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Ok, I decided to do this.
I'm really going to try bring the Bretonnian laser-focus on feodalism in the spotlight here. The noble commanders autosummon units (domsummon for 'religious' types), which represent them mustering the peasants from their lands to fight for the cause of the awakening. Most units will be plain recruits however. Several commanders will also summon a "honor guard" of additional troops at the start of combat, to encourage their use in combat. Brettonia is all about the knights, virtually everything else is just filling. To avoid the "MA Man late-game" pitfall, they will also have powerful magic, but it is mainly consentrated in the kick-*** capital only Damsels. Castles will be cheap, temples too, but laboratories very expensive (Bretons are very superstitious people). Here is my current troop line-up, feel free to point out possible flaws and make suggestions: Recruitable Units: Men-at-Arms: Come with either leather or chainmail and equipped with either halberd or shield & spear. They are cheap, but lack morale & skill (since they are levied). They also form the core of PD Peasant Bowmen: Archers with poor morale. Also in PD Pilgrims: Chaff infatry with poor equipment, but better morale. Also use Sticks and Stones. Yeomen: "Elite" peasantry. Have higher morale than their peasant brethen. Also come as mounted variety. Knight Errant: Cheapest Knights. Great morale, but lack the elite stats of the more experienced knights. Come also as footed variety. Knights of the Realm: Stats slightly better than MA Man Knights. Come also as footed variety. You will get these at PD 20+. Pegasus Knights: Knights of the Realm, who fly. The Pegasii will fight on if the knight falls until the end of combat. Capital Only. Grail Knights: Sacred, Capital only, expensive, kick a*s like it's going out of style. Commanders: Scout: Yeoman scout. Nothing to see here folks. Courtier: A bretonnian noble who doesn't have the stomach for fighting. A "ambassador" style spy. Brettonian Lord: Basic commander. Autosummons men-at-arms. Can summon (with a command) Yeomen. Honor Guard of footed knight Errants. PD commander. Brettonian Marquis (a'k'a noble who is charge of defense in a border province): Knightly commander. Thuggable. autosummons men-at-arms & domsummons Knight Errants. Can command-summon Shephards. Honor Guard of Mounted Knight Errants. PD commander at 20+. Brettonian Duke: Sacred Grail Knight commander. Very bad-*** stats. Always blessed in combat (onebattlespell "blessing"). Come pre-equipped with magical gear. Autosummon Knights of the Realm and command-summon Grail Knight. Honor Guard of mounted Knights of the Realm. Bretonnian Hero: A Pegasus mounted Knight Commander. These nobles devote their attention to slaying monsters and acting chivalric instead of managing their land. They lack the summons of the other noble commanders, but have very good stats, are sacred and possess weapons of thug-destruction. ("Lance of a Hero" that deals 3x damage to larger foes, and a magic regular weapon.) Grail Maiden: "Lowly" Grail damsel. These are not part of the orginal warhammer Brettonian army, but the nation needs a "research" mage. W1A1N1H2 With 100% A/W/N/E/S pick. Honor Guard of footed knight errant Grail Damsel: Capital only. As Expensive as they can get. W2A2N2H3 with 200% A/W/N/E/S picks. Honor Guard of a single Grail Knight. Summons: Questing Knights: These are not a part of the normal troop line-up (they're questing for the Grail, so they're kinda busy to be enlisted regularry). But Grail Maidens/Damsels can summon them to fight for the holy cause of brettonnia. They come as commanders and domsummon Battle Pilgrims (a'k'a religiously minded peasants who follow and fight alongside the quester). There will also be a line of "Call of Virtue" type spells, which summon large numbers of knights to remote attack provinces. (the Damsel sends a magical vision to compel the knights) I'll also probably incorporate the Grail Virtues as a line of army buffs (castable by Damseƶs) which only affect sacred units. Summons for Unicorns/Hippogriffs & Pegasii are not out of the question either. Heroes: Louen Leoncouren, the King of Breton: Kicks *** and summons hordes of knights. Did I mention the Griffon? The Fay Enchantress: Grail Damsel on crack, obviosly. Probably something like W3A3N3S3H4 and riding a Unicorn. The Green Knight: Will be nearly unkillable thug. Immortal, ethereal, regenerating... "Merlin": Fleshing out the details at the moment.. Multihero: This will something from my imagination. I was thinking of a "beast-master", someone who handles the Pegasii, Hippogriffs & Griffons. Suggestions are highly welcome. Custom Pretenders: A pretender modeled after the Lady of the Lake. Human sized, ethereal and aweriffic expensive rainbow chassis. Summary: Strenghts: Free summon troops by noble commanders, skilled armomred knights accompanied by cheap peasant units make for a great troop line-up, recruitable thugs, cheap castles, good PD Weaknessess: Only research mage blows, expensive laboratories, main caster expensive and capital only |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
WOOHOO!!
I really have nothing to add at the moment... :D |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
It'll be interesting to see how this balances out. On the one hand, it can be very hard balancing so much freespawn, even if it does come with upkeep. On the other hand, having to give up magic for it is a tough choice. I'm very much looking forward to it though.
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
I'm not quite sure about the freespawn (I think it would be better if the troops were still at least mainly recruitables), but I'm very excited about this!
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Well to be blunt, the freespawn will be just 1 unit per month. Honor Guards will be between 1-5 units at most. To get something really noticeable you'll have to use the command spawning (a'k'a actually spend the month mustering your subjects). Besides, each regular commander you recruit makes you fall even more back in research, so the opportunity cost is really high.
The research gap is just so thematic handicap for the allways backwards Breton, but it poses it's own problems. Bretonnia is all about gragon-slaying knights and stuff, so I *really* need to encourage the use of knight commanders to get the theme of the nation trough and avoid armies commanded by 20 Damsels (Ugh...). |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
I like the mod idea.
I really can't comment from a Warhammer perspective, but from an Arthurian legend perspective, here are a couple of thoughts: (1) What about Merlin or his equivalent? :-) (2) What about a Questing Beast remote spell modelled after the Monster Boar one? (Cause unrest in enemy province until hunted down.) This may not be doable - I did a quick search in the forum and it seems that damage is not used as monster ID for this particular spell effect. But, it is an idea anyway.... From a vanilla Dom 3 perspective, there are Knights of the Chalice (and, indeed, The Chalice magic item) already, and it seems like the Grail thematically clashes somewhat. (I guess if you're looking for a pure Warhammer reconstruction, then these suggestions/concerns are probably irrelevant....) |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Oh, so the majority of troops would still be recruited as normal? Sounds great to me then. I thought you meant you could only get troops as freespawn, which I think would be kind of frustratingly inflexible.
I like the honour guard idea quite a bit by the way. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
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As to chalice knights vs grail knights, I don't think they necessarily conflict. Who's to say there can't be more than one order of knights seeking the holy grail? |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
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But, I don't want to make a big deal out of this. I think the mod idea is great and this is simply a minor detail. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
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And yeah, I'm not going to exact Warhammer duplicate (since vanilla warhemmer Bretonnia is a bit bland). Quote:
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I figured out a nice way to get all the vanilla spell slots I need to make custom #onebattlespells (I'll overwrite Bogarus nationals, since it's LA. If someone really, really badly wants both Bogarus and Bretonnia in some game, he can just rename the #selectspell commands) Quote:
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I'll probably explain the "sacredness" of grail thus: "The first king of Bretonnia was appointed by a ethereal Lady of the Lake, a being of mysterious origin. She gave the King a drink of gods from a golden cup, known as the Grail. By drinking from the cup, the King became the embodiement of nobility, gifted with divine wisdom and mandate to rule wisely over the people of Bretonnia. The Grail has appeared to many other Noble Knighta, but only after a long quest where they have proven their worth." But yeah, thanks for the feedback everyone. I'll probably show off the first picks by the end of the next week. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
I hope some of the knights (realm and grail particularly) are getting a special version of the dom3 lance which is a bit boosted (to represent lance formation from WHFB).
The magic on the damsel concerns me a little bit, but I guess the chances of getting a 4 aren't great, especially with it being a cap only. They're clealy superior to regular level 3-4 wizards with their special rules and being able to choose from 3 schools, but as mages they do just start at level 3, so they can't be too nuts. I appreciate they will be very expensive though, especially since they have H3. I think the #standard mod command is going to come up a lot for these guys too. Be sure to make the levy guys suitably awful in the morale department! Breton PD feels like it should be a lot stronger once 20+, almost immediately - they are pretty famous for defending the noble lands and forts really well, but letting the peasants suffer (since the whole 'duty to protect the weak' thing is largely suggested to be feudal justifying bull**** in WH). |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
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PD to 1 to 20 will just men-at-arms, peasant bowmen and the bretonnian lord and his honor guard of Knight Errants. At PD 20+ you'll start getting Knights of the Realm (both footed and mounted) and a Marquis with his honor guard. Moving from peasants straight to the Knight of the Realm is a bit of jump, but like you said, it's thematic. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Yay Breton, once it's complete it will be such a hard choice between Skaven and Bretonia for me.
A couple things, Merlin as a hero. Not so sure as I've always thought him more Empire then Bretonia. But then considering Arthurian styles he does fit. As for another summon. What about the idea to summon some Wood Elves. Since we have the Forest of Loren right there. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
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*a'k'a in ancient times, the wood elf quuen appeared before the first king of bretonnia and gave him a drink from the grail, starting the faith of the lady of the lake. Then the elves started kidnapping all breton children with magical abilites when they were just couple months old. the males are brainwashed to act as mindless slaves for the Wood Elves. The females are brainwashed too, but taught magic and sent on bretonnian courts to order the nobles and keep status quo (that's Grail Damsels for you). And why did the elves do a mindf*ck of this level? Apparently they just wanted a buffer of a friendly human nation at their border. So yeah, Lady of the Lake, the revered deity of hundreds of thousands, is just a hoax by the Wood Elves for political gain. But that's Warhammer for you. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
I've been working on the graphics and decided to show them out, so that you folks would have a general idea about how the units are going to look like.
http://xs541.xs.to/xs541/09293/bretonniapreview175.jpeg Drawing heraldy on those knights is a absolute blast, I must say. I'm really glad that I decided to take up this project. That bonus pic will eventually be a Grail Knight. Just decided to show out a work-in-progress to remind everyone about the magic of editing. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Bravo Burnsaber! The detail in them is great and your heraldry work is topnotch. Are you making your own heraldry based on medieval examples or using Warhammer source material for the heraldry colors and shapes? Just curious :D
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
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http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat1300218&pIndex=4&aId=210 0023&start=5 But I'm basically making the heraldy up as I go. I really can't do elaborate stuff due to constraints of pixel art, so sticking to some arbitary rules would just hinder my progress. I'm trying to give each progression of a knight (Errant -> Realm -> Questing -> Grail) a different color scheme and different heraldy thought. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Suggest as a small balancing tool
Have two of bretonia's multi heros be morgana le fay.. and whatever the pretenders name was. Morgana would have some use as a (blood magic?) caster, the pretender would merely be a thug. However, both would cause serious unrest (and bad events) in the province in which they were.... |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Envy envv envy.. sooo many talented people = )
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
All the sprites look really great, apart from the Damsel, whose face I just can't make out.
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
For some reason the maiden reminds me of the statue of liberty. Heh. I agree with llamabeast, the damsel's head isn't quite perfect. The crown of leaves or whatever on her head I think is the problem.
I really like how the knights came out. They look very, very good and the heraldry is a great touch. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
I really like the knights, nice work :).
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Yeah, I'll have to do some touchups on the Damsel.
But glad to hear that people like the Knights. And as this is breton, there will be more (7 to be exact). |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Ok, more pics.
In case you're wondering why I'm constantly posting these pics, my computers been acting wonky and I'm hosting these images as a backup. If my hard drive busts, I'll still have the pics in the embracing hands of the internet. http://xs541.xs.to/xs541/09295/bretonniapreview2378.png I touched up the Damsel & mounted KotR a bit. The Questing Knight probably need some work, but otherwise these are pretty finished. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Those are pretty sweet Burnsaber
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Very nice! :up::up:
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Hmmm... This might go well with my British Isles map...
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Very nice sprites burnsaber. The damsel is looking much better now. And I have to say, I really like the look of the questing knight even as it is. The pegasus knights might look a little better with slightly lighter-colored wings... it's a little hard to tell there's a man on top of it. I guess that's partly because the wings cover the plume on his helmet. Aside from that little quibble everything else is great, though perhaps the lines on the marquis' caparison are a bit wavy.
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Very nice!! Good work Burn.
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Ok, this is last one for a while. The only graphics lacking are the King & Green Knight, but I'm savouring those. (rdonj, I'm also going to touch up the Pegasus Knight eventually) You see, now I'm going to start writing the descriptions* and I'll work on the missing graphics if I ever need a break from the constant typing.
http://xs541.xs.to/xs541/09302/bretonniapreview2532.png I updated the Knight Errants & KotR's pics. Also some more touchups on the Damsel & Questing Knight. Since I'm now going to write the descriptions, I'd like to ask your opinion on something. I got this idea to write the nation into the Dominions3-verse, instead of just "making it appear" like Sombre did with his nations. I see special reason to go this route because I really can't the true warhammer explanation for the Lady and the origins of the Grail because we lack Wood Elf nation**. I won't go into detail here, but my storyline involves the fall of Maverni and the last of druids making a deal with a certain supernatural being to get their revenge on Ermor. *My method of mod-making 1) Do Graphics 2) Do Descriptions (I usually write them in word, to make use of the spellchecker) 3) The .dm file. ** Besides, IMHO, the warhammer explanation sorta sucks. I mean it's pretty dark and fitting for warhammer universe, but it dramatically undermines the whole nation. I mean, who'd think that guys that are being hoaxed on a epic level could be bad-***? |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
You're doing a fantastic job with the artwork, Burnsaber.
I do have a question about your Peasant Bowman: is he going to be a longbowman? From the graphic, he looks closer to a regular archer. Doesn't really matter to me either way, but given the era, a longbowman could be appropriate. The earliest mentions of Arthur seem to predate the regular military application of the longbow, but a significant amount of Arthurian legend was developed or compiled when it was in use. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
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Also, anyone have any opinions about the backround? Should I tie it to the dom3 universe, or figure out something else to explain the Damsels, Grail & Lady? |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Well, I have an opinion, but it's probably not worth much since I unfortunately know almost nothing about Warhammer. I would prefer to see the Dom 3 tie-in along the Maverni lines you suggested; it work well with what you had in mind for Merlin earlier in the thread.
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Dominions backgrounds are far more interesting in my opinion.
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Great that its a Warhammer nation, but make it more Dom3 background.
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
I know nothing about warhammer, but the theme of the sprites you have created so far beg to be integrated into dominions. Maybe a blend of Man and Marverni leaning more towards man but with it's own style as a more Arthurian nation.
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
I think you should stick with the Warhammer background personally, since it's a warhammer nation.
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
I wonder if there's any way to represent the fact that knights tend to have poor discipline. I think having some berserk(0) knights would make sense in the same way barbarian leaders have poor morale and berserk, knights have good morale but poor discipline, and berserk charges "for the honor" make sense (flavour-wise). This could help differentiate Knights Errant and Knights of the Realm stat-wise?
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Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
I think berserk in dom3 represents something very different from the impetuous nature of knights. I mean in dom3 a berserk unit is one that goes so absolutely crazy that nothing can rout it - it simply fights to the death with no fear or awe, disregarding defence and becoming harder to hurt (to an extent defined by the berserk stat).
The knights errant in warhammer, iirc, simply have to charge an enemy if they can - unless you have them somehow /start/ the battle berserk, then you can't represent this in dom3 anyway, other than with auto spawned battlefield summons of troops (which will just be on default orders). Errants already have interesting stats for knights, since their resource cost and prot is knight level, but their stats are basically just 10s. I think the best hope of having Breton armies act in a Breton way is simply to draw up a short set of rules for players who use them (which are obviously optional). Something like - 1. No Knights to be led by non noble commanders. 2. No Knights behind peasants in deployment. 3. Errants and Questing knights must always be set to attack large enemy monsters. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Yeah, I agree with Sombre about the berserk. It just won't work thematically & gameplay wise.
I'm also going to suggest some rules along the line Sombre listed in oder to play Bretonnia with the full thematic effect. I've also decided to go with the Dominonsy-backround, but worry not Sombre, I'm not really going to rub it in the player's face. I'll just slightly hint at the origins in a single hero and at the custom pretender description. I mean, I have to give some origin to them, just making them "mysterious" is just plain bad writing. Everything comes from somewhere. If we get a Wood Elf nation some day, I'll make a 100% faithful warhammer conversion, no matter how much I dislike the warhammer origin story. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Yeah the Warhammer origin story is pretty stupid in essence, but it's just an excuse for all the stuff the Breton's have built up themselves. I think Breton culture is all that's really needed, rather than an origin.
I mean there are plenty of dom3 nations that don't really seem to have any origin, just their own culture, religion etc |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
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1) Damsels: Bretonnia knights are so medieval that is doesn't just make sense for them to leave such important thing as magic to *gasp*.. women! Besides, according to lore, not even the King would disobey an "order" from Damsel, so they practically rule the nation. They are mysterious, nearly supernatural beings, not just some women trained in magic. Thus they need supernatural backround. 2) Grail: This just cannot be just a cultural thing. I mean drinking from the Grail turns into a superhuman with supernatural abilities. It's not just some upgrade by combat experience ("you've slain enough monsters questing knight, here is +1 to all stats, ta'daa! You're now a grail knight!"), it's a magical transformation. It has to have a source. |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Yes, but with dom3 nations you have similar things which are left pretty open - such as the God Mountain and spider transformations of Machaka, the demons in the heart of Marignon, the 'death' that is kept in the vaults of ermor, what exactly is behind the seal of Agartha etc
It might be enough to simply say that the damsels are beings heavily influenced by fay magic and that the fay have long had a hand in Bretonnia's destiny. Fay could be interpreted to be faeries, wood elves, Tuatha, dryads, lamias or who knows what else. I'm sure you'll come up with good stuff so I'm not worried or anything, I just don't think warhammer nations need much in the way of bending to fit in dom3, which has quite a vague and mysterious setting anyway (it has no map, for example, so warhammer countries can happily exist within dom3 and be referred to be a lone mod nation without being too jarring). |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Yeah, you have a point there. This is just one of my pet peeves. I just don't really like it when plot holes are just left there in order to be "mysterious". It's just one of the reasons why I tend to hit the maximum amount of characters in all of my descriptions, I just like to explain everything. I really dislike X-files and other similar series for this. "Apparently it wasn't the aliens.." or was it! dun-Dun-DUN!
But enough of that sideline. Like I said, I'm not really going to rub it in. I also see the increased ties to the Arturian legends as a bonus. It makes the nation a bit more alive and makes the nobles seem like less of jerks. Besides, the backround allows me to swat in another mage hero (something this nation heroes have to have in order to make luck scale attractive). |
Re: MA Bretonnia: Compulsory hype/brainstorming thread.
Ok, I've done the descriptions (saved in to the first post if my computer happens to bust). Because I have some troubles with english grammar, Sombre has promised to take look and polish them up (he's just that awesome, I guess). Now I'll start working on the .dm file.
I'll probably release the first playable version within two weeks. |
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