Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game (Finished)
 

I'm intending this to be an all mod nations game. However, if I can't get the minimum number of players with just mod nations I will allow people to choose vanilla nations. Vanilla nations will also be made available if we reach the goal of 8 mod nations, though vanilla nations will have to be chosen from the middle era. I would like to see all the warhammer nations represented and am willing to include mod nations from other eras as well. All the mods being used will be compiled together using llamabeast's mod-combining script and the resulting mod will be downloadable from this post sometime before the game begins. All mod nations will be considered, but if they are deemed to be excessively strong by me/the other players they will either be disallowed or nerfed into a more reasonable status. For the purposes of this game all currently existing and playable ma mods on the llamaserver (skaven, ogres, tomb kings, arga dis) are considered balanced and I highly encourage players to take one of these nations up.

Settings:
Era - Middle
Mods - CBM 1.5, for nations see below
Players - 8+
Gems - 50
HoF - 15 (warhammer in particular is all about the heroes)
Score Graphs on
Hosting interval will start at 24 hours and will stay that way until the majority of voting players wishes that to be extended or it becomes necessary to grant a particular player or more regular extensions to get their turn in, at which point it will switch over to 48 hours.. Hosting will stay at 48 hours until, again, the majority of voting players wish to increase the timer or players are consistently having issues getting their turns in on time. Extensions will be granted liberally, so if you know that you might have difficulty getting your turn in, ask ahead of time. I cannot guarantee an extension asked for only a few hours prior to hosting.

All other settings default unless a majority of voting players wishes otherwise. If you do not vote, your voice does not count. Map to be determined by a majority vote, though I personally would prefer a no independents map. I would be interested in adding Burnsaber's CPCS mod as well, but I am pretty sure that will be more or less impossible.

Game is to start hopefully sometime after sombre makes a couple small corrections to the latest iteration of the lizardmen mod and the next iteration of ogres, but if we have a full game and that looks to be taking too long we will start earlier.

Players:
1. rdonj - Itza
2. Lavaere - Skaven (purged by lizards)
3. Trumanator- Nehekhara
4. Ferrosol - Alugra (taken over by burnsaber)
5. Executor - Stygia (taken over by Septimius Severus)
6. Alpine Joe - Arga Dis
7. statttis - Ogre Kingdoms (slain by stygia)
8. The Vanishag - Alchera
9. Valerius - Haida Gwaii
10. viccio - Tharoon (slain by stygia)

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I'll join as Nehekara. What magic sites/research will we be using?

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Default, but as I said if a majority of voting players wishes otherwise I am willing to change the settings. Although actually personally I would prefer slightly higher gem settings than default for ma, so I will change the op to reflect that.

I would also like to add that this game is open to players of all skill levels. I myself am intermediate at best. So if you'd like to play a mod nation in an mp game, go ahead and join :) There are not many opportunities to do so, though admittedly there are a few mod nation-accessible games going on at the moment.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I agree that adding more gems will make it more fun, especially since it will enable more usage of the national summons. I am also in favor of CPCS if we can wrangle it.

On a sidenote, there is a definite dearth of mod nations for MA on the llamaserver list, and the MA mod list on the forums is nearly a third Amos mods, which, while certainly entertaining, are generally considered fairly OP from what I've heard. Maybe we should look into allowing EA or LA nations?

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Lavaere finally gets to play Skaven.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I already said that's fine :D Since I plan on combining the mods with llama's mod-combining script anyway, changing eras for some of the mods is really not an issue.

With regards to amos' mods, there are at least a few of them that I don't feel are really overpowered. A number of them clearly are (like hellgate), but I am not going to dismiss all of them out of hand. If someone wants to play one of amos' mod nations and can convince me and/or enough other players that they're not overpowered, they are welcome to it.

:D Yeah. I knew he really wanted to so I made sure to ask him before starting the game. Of course, he gets them in another game as well (redwich) so before long he'll be all skavened out.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

if mod nations are allowed from other eras count me in as Alugra, Failing that I will take the Ogres but I would really prefer alugra.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Alugra is perfectly fine by me :)

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

This is too good to pass!
Is Stigia allowed?

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Not as familiar with stigia off-hand. I'll get back to you on that one.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

There are only 3 mid mod nation that interest me, Stigia, Seraphim and Commonwealth.
If they aren't allowed that I guess I won't be joining.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I'm not saying they won't be allowed. Commonwealth I don't think there'd be any problem giving you. Stigia I just don't remember, I'm about to take a quick look at them to jog my memory. Seraphim, well, that nation might be a bit much.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Well Nehekhara is taken, so I looked for other nations that seemed interesting, and yes Seraphim need some repair on mages, reduced magic paths, and a bit more expensive troops IMO.
Stigia is too overpowered, they have immortal sacreds and really overpowered summons, not to mention free spawn.
I probably wouldn't allow those two nations myself, so I'm good with Commonwealth if it's ok with everyone else, and given they only have water for magic paths it probably is.:)

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Well, personally I am not so sure about stygia. They do have immortal sacreds, that's true. So does nehekhara, albeit you have to summon them. Still I'm not sure that's a big problem. And the freespawn are particularly bad freespawn imo. They do have some pretty nasty summons. But with how high they are, I actually don't think there's a big problem with them. So as far as I'm concerned, you can play them. I don't think they're in the same league as, say, ashdod. As long as we avoid stupid overpowered, I'm fine with it (besides, my nation oozes priests. I'm not afraid :)).

With seraphim, I completely agree with you, they'd need some serious nerfing to be very fair. Some of those angels are just too much, what with three magic paths at level 4 and no handicaps.

And also, as I said you can play mod nations from any era. So don't feel constrained to just pick ma nations.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

yay a mod nation game. I'll grab Arga Dis.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Welcome aboard.

Also, it seems we're already up to 6 players. Two more and we're at the minimum.:) I would hardly mind more than that though.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

It's strange that this is the first game of this kind, well maybe the first since I joined the community, don't know.

Map will be determened by the number of players right? May I suggest a slight increase of provinces per player as to see most of the nations expand and grow a little before going into war. It should make things more interesting.

Also, if anyone objects to me having Stigia in this game I will change the nation.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Well, we did do warhammerama. Tomb kings, lizards, ogres and skaven. But so far as I know there was only one big, non-themed mod nations only game and that was well before my time as well. Mod nation games seem unfortunately rare around these parts.

Yeah, map will be determined by number of players. If we go with a no indies map, I would love to play on shahrivar. Just so long as arga dis doesn't end up on the top left of the map, heh. It has some preset magic sites and the 60% blood discount site is up there. It could be modded out though for this game. Shahrivar is 168 provinces, so anything less than 11 players and we'll see a bit more than 15 provinces per player. I'm open to other maps though.

I'm glad to see you being so flexible about stygia. Self policing is the way to go imo.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I like Shahriver too, it's a really beautiful map, my compliments to whoever created it. And it seems very strategically balanced to me.

Thanks, I realize that Stygia is far from helpless but I'm in this game for the fun. So I'm good with any nation that seems interesting to me and if folks have a problem with them it's no problem for me to change the nation.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Hmm, any more takers?

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I'll be the Ogre Kingdom

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Welcome aboard. I'm glad to see someone take the ogres, they should be a "fun" neighbor for some poor, unsuspecting soul :)

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

:vroom: Ooo! Ooo! Me too!

I really want to try out my mod nation, Alchera (Early Era, but that's an easy fix). Please take a look at it and let me know if there are any balance tweaks you think are necessary. The one I've been agonizing over from the beginning is the Dreamhunter: capital-only and expensive, but a powerful stealth leader, ok mage and (this is the biggie) assassin.

Feedback on the Alchera thread so far has leaned toward that unit being, if anything, underpowered, but...

(Note: this would make the 3rd game I'll be in simultaneously, but that's my self-imposed limit, so I don't think I'm overcomiting.)

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I would like to try Haida Gwaii.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I'm looking at alchera now. For some reason there seem to be recruitable bashanites? Also one of the commanders is messed up. This seems to be an error with the start site "Te Korekore". It points at unit numbers not used in the mod. I'll need you to fix that or for you to tell me what they're supposed to be if they're going to be in this game. I suspect dreamhunters are the missing commanders

I suspect summon yarama yha-who is too cheap, they're very good units for the price. You have Yowie listed twice... the first form turns into 2393, but there is no 2393. The second Yowie has the same id number (2390) as the first, so I'm not quite sure what would happen if they changed shape.

I have the feeling Compel Maero is just a tad abusive. Immortal chaff is not in and of itself unfair. Immortal chaff that costs basically nothing probably is. I think they're too massable too early.

Dream hunters aren't weak, but for 400 gold they aren't amazing either. I would leave them where they are for now and see how the game plays out.

I don't feel that alchera is overpowered overall though. I would probably nerf compel maero a bit, but aside from that I think they are reasonable. Go on ahead and play them.

Will take a look at haida gwaii next.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I'm going to go ahead and okay Haida Gwaii as well, so valerius you're in.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Yikes, I just took a look at Itza. They're insane. I'm almost afraid to look at Stygia since Executor was concerned they might be overpowered for this game.

Any chance of giving Haida Gwaii a boost so they can compete? :)

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Itza is probably the strongest overall nation currently in this game. Perhaps this is poor form on my part :P I wouldn't say they're quite insane though. I don't think they're quite as good as the top tier vanilla nations like la ermor/ashdod/mictlan. They have significant issues to overcome, such as preposterously expensive forts and cap only mages :P I do think having their sacreds recruit everywhere is probably a bit too good. If the other players deem it necessary I am willing to limit them to cap only for this game.

I'm less inclined to boost haida gwaii. You've got plenty to work with :)

Also I note that we've reached the minimum number of players. I will continue accepting sign ups for say a few more days and then I'll put the mod together. I'll give another day or two after that for people to play around with the nations and see if any bugs pop up. Then we can start.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Yeah, I don't think Lizardmen are too OP, they're a bit hard work on account of expensive forts and mages. However, I would agree with limiting the temple guard to be capital only.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Nah, you're the game organizer. You should be able to choose the nation you want to play.

Hmm, well most nations have cap only mages - just not ones as good as Itza. And the recruit anywhere Fifth Generation Slann aren't that shabby. But I don't think you should change them for the game. Anyway, I took a look at Stygia and they'll probably give you a run for your money. Units with a defense of 34+? They laugh at clumsy glamour nations with their defenses in the 20s. :). Weapons with soul slay and banish to inferno? :confused:

Off to convince Foodstamp to change the Haida Gwaii mod before this game begins. ;)

Sounds good.

BTW, I took a look at Shahrivar and it's beautiful. Definitely would be a nice map to use.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I think the thing that throws me off is the troop lineup: a good recuitable anywhere sacred, a size 6 trampler, several units with magic weapons/attacks (that's a big one), a variety of special purpose units. As far as the mages, the slann are excellent but it's also that they have access to every path but death. I think you can get around the fact that things are expensive if you take decent scales (which shouldn't be a problem even with, say, an E9 bless).

But it all depends on the competition. Against vanilla MA I think they're OP; against Stygia, no.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Itza is indeed very good, but keep in mind that the trampler is 300 gp, the sacreds are going to be cap only in this version, and that their non cap mainline mage is 650 gp, with the cap only one being 850! I do worry though for Haida Gwai and maybe Arga and Alugra. I have no idea about Alchera.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

My point wasn't that the 4th generation slann were cap only, but that they were expensive... at 850 gold as trumanator pointed out :). That's as expensive as some forts, and you need to recruit a certain number of them just to get paths you need for forging, not to mention rituals. The slann are very poor ritual casters, while being great battle mages. The only way to really break into ritual casting is with the summonable 3rd generation slann, who are pretty expensive at 50 pearls a pop and conjuration 7.

Well, the only two units stygia has that get that soulslay attack are a mage and a hero. The mage is hardly terrifying with its 9 hp and dreadful combat stats. The hero, well, he's a bit meaner. What has 34+ defense? I looked through the .dm file and saw nothing with stats so high. Anyway, my personal feeling is that stygia is kind of ermor lite early in the game, eventually getting some nasty unique summons that heavily entice other players to cast Well of Misery so they can't have it ;) And trust me, there are plenty of death nations in this game who have good reason to pursue that well. We'll have to see how the game plays out, but I think there will be plenty of work ahead for stygia if he wants to win this game. Same with me :)

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Haida Gwaii has spammable thunder strikers, alugra has ubiquitous thugs. Arga has great non-sacred infantry and recruitable SCs, as well as decent forging paths and blood magic. Alchera is probably on the weaker side of nations playing in this game, but ethereal sacreds are nothing to sneeze at. Well, for anyone other than myself... :P

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Ok, I see my mistake. I was looking at the (EA?) version of Stygia from here. Now I found the MA version.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Sombre is quite careful with balance. I honestly think Itza is not crazy. The sheer expense of producing the Slann makes it hard to produce them in any numbers, and having done so they're surprisingly un-useful. Very hard to boost you see (no slots), so they're terrible ritual casters. In battle they're okay but you'll never has very many, so frankly I would generally be more scared of say Marignon's fire mages. Also if you want a second or third fort to churn out skink priests (which you do) they cost a whopping 2300 gold before you can make the priests, and take 6 turns to put up.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

!

Alugra, my precious baby, is in! Oh, the happy day! (The nation was somewhat designed with MP in mind, so I'm glad it's in)

Just wanted to tell everyone that the Alugra nation mod makes some global changes*. They're not that crucial and Rdonj can remove them if he so wishes.

* Alugra adds a new (very weak) forgeable fire magic item: Hellfire Bracers. It also boosts the "Brigand Lair" common blood site and changes the names of some astral were for thematic reasons.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I'm not worried about the changes alugra makes. Thanks for pointing that out though, I'd forgotten about those.

I don't suppose you'd like to take a crack at the game, burnsaber? You do seem a bit busy with other games though.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

The same invitation is extended to llama of course, but I have the feeling if you're popping in that many times without signing up, you're not gonna :P

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Thanks for the invitation, but I'll have to decline. Althought I'm absolutely tempted to play Ulm Reborn, I have a bit too much on my plate right now.

But I'll keep very close eye to this thread. You know, just for the far-out chance that someone mentions something about Alugra.

Oh, you'll probably have to off the CPCS dream. No way you are going to get them to fit with so many national spells. Unless you are willing to override 78 vanilla national spells. Also remember that the llama's mod combiner script doesn't take into account magic site recruitables, so you'll have to set capital only troops (and the Alugran change to Bringand Lair) by hand.

Also if you hit the spell limit, you can overwrite vanilla national spells to get more spell slots, but llamaserver had some problem with that, if I recall the Unsanity-drama correctly.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

I'm very tempted to join actually, but had better not. In the next six weeks I have to hand in my thesis (Friday), start a job (my first non-summer job), move house (twice!), practice an improvised comedy show (almost every weekend) and take it up to the Edinburgh festival for a week-long run. Gosh! And this week, while I'm meant to be working like a maniac I keep on thinking about the game I'm playing (Crusaders) and looking at the forum, like a fool!

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Man, I really should fix that. I didn't realise it affected capital only troops, does it really? Next week!

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Thanks for the warning burnsaber. I can see a number of potential issues cropping up that I'll have to check. For example I'm pretty sure between all the mods I'm going to have to remove some of the nametype changes. I was pretty sure there would be pretty much no chance for CPCS, unfortunately, this is just about the worst game type format to fit it in. Maybe if I'm feeling really ambitious I'll look into it and see how impossible it would be.

Yeah, I figured both of you were too busy. But wow llama, that's quite a lot going on! Oh well, maybe next game.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Valerius, if you have a problem with Stygia I can change the nation, it's ok. I feel they are somehere in between MA and LA Ermor myself, with the limited magic paths and all the undead.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

No, I think MA Stygia is ok. A strong nation, but not like the version (LA) of Stygia I based my comments on - link here. That version ... well I think Foodstamp's comments in that thread sum it up well. :)

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Lol, I was just running a test game with CBM 1.5 and Tomb Kings on the NI version of Sharivar, and I just ran into a bunch of heavy cavs wielding Divine Flails. I'm sure you can imagine my surprise when my troops starting dieing madly to fiery explosions!:D

The more interesting part though is that this did NOT happen on the regular version of Sharivar...

Secondary note, the regular version also has an improbable prov connection between 31 and 4. I also though it funny that the province numbers start in the bottom right corner and go right to left bottom to top. :D


Yet another note, I think we should set starts, or at least make sure that everyone has a semi-equal one.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

:doh:This is what I get for not testing a new version before uploading it.

I went ahead and made some changes - only the last one is a "buff":

Regarding the Maeros: as they increase unrest in their province 1/turn (each) and aren't stealthy, so you can't use this against hostile provinces, I figured that was a major balance point - losing a lot in a single turn could cripple one's capital the next turn.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Compel Maero used to be 11+ ;) I take it that wasn't intended. I think they would be reasonably fair at 2-3 per cast. At 1 a cast... well, you could make a case for them, but they probably would not be worth the mage time.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Interesting game. I think you're going to be beset by random issues from having that many mods, but if you can cope with it and get started for good without too much drama and hassle then you'll do fine.

We have run a couple of all mod nation games before and the hassle of random problems caused them to kinda collapse.

Re: Tourmaline - Mod Nations Game
 

Yes, that's a rather ridiculous bug in the last version of Tomb Kings. What I don't understand is why no-one ever mentioned it before. I thought it must be some change that I only had on my system since no-one had mentioned it.

I'll make a fixed version shortly, tonight maybe.