Engineers VS Fortifications
 

This thread is ment to get some discussion going on the subject.

We've all had to assault fortifications from time-to-time.

1) First any infantry unit has to pass a morale check.
2) Then the rule of thumb is (% chance of success = number of men in an infantry unit) (x2 if engineers).

Since most infantry squads are around 8-10 men, as are engineer squads this gives a 8-10% (or 16-20%) chance of a sucessful assault.

I'm wondering if engineer units should have a higher chance of success?

There's probably not much that could be easily done to increase their chance of passing the morale check (tho I've been giving engineer units a morale bonus for this, and other, reasons).

But they currently get double the chance for a sucessful assault. Don't get me wrong, this IS a significant advantage. But I'm wondering should it possibly be higher? x4 would (IMHO) be too much...but perhaps x3 would be reasonable as such units are normally specially trained and equiped for bunker busting.

Opinions?

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

I have no idea how it works (dont want to know) but if assault with a DC or suitable weapon assume it increases the chance.
From playing general note on how to assault bunkers.
Move adjacent any attack vs will not have a good chance as moving so do not assualt unless that units goal is to suppress. Depending on the situation if only moved one hex & the bunker is badly suppressed it may be worth risking an assault.
Really for a good chance of success start adj to it hit it with lots of firepower to suppress. Adjacent units can use the W key to select flamethrower or demo charge rather than assaulting. Now if that did not kill it esp if used FT the next attack has a very good chance of destroying it as probably routed or close to.
Doing it like this taking your time means 2 bunker busting type weapons DC FT etc will generally kill it, possibly one. Even if the bunker is very heavy & beyond your weapons capabilities you will start getting kill results on the men inside. It will soon fall but no need to wait just hit it hard & they will run out & surrender rather than wait for the next burst of flame to come through the slit.
The key is static or at the very max 1 hex move firer & suppressed damaged target, much like against a vehicle this improves your chances no end & a grenade can finnish the job.
Getting to eager & going for a kill attack before you are ready means its likely to fail so your unit is suppressed, if he is still suppressed next go thats another turn with a poor kill chance so do not assault it until its badly suppressed.
If you like think of as engineers make there way to bunker then takes them a few moments to get in position near a slit/entrance & send something through rather than a hasty lob.
Guessing on 2 attacks average to kill but not far off & helps presserve DC FT as you dont have loads, hope that helps

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

In the age of modern weaponry, is an engineer the best option anymore?

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

No a tank can do the job most times or an RPG if talking later years.

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

That was my thought. By the time you get to about 1955, there are infantry AT weapons and tank guns capable of handling fortifications at something other than point blank range from the flanks or rear. The front is almost always vulnerable due to openings for weapons, but you also get shot at from those angles.

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

Everything said so far matches my observations as well.

I guess I wasn't clear in my first post as I was specifically speaking of assulting fortifications not just how to destroy them.

Sorry bout that.

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

Actually, it was clear. We just kind of wandered off course :)

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

So going back to my previous post if it tries on its own will probably fail.

If however it gets a bit of support hence if you like disracting the occupants or preps with a DC FT its self first it will probably succeed.
If it starts the turn adj & the bunker is suppressed the assualt will probably work definetly if 2 units do unless roll snake eyes.

Therefore the % seems fine no prep work support is a disaster but a bit of planning & job done either by assault or possibly use of weapons before even need to. Any easier & there is little point having them IMHO
having said that I do hate spidy holes.

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

And this is exactly why I brought the subject up.
I cannot speak for US Army, Russian, German, or anyone elses small unit tactics - but in the USMC we're taught that the average bunker can, and should, be assulted by a squad sized force.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I've never noticed that state of supression to have any effect at all on the chance of success of an assault.

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

[quote=Suhiir;698988]I think the point is that the fortification is less likely to interfere with the assault, i.e. firing at the assaulting unit, if it's suppressed. If the fortification isn't defending itself, half of the battle is won.

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

I could be totaly wrong as I observe what happens & make judgement calls rather than test but in my view.

Vehicles bunkers & quite possibly infantry to a lesser degree are more susceptable to an attack if badly suppressed, routed even worse.
Yes they have less more inacuate shots but that is not what I am talking about.
The game also factors in IMHO the fact that someone can slip through the net as they are now not very observant.
Taking vehicles bunkers.
Attack a good order one with a handgrenade & the chances are nothing happens.
If its suppressed or better still routed that handgrenade might just do something.
If its damaged as well you now stand a good chance of it going bang.

Thats why the first attack often fails but if you assault twice in the same turn the second will often get it. If it does not & its routed the next will no matter what the weapon unless you are very unlucky. Because they just strolled up & placed it nicely because no ones looking.

In early WW2 often this is your only option to take out a tank as you have no inf AT weaponary so you swarm it, well so long as they dont decide to run instead.

I would say routed troops die easier to & so probably do pinned ones as it seems common throughout the game.
A decent experience vehicle crew will try & evade an ATGM it sees coming but not if its buttoned for instance. High experience troops seem to take less damage from fire because I assume they do the same to simulate using cover better & pass the die roll more often.

I could be totaly wrong but the combat status of a unit seems to play a large factor to me. Experience does to as not only do they shoot better but they evade better till pinned at least making high exp vehicles very worth while vs SAMs ATGMs.
Your proposed exp boosts for air will be more than worth any extra cost not because they shoot see better but because they evade better & will often slash the SAMs to hit chance by a 1/3rd or more.

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

Not so much "more susceptable to an attack" as likly to recieve more damage from a sucessful attack due to their state of supression.

And while it's true a supressed bunker isn't going to shoot back es effectively, or possibly at all, it can still take many many turns worth of attenpted assults to actually destroy them.

I rarely see bunker crews route...it happens...but VERY rarely from what I've observed. Perhaps it has something to do with my unit being adjacent causing the crew to not bail out...no idea...

Morale and experience definately are a factor but I was looking more at the "base" chance rather then any specific modifications due to nationality, equipment, morale, experience.

Re: Engineers VS Fortifications
 

Only stating what I see to be honest had no idea engineers got an assault bonus at all but from when I first start attacking a bunker with a view to killing it barring outside interference I would expect it to be dead in 2 turns. On occasion 1 will be very resiliant but some fall straight off to. Using regular troops it can drag on but engineers have no problems dispatching reasonably quickly. The hard bits getting them there in the first place & keeping them in good order for a solid attack:D
No they dont route often but if its being problomatic you can force the issue & because you are adjacent so probably have cut off its escape route it often just surrenders.

If you just attack a bunker with one unit each turn & no support it gets to attempt recovery between each attack so any suppresion could well be mild. If you hit it hard on the first turn or even before going for the kill one attack will probably keep it heavily suppressed.
Applies to any attack hit a unit hard enough that its heavily suppressed & all you need to do after is take a shot at it after to keep it that way.