to come to you with little effort to move forward till you have spent several turns destroying in a meeting means you are playing a delay so of course you win. Then go & mop up what flags are safe. I am not saying you should not take up positions but you should also be pushing forward somewhere, it is.

I am not going to post there take on victory outcomes as have not consulted but it can be found at theblitz.org