Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Hi everyone,

I've owned Dominions for about a week, and I'm still learning the basics (though I've played every other 4x game).

I've played several games now, using many different stratagies. I usually do well for a time, but then every nation declares war on me and they wear me down. No diplomacy? Seems odd.

Last night I played Ermor for the first time. I had no idea what it was like, but fortunately I gave myself 10 Dominion and 10 Death magic - along with an imprisoned pretender.

Once I figured out what was going on, I expanded rapidly. Then I kept expanding rapidly. They I wiped out every other nation and won the game before my pretender even woke up.

Granted, this is a newb perspective, but this seemed like an H-Bomb tactic that nothing could really stop. Enemines can banish you, true - but it makes no difference because you're producing and attacking with undead in such huge numbers.

So, hi everyone. Hopefully I'll be around long enough to laugh at what a foolish newb tactic this was.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Yeah, LA ermor is pretty rigged in SP. the computer can't handle them. in MP its a little different although its still pretty ridiculos

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

You really have to keep in mind that this game is all about MP... i wish so bad that the ai in SP was better :(

but hey MP is absolutely awesome

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

nations aren't balanced, even though this is an MP focused game. LA Ermor is often banned from MP games, so is LA Ryley and sometimes EA Hinnom. Other superpowers are Mictlan all ages, Sauromatia, Ashdod and Gath, and some iterations of Vanheim, Marignon, and Pythium.

Despite all that, for not making all nations carbon copies, balance is pretty good. Aside from those named above, and with some weak-considered-nation exceptions, most nations are relatively well matched.

For SP, once you've learned a few tips and tricks and how to use magic, you can mop up any number of opponents with even the weakest nations on even 'impossible' setting. The AI is just really terrible.

Don't bother with playing SP to 'learn the basics' because you really won't learn anything useful. Jump into MP and watch see how other players put stuff to use and learn from that; its the only way. The only reason to do SP is to test initial expansion strategies.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

I personally think you can learn a lot from SP games, but only if you are disciplined with your approach to them. I actually played SP games for 18 months before jumping into MP games (for various reasons), but after the first few SP games, I stopped trying to win directly against the AI, since that was just too easy, and made each game about challenging myself, and learning more about the vast array of spells and mechanics in the game.

One idea I came up with was for each new game I played, I'd pick some of the spells that I currently didn't know the effects of, and then would force myself (script wise) to cast them in every battle. If I couldn't cast them in a particular battle, I wouldn't allow myself to fight. Sounds odd, but I found it a great way to force yourself to learn about every spell in the game.

Another idea was to ban myself from recruiting any troops at all (especially tough as MA Ulm!). As that forces you to learn how to build thugs, highlights just how long high prot/def guys can hold the line, and teaches you that a handful of mages can take down entire armies with the right spell combos.

So there is a wealth of game experience to learn from SP games if you approach them correctly, and not just the basics. I know I was very competitive in my MP games right from the off as a result of the SP games I played (with only one of those games being a newbie game).

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

I don't think LA Ermor is considered overpowered at all anymore (in MP, that is). They are sometimes banned just because they can be a bit aggravating, not least because even if you do win you just get a barren wasteland.

By opinion of them in MP is that they are exceptionally attention-drawing (you can't ignore legions of undead on your doorstep, whose very dominion is annihilating your population), but not very likely to win.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Corrected. :D

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Yeah, I think you're right there Gregstrom.

To the original poster: yep, undoubtedly they are powerful in Single Player, since the AI can't work out the counters. They can be good fun as an AI opponent, since it gives a very Defeat-The-Dark-Lord feel to a game. You could play as one of the human nations (e.g. T'ien Ch'i) 1 vs 1 against Ermor and have quite a dramatic game I reckon.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

LA ermor has already been greatly nerfed. Once its population are not dying so quickly. Same with LA Rly.

After a couple of MP, I learned the balance of Dominions is more dynamic
rather than statistic: as you grow stong, you will face stronger resistance from the alliance of other players.
Yes some nations will be doomed in a fair 1v1. But in actual games the powerhouses are often wiped out instead just because they are more feared. And many experienced players prefer picking up underdogs just because thats fun.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Thanks all. I'm getting the idea that skilled players know how to put together SC's and thugs that are powerful enough to make the waves of undead less of an issue. That must be what I need to work on.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Loads of priests as well. Churn them out. Also although I've not used them, I think giving Herald Lances to commanders and setting them on "Cast spells" can be useful.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Yeah herald lances and flambeaus wreck ermor.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

The AI opponents have several weaknesses... one of them is not being able to handle a death scale or an enemy nation which uses a death scale such as ERMOR.
Another major weakness of the vast majority of AI opponents is that they are not able to expand into the water provinces. Any map with water provinces offers the human opponents an advantage over the vast majority of AI opponents... so it's typically best to avoid maps with water unless you use the few nations which can enter the water.

Here are some other tips as well to continue keeping the game interesting:

If you're seeking stronger and healthier AI opponents for the entire game... I recommend using the map edit commands to provide all of them with at least 1 growth scale. The death scale will hurt AI opponents more than anything by mid and late game. While a human opponent can handle provinces with low/decreasing population the AI will wither and flop like a dying fish. Giving all AI opponents at least 1 growth makes a huge difference and more fun challenge.

I also recommend not playing any maps with water UNLESS using only the AI nations which have the skill to enter water provinces such as EA Argatha; LA Atlantis; etc., . The vast majority of AI opponents have ZERO skill for attacking water provinces which provides a massive advantage for the human player. Once a human player controls a handful of water provinces the vast majority of land AI opponents cannot attack them.


Now if you're seeking a strong knock you off your seat challenge then do the following using map edit commands:

1) Using start location command in the map file setup yourself on the far left middle or far right middle of a land only map.

2) Using start location command in the map file setup EA Niefielheim on the opposite side of the map from where you are starting.

3) Using the scale commands provide EA Niefielheim with +3 Growth; +3 Order; +3 Luck; +1 Productivity. The +1 productivity will help Niefielheim from buying a massive amount of weak independents... not much, but it helps.

4) Using #knownfeature provide the starting location of EA Niefielheim with the magic site called Library. This will allow the AI opponent to research at a more competitive level.


Then play your SP game and watch the graphs as a powerful AI opponent grows in the distance.

Now it's possible you're a veteran SP player and even using the above 4 commands still don't provide the challenge you seek... thus add the following:

5) Using the poptype command add the command into the map file only for the first 50 provinces which surround the capital of EA Niefielheim. This allows more of his troops to be specific from his nation and less stupid weak AI independents.

6) Using the commander command provide EA Niefielheim with 5 or more SuperCombatants... which includes the equipped gear. This will increase its rate of expansion and allow for some interesting late game battles.

7) Using the knownfeature command provide the capital with an additional magic site which may include discounted casting and/or a higher gem income.

8) Using the god command provide EA Niefielheim with a double; triple or quadrapule blessing. Also equip the god with good and/or unique items. I'd recommend using a size_3 or size_4 god for AI opponents which helps keep them from sending their pretender into the arena death match.

9) Provide EA Niefielheim with an extra province or two or three somewhere on the map which has a castle; temple and lab. Add moderate to high level immobile spellcasters which greatly increase its defense. If desired add a few magic sites as well.

10) Using the Allies command provide the a few allies between some AI opponents. I wouldn't recommend having them all as allies unless you've setup a map where you're in the middle.


Using all the directions listed can provide even the most veteran player with a challenge.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

New players tend to miss that the game is not balanced one-on-one but more rock-paper-scissors. Often Ermor is pointed out as being unbalanced. Which it is if put up against someone like Ulm (heavy armor). Then later they figure out that Ulm is unbalanced when put up against Marignon (heavy in priests). While Marignon is unbalanced when put up against Ermor (lots of undead).

As long as there is someone that is setup to handle someone else, the game is balanced. (kudos to the devs for choosing one of the most difficult balancing acts to do)

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

NTJedi: Not to hijack this thread too far, but I'm curious as to why you picked Neifelheim? I don't think I've ever really noticed how well the AI does with it, but it seems to have all the traits I'd associated with a nation the AI couldn't handle well.

Strong SCs. Strong sacred troops with no H3s. Blood. Generally lousy non-capital troops. Mages are expensive and not particularly good for artillery.
I'd expect the AI to do its best with strong regular troops and good general battle mages. Since it doesn't seem to consider the bless when buying troops, it'll never have a lot of sacreds and if it does it often won't bother to bless them. It won't build SCs and has trouble using them even if you build them in.
But good solid groundpounders and cavalry, along with fireball or bladewind type of casters. That's what it can handle.

Not that most of your suggestions aren't good. They'd certainly make any AI nation tougher, I'm just wondering why you chose one that doesn't play more to the AI's strengths. Or at least what I see as its strengths.

I'd also suggest using one of the Better Independents mods, instead of mucking with dozens of provinces by hand.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

jeff please check your forum pm messages...

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Marignon is certainly not afraid of Ulmish armor. Heck, even if they _did_ mass priests against Ulm (which would be silly), smiting is a fine counter to armor.

Dominions balance seems to have little to do with rock-paper-scissors; I'd describe it as something more like scattershot. Enough options, and on the whole some will end up being counters to others. Which as I see it is one of game's real strengths, organic as opposed to artificial balance allows you to truly feel you are creating innovative tactics.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

yeah. rock-paper-scissors is the approach to balance taken in the gaming industry most often -- just about every RTS and class-based MP (world of warcraft, team fortress 2, etc). The exception being Guildwars (and of course dominions), which also takes the scattershot approach and then ex posto facto balances (also like dominions).

and yes, IMHO scattershot is by far the best method. it is certainly given over to deeper, more creative gameplay. GW players often refer to themselves as doing "research" as they experiment with builds. just as with most dom nations, the 'classes' have very loose defining features and are mainly just the base skillsets from which players build classes. With team play there's a whole other dimension since member units can be designed to fit tightly within the team, and the 'build' goes beyond each individual character and becomes the team; such that when players say 'build' they may refer to a character or an entire team.

dominions is my fave strategy, and Guildwars is my fave MMORGP (and I ONLY do the MP). sigh... to bad I sold my account during the period of time in which I had a non-intel based computer.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

@thejeff

I found Niefelheim one of the strongest AI players when I started the game.
A giant troop (30 gold) can kill 3 human troops (10 gold) without getting killed. And that's all it's facing from other AIs/noob players.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Whether or not an AI does well requires many tests. Things such as map size, era, various random settings, AI level, etc can all affect the results of a nation from one game to the next. So peoples impressions tend to vary depending on their favorite game settings.

In particular, whether the AI takes the stance of defense, standard, or offense. With Niefelheim it might be particularly important. I think that Nief is better at a defensive stance than an offensive one.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

I've setup and played many games against AI opponents with and without humans, but Niefielheim is the most scary AI Opponent for late game. Here's the reasons:

1) It's commanders and mages are stronger and larger than the average nation because they're giants, thus ritual spells from humans such as seeking arrow, fires from afar, murdering winter, flames from the sky, and even wrath of god will primarily leave only afflictions on commanders/mages/units where most other nations will have its units/mages/commanders killed. Even mind hunt will be less likely used because the nation has astral mages.

2) Niefielheim uses blood and eventually learns claws of kokytos... matching the Jotun Skratti unit. Niefielheim uses this spell and will cast it during battle to remove a humans SuperCombatant(SC)!! It's happened during my games thus causing me to keep my SCs off the front line.

3) The majority of Niefielheim commanders/mages are useful for the AI opponent... it's also more likely to have priest commanders marching with it's armies based on the ratio of commanders/mages available and thus more likely to bless its sacred units.

4) The Niefielheim capital by default has only one magic site which allows the human map maker to provide 3 other magic sites using map edit commands. Many other nations would require modding of the actual nation to allow 3 extra magic sites.

5) The Niefielheim capital has admin_30 and defense of 750... which means breaking inside will be more difficult than most nations. The admin_30 helps with gold income.

6) Because it has blood mages which arrive with 2 or 3 blood it will be casting ritual spells such as rain of toads, bind frost fiend, spine devil, blood rite and even others as time passes and it empowers its mages to higher levels.

7) It's wide range of magic paths allow it a better chance of finding magic sites for provinces it owns... thus a faster growing gem income.

8) Now this last one is where it really shines: Niefielheim has a wide range of magic paths where it's mages can start at level_3 thus once it's completed most of the research you'll see it casting battlefield buffing spells such as: Anti_Magic, Mass Protection, Mass Regeneration, Rush of Strength, and more.

Also other deadly battlefield spells such as charm, wither bones, disentegrate, horror mark, both curse spells, blood vengeance, life for a life, curse of the desert, etc.,

One minor note: Niefielheim did summon some bog beasts which hurt some of its armies... some may want to change or remove the bog beast spell.
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I speak from experience on the Faerun map where my armies and SCs were marching and killing opponents easily than I ran into Niefielheim. The first blow was losing many of my SC's to the claws of kokytos, second was knowing the vast majority of ranged ritual attacks would not kill their commanders, then the battlefield buffs was purely shocking. I eventually won... but Niefielheim definitely provided the greatest challenge compared to all other AI opponents during late game.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Admin 30 is actually worse than most nations. I'd hardly list it as a positive.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Interesting. I've probably never run into it late game in SP. That may explain the difference in our perception. On the other end of the map and with the boosts you've given it, it'll do well against other AIs, so it'll reach late game.

Actually, I usually get bored with micromanagement and lack of real opposition before getting into the endgame in SP.
My usual SP challenge involves small crowded maps, where you're forced into conflict early on when the "impossible" AI bonuses still matter and you don't have all the counters that come along later in the game. "Better Independents" helps a lot. Avoiding SC pretenders and uber-bless strategies adds to the challenge.

Re: Balance Issue? (From a total newb)
 

Yes for small crowded maps I would recommend Helheim or one of the other glamour nations for the greatest challenge. Using the #allies command also increases the challenge.