EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

Was browsing through the strategy threads and found some info on Vanheim but nothing specific regarding proposed build orders in the first turns to get the machine going and/or medium/long term priorities etc. Have not used this nation at all so any advice on any of the below is appreciated:

1)Pretender build recommendations, bless vs rainbow.
2)Typical build order for the first 5 to 10 turns
3)Which sacred units/commanders are most effective?
4)What spells are research priority for Helheim? what to aim for in mid game.
5)What are the best thugging options? death? I ve read that in EA most nations have recruitable SC but Vanheim does not, how does Vanheim counter this?
6)Does it have any kind of end-game strategy?

Thanks,

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

I don't pretend to have any Vanheim expertise, but...

1. You have some good sacreds, so a bless is very viable. Water helps your high defence glamoured units nicely, and Astral can keep them viable later into the game as well.

2. Past turn 3 or so, demands on production may be a little unpredictable (things like agressive neighbours, for example). I don't know if there can be a typical build order over the first 10 turns. Maybe dwarves + sacreds with the occasional Van for blessing armies each time you're ready to send out a war party?

4. Thunder Strike.

5. Death is good for the Van (although rather limited except in the case of Helheim). Otherwise, Blood may be a good idea.

6. Err, win before the endgame? They're not a late game powerhouse. If you know you're not going to win any time soon, bootleg death for eventual Tarts and hunt extensively for Blood. You're pretty much stuck for Astral (barring indies/pretender paths).

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

I think he's asking about EA Van.

1. Your sacred Vanheres will rack up lots of fatigue when they berserk, and it's worse if they are quickened. I'd go for a rainbow bless that will be useful on the commanders too, like E4N4W4S4. You've got no Oracle to go for a W9S9 bless, and that bless works much better with mounted sacred troops anyway. S4E4 lets you make astral rings and golems. A sleeping god will give you decent enough scales, I prefer at least neutral production.

2. I'd go dwarves and huskarls for the first little while, and indy commanders to lead the huskarls. Past turn 2, grab a few serfs to place up front and catch arrows instead of having them hit your huskarls.

3. I'm not crazy about the Vanheres. They have no shield, and once they get hit they berserk and build up fatigue, and even if they don't get killed they rack up afflictions. Your commanders with A2 or A3 can self-bless and cast Mistform; the ones with E can also cast ironskin. They work well with a Vine Shield, another reason for N on a rainbow god. A frost brand is good too.

4. Thunder Strike is nice, but Alt-3 gives you Mistform, and you need Const-4 for gear for your sacred mounted commanders. On the other hand, Evo-4 also gives Blade Wind for your dwarfs. So, (Const-4,Alt-3) or (Evo-4,Conj-3). Conj-3 gives you Summon Earthpower for better Blade Winds. Const-4 also gives you Sanguine Rods. Once you've got both of those you can go Alt-4 for Destruction.

5. Your Vanjarls and Vanadrotts are perfectly good thugs.

6. You've got Fog Warriors and Army of Foo army buffs in the late game, plus Rain of Stones from your dwarfs. With an E4S4 god you can make anti-SC golems. Blood gives you nice summonables and a chance at unique SCs. You've got a shot at getting the Earth and Air elemental royalty.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

Don't neglect owl quills. You prolly won't have gems for Skulls.
Try to get W4E9N4 on the Master Druid to get the most out of your thugs. Bracers are very good cheap artifact for them.
Vanheres won't worth a bless for themselves. Were they not capital-only, it'd be another question.
Storm+storm power.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

On the other hand, you can choose to neglect Owl Quills. :) Maybe build just one right at the start of the game. A quill is just 3RP, and you get 3RP out of a tribal shaman for about 100 gold, or 4RP with magic scales. Air gems are better off saved for Mist, Arrow Fend, Trapeze, Air Elementals, Fog Warriors, etc IMO (and maybe the occasional strategic Seeking Arrow barrage).

You could use an A3W4E4S4N4 Great Enchantress in CBM with Order-3,Cold-1,Misf-1,Magic-1. Vanadrotts and Vanjarls have low base protection so you're not getting much benefit from an expensive E9 bless.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

Hmm, I don't know, I wouldn't keep on forging them, but if you forge 5 owl quills (15 gems) starting on turn 15 you will have about 480 rp more at turn 50 (you can recruit the shaman anyway). Nothing gamebreaking, but if the new spells let you save 15 gems...

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

Yeah, they're not a long term strategy, but if const is one of your early research goals anyway (to thug out your Drotts & Jarls), a few early on can give you a nice research boost.
And the critical uses for Air gems don't come along until you're a bit farther in research anyway.

Sure, Indy shamans can get you 3-4 rp for 100 gold each, +500 or 900 gold upfront and early on, you're more likely to be gold limited than gem limited.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

I think with magic-1 scales it's worth it for Van to build a Temple + Lab in a tribal province sometime around the end of first year, for the research benefits. You can fort it up later for 800 gold, and your PD is good enough to hold off barbarians. I'd build in a deer tribe province if possible, to try to get an AN mage for rainbow armor.

Quills are const-0 in CBM, so you usually don't need to research at all to build them in MP. I agree that you don't need the A gems until later, but when you do get there it's nice to have some saved up.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

I like P3D's build, though I'd probably change the W4 to S4. The E9 bless is a big help to Vanjarl thugs. The reinvigoration of 4 from E8 give them a net encumbrance of 0 and with easily forgable bracers of defense the protection bonus from E9 goes from 4 to 8 (in addition to the 2 from the bracers themselves). That makes a big difference when mistform is cast.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

If you're blessing, I'd go first for E/N. You need to reclaim fatigue urgently, and N gives mistformed Vanjarl/drott thugs a better chance. Note that Vjarls/drotts have 8 casting fatigue, so you have to be sparing with spell buffs, especially with no or low reinvigoration (although not so bad for Vanadrott as higher A magic makes it less severe). Personally I think a big bless is a suboptimal strategy for Vanheim in any era. I'd go with VFB's pretender or something pretty close.

Start by recruiting Dwarves - best start option in terms of effectiveness and research for the cost. Vanadrott need mid-level research to kick *** (again see VFB), are overkill for low-level spells, and empty your treasury of money which could be better spent on infrastructure and armies. Consequently, ignore hiring Van heroes for the first year or so, although if someone rushes you with a SC that isn't lightning immune, a couple of Vanjarls could make it pay.

Try to find cost-effective indy research mages quickly, build castles there. Use those subsidiary castles to recruit indy researchers, and Vanjarls for general purpose (research, thugging, leading stealthy armies etc.) In the capital, start building Vanadrotts when more money comes in, although don't ignore Dwarves, they're still important.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

A few things I found playing Vanheim in SP. (CBM 1.5) First, I'm a little leery of a full on double-bless, as their only sacreds are cap-only or commanders. Their commanders thug well, but don't SC well because of their low hp. To thug, mistform, air shield, and iron skin/invulnerability for the E Vandrotts go a long ways. Admittedly, their sacreds are really good, but I don't know that they're sufficiently better than hirdmen to justify the expense of a bless when there's so much other stuff you can get.

For instance: Blood on your pretender. It's awesome. You can't really go whole-hog on blood, as your cheapest blood hunters are 280g, but with some blood and earth, you can have your pretender forge a blood stone, blood thorn and blood vessel. That gets a B1 E1 Vandrott to forging blood stones. Now all your Dwarven Smiths can generate E gems for themselves, as well as always be E5 (1/4 E6) in combat. (E3, boots, stone) Those are ridiculous blade winds, or some magma spells for the F randoms. I'm also a fan of Soul Contracts, though they're expensive because your blood hunters are so costly.

Similarly, low-level F and D to forge a few flaming skulls. These open up some fire forging for the dwarven smiths, as well as augury. The F has synergies with the Blood for Soul Contracts.

Death is useful to provide hardy thugs and later, SCs, which Vanheim really lacks. Air is powerful combat magic, and useful for buffing, but Vanheim has no high-HP or high-prot commanders to buff. RoW/RoS on a lich with skull staff and skullface can get you Tarts.

Air on the Pretender doesn't seem that useful to me. A little if it's cheap, sure. For research. Maybe. Mostly, though, you'll have A4 without much trouble (1/4 Vandrotts), or you can RoW a Vandrott -> boosters -> more boosters. Staves of Storms are also excellent when backing up hirdmen, mounted hirdmen, and vanheres. Your battle casters can often throw up Aim (Dwarven Smiths have trouble, but you can keep your F & D ones for forging, E ones for buffing, A ones for evocs) which helps with the Storm accuracy penalty. It's not perfect, but arrows really hurt your troops, who have medium prot (low for their price) and arrows destroy glamour. Storm also enables summon stormpower, which gets Vanjarls Thunderstrike.

W on the pretender...meh. It's great with N to start a clam factory, but I'm not sold.

N on the pretender is like W. Useful, esp. at N2 to get thistle maces, but eh.

S I really like, though it's probably not essential, and has mediocre synergy. RoW/RoS are useful for diversifying, allowing indy mages to forge the appropriate boosters. You don't have any S support, though, so you'll mostly be relying on indys for S site searching, a bit of a losing proposition (I got lucky with crystal sorceresses in my last few games). Still, amulets of Luck are great to have access to. I just don't know if it's worth it.

Scales.

I like positive scales in general, particularly as you have so much demand for gold. Your commanders are pricey - you'll want as many dwarven smiths and vandrotts as possible, weighing in at 180 and 380 each. Your secondary forts will mostly be producing Vanjarls (I can't for the life of me figure out how to use Vanherses effectively. They don't have A2 for mistform, so are eh thugs) at 280 apiece. Hirdmen are 30g ea, so not super-cheap, and Vanherses are 50 ea. I say Order/Misfortune, 1 pt Magic (you need research), 3 Cold. I like growth, which helps with mild blood hunting, but death is an option for points as you don't have any old mages. Death/Misfortune can be rough, but eh. Not too bad. I like productivity, but it's not essential. Your infantry costs more gold than resources, so typically on a nation-wide basis gold will be the limiting factor. Productivity helps early on for getting started, and in allowing more Vanherses. Still, the Gold/Resources balance means you can afford a little sloth.

As a side-note, I like the Great Sage, because a key advantage of an awake pretender is researching evocation - your research is terrible otherwise, and the Great Sage has a nice research bonus. Paths aren't perfect (S isn't critical) but can be ok.

Research priorities are Evoc 4, Const 6 (lightless lanterns, blood forging, blood stones, eyes of aiming), Tham 2, Conj 3 (sites), then whatever. Ench 3 has Strength of Giants, 4 cloud trapeeze, 5 thunder ward, 6 arrow fend. Alt gets you mistform and later fog warriors, Conj gets you thugs/SCs.


Sample Non-Bless Build:

Great Sage, Dom 6
O3 C3 Mf2 M1
F1 E4 S1 D4 N2 B4

Gets you Soul Contracts, Blood boosters, Death access, F/E blood summons (most important are the uniques, if you can scrape together the slaves). Thistle maces for those common N1 indys. Blood stones to start the blood stone factory. Importantly, you have a 34 pt. researcher off the bat. Over the first year, that's 404 pts of research, meaning Lvl 2 in 4 schools you wouldn't have otherwise, or lvl 4 in one school. I.e. your pretender gets you Thunderstrike by the end of year one.


Blesses:

If you're going for a bless, you're limited to your cap-only Vanherses and your commanders. Vanherses are tricky because they have such high encumbrance. 6 enc and berserking means 8 fatigue every combat round. They've got slightly above average def and prot, and 2 high damage attacks (Str 13, dmg 6 and 7 on weapons). Fire/Earth could be rather effective, imo. It's not a traditiona F/W or F/S, but Earth 9 gets you 4 reinvig, dropping Vanherses down to a reasonable 4 enc/rd after berserk. Higher prot synergizes with berserk. Fire is obvious on a 2 attack unit.

If you could pull off a N minor bless, too, that would be awesome, as a little regen would help with the berserking. Not crucial, though. Blood...eh. Good synergy with national magic, but higher attack & flaming weapons is better than higher strength & suicide bombs. I think a minor blood vs. minor fire is comparable, though, with the national magic advantage tipping scales to blood.

W bless is certainly powerful, but it whole-heartedly embraces the glass cannon nature of vanherses. They'll pick up 22 enc over 2 combat rounds (3 full attacks, 2 rounds of berserk), so will fall unconscious after 5 rounds and get critted and chewed up. I think it's too risky with their high enc, but they do a whole lot of damage, and glamour will stop the first hit.

S bless I'm torn about. MR is useful, and if twist fate stacks with glamour, would make them much more survivable. However, it decreases the berserk advantage, and I think E is better. 4 prot vs twist fate on a berserking unit... And I prefer reinvig to MR.

A bless is normally completely useless. Air shield? Lightning resist? Pssh! However, I think Vanheim is one of the few nations that can put it to good use. Vanherses are very vulnerable to arrows, as it pierces their glamour. Also, they're size 2 with medium hit points and only 12 prot. So Air Shield can be handy vs an obvious counter. Lightning resist also lets you spam thunderstrike without worrying about your main-line troops. It's not really useful early on, but once you get Evo 4, it can be ok. It's also cheaper than most other dual-blesses when combined with fire, because the phoenix has both. And how many times do you get to use the phoenix? It also lets you use wrathful skies with much more impunity. Staff of Storms + Bag of Winds on a Vandrott = Summon Storm Power, Wrathful skies. Great addition to a shock-resistant army.

Bless Builds:

Imp. Cyclops, Dom 8
O3 S2 C3 D1 Mf2 Dr2
F9 E9

Imp. Titan, Dom 8
O3 S2 C3 D1 Mf2 Dr2
F9 A3 E9
(You can't eke out Dom 9 by slashing the A3, sadly)

Imp. Phoenix, Dom 10
O3 S2 C3 D1 Mf2 Dr2
F9 A9
(Could swap some Dom for scales)

Imp. Asynja, Dom 9
O3 C3 D1 Mf2 Dr2
F9 A9
(2 better scales, 1 worse dom than the phoenix)


Overall, of the dual-bless builds I prefer the F/E cyclops or titan (cyclops has more prot, but Titan has air magic, for Staff of Elemantal Mastery and buffs). The F/A builds are strong, esp. with the Asynja having less awful scales. F/E also helps your commanders spam thunderstrike, giving them a little reinvig.

A single bless would be much more affordable. I'd probably go with a F bless, possibly an E bless.

Imp. Cyclops, Dom 10
O3, P1, C3, G1, Mf2, M1
E9
(P, G, M are swappable. Or you could go O3, C3, M1 to avoid any misfortune.)

Imp. Cyclops, Dom 8
E9
O3, C3, G3, Mf2, M3
(M3 gives you a huge research boost, though M1 and P or neutral luck would also work. Possibly C1 instead of 3, but...that seems meh. Dom 9 would be nicer for awe, but it leaves 30 pts spare)

Dorm. Cyclops, Dom 9
E9
O3, C3, G1, Mf2, M1
(Dormant gets an SC up much faster, and you still have awe/fear)

Imp. Phoenix, Dom 9
F9 A3
O3, C3, G2, Mf2, M1

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

Vanherse have one huge advantage over Vanjarls: the price.

Ultimately, you need money for a lot of things, and buying 280gp Vanjarls instead of 160gp Vanherse will severely damage your ability to afford those things. Particularly, you've got good stealthy troops - they really should be moved around with a good stealthy commander. One of the most dispiriting things for an opponent facing EA Vanheim is having no idea where many of their armies might be.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

Agree with previous statements. EA Vans need good scales and good research. The latter can be provided by Magic scale, Dwarves and Quills (plus probably Skulls and/or Lightless Lanterns in mid-game). Huge Bless isn't necessary nor desirable. However, several light blesses are quite useful, especially Earth. Bloodstones allow them to become a major Earth power, so are to be made in numbers (I once even empowered dwarves specifically for this - playing Helheim!).
Another thing useful to look at are Baalz guides for Eriu/Tir and Helheim (you may note that even though Helkarls are better troops than Vanheres, he doesn't think they justify a Bless tailored for them). These nations have many similar elements. The difference of EA Vans lies in lack of sacred cavalry - which can turn into a point sink and presence of strong Earth mages - which allow research, early Hammers and midgame battlefield magic.
As for lategame... I don't see many good options here - just Blood and Death in a usual way. If you lack into a lot of Nature gems, you can also GoR some Siege Golems/Iron Dragons. Also, you may be able to reach Conjuration 8 in time to secure Air Queens. I am not good in lategame, though - so it's possible there are other possibilities.
Wait - one thing I forgot about (it's untested, though) - Vanyarls can form a Sabbath which allows for some interesting possibilities. As Masters you can use either Vanadrotts, or Spectres with Astral. Note that all Sabbath members are both good thugs in and of themselves and stealthy, so they could be used for raiding, then combine to attack strong enemy forces, then sneak out and start raiding again. Note that outside of CBM they'd need some blood slaves to cast Sabbath, but in CBM this won't be necessary.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

Even in CBM sabbath slave has quite a fatigue cost, which can be problematic if you're a B1 caster.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

Certainly, but there are 2 cures for this: 1. Earth bless with 1 master casting Bless on himself granting reinvigoration to all slaves (and we can also add Vanadrott or Earth-possessing Spectre with Summon Earth Power); 2. There is a Blood spell curing caster of all fatigue - 1 master can just cast it each round. I see more problem in sneaking necessary numbers of bloodslaves into needed location in time... Still, theoretically, Spectre in Winged boots can both appear soon enough and won't spend slaves even if he will fight before all this will be in place. Of course, this idea is still untested, but I think it can be made to work.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

EA Vanheim is a pretty reasonable candidate for a reverse communion. Sabbath Slave has a high fatigue cost, but if you script in a reinvigorate on the master they should do alright. If your pretender has E/S, you can throw a master matrix on a dwarf for the E buffs, too.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

(snipped)


No, you can't do this with Bless, only spells cast by the master which target the caster directly (AoE = Caster) are passed on to the communion slaves. Of course, there's nothing stopping you from having someone else bless the slaves.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

Agreed: it's a better way to turn your Vanjarls into thunderstrike spammers than summon storm power. With just 4 they'll be casting it cheaper than with summon storm power and the master can remove fatigue as well. It's also good if for some reason you don't want a storm to get higher A, which is reasonable. Some Vanadrott have an E random, don't they? If so, probably don't need a matrix on a dwarf.

Conventional sabbaths are a little limited - Vanadrott can get A,E,D,B; but Vanheim can already achieve any BF Air or Earth spells without, which means just Blood & Death.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

I usually find Storm advantageous to Vanheim, though having storm power and a sabbath would further cut down the fatigue costs of the air spells. Does storm affect ranged spell precision, or just missile weapons? If it does, then I can see how that would be a problem. Otherwise, it mostly keeps fire off your glamoured troops.

If you've got a supporting contingent of devils from soul contracts, on the other hand, I can see how that would be a problem.

Re: EA Vanheim build order and long term strat
 

Storm would normally be advantageous, but in some circumstances the player might prefer to make use of missile weapons or battlefield flight. Even if storm affects precision, Van have high precision and can cast aim or wind guide, so that shouldn't be a big problem.