Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

So how effective is Horror Mark and/or Astral Geyser in rendering an enemy unit hors-de-combat if you yourself have no way of summoning Horrors (you're Astral only, no Blood)?

(Yeah, yeah, not very subtle regarding a certain MP game I'm in at the moment, but it's supposed to be a learning experience anyway, so hey, I'm trying to learn! ;) )

I did a search of the Forum, and found a few old threads from years back. Apparently back in '06 there was a nerf to horror action? What's the current state of Horror-Marking?

Back then, someone speculated that there were different "tiers" of Horror Marking (in this thread, in which KO also talked about a nerf: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...ht=Horror+Mark ), in that 'regular' horror marking, via the spell of the same name, didn't really achieve much, even if a target was hit numerous times. But that casting Astral Geyser, or using certain magic items (Kurgi stuff, etc.), could somehow make things worse by an order of magnitude.

But I think there was a guy back in '07 (OK, found that thread here: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...hlight=Horrors ) who complained that getting his pretender horror marked pretty much ruined his whole Dominions experience! Damn, now that's what I'm talking about (as I'd certainly like to ruin someone's experience right about now :D )! Is that level of incapacitation still possible, and if so, how?

All that was olden days speculation though. What're the latest thoughts on the matter? Can you mark up a unit enough to where it gets visited by Doom Horrors every other turn? If so, how much marking are we talking about?

Is the difference between Horror Mark and Astral Geyser (and say, using certain magic items, or being hit by horrors in combat) just a matter of number/level (meaning, 1 Astral Geyser = 2 Horror Mark spells), or is there something else going on?

I'm just wondering if it's worth my time trying to make this a strategy, or would I just be wasting my mages' energy (and perhaps their lives)?

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

I'm in a game now where my pretender has been badly horror marked by some pure astral mages. Its gotten to the point where he now fights a doom horror every turn (winning most of the time). Is it inconvenient? Yes. Sure my pretender isn't dead, but his MR is so high that that is the only thing astral mages can do to him. i sure wish they had decided to spam soul slay instead.

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

In detail, I don't know.
But for practical experience, I had a prophet sufficiently marked in one SP battle that he attracted a Horror (not a Doom Horror) within a couple turns.

It probably works best in the early game. Most SC pretenders won't be kitted out
to deal with even regular horrors early on
If nothing else, it's a good psychological weapon. Is your enemy really willing to keep sending his pretender to get Horror Marked again and again? If it doesn't get him killed right away, but he gets pulled from the field that's probably good enough...

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Playing as Rlyeh against blood nations I will routinely have one maged tasked with casting nothing but horror mark.

The intent is more as a defensive measure should he cast horrors.
I wouldn't call it a stellar technique..But my opponent never cast horrors....

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Almost worthless in my experience.
Perhaps if you spam horror mark by 10+ mages for 10+ turns... but then you could have killed your enemy with soul slay instead (or stellar cascades, cough). No MR is high enough to be 100% fail-safe.
Not that I ever used horror marking... but I had it used against me a few times. With absolutely no bad consequences for me.

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Horrormarking has a niche use. If you're up against blood nations spamming horrors or mass sabbath casting hell power, yes, spamming it a big yes. I mean horrors are also infinitely annoying if you get a high enough horror mark that horrors actually start attacking the commanders. Astral geyser spammed properly is useful that way.

But generally, horror marking more of a defense against horrors should they be used by a blood nation, and most assuredly an offensive spell if you are the blood nation.

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

As I suggested above it's a very nice early counter to an SC pretender. It's Thaum 1, so easily reachable within a few turns of being attacked, even if you didn't have it already.
And pretender SCs in the first year or two don't usually have the gear researched or forged to handle even regular horrors.

Other astral counters are much higher research or ineffective against SCs.

It's like curse. Sure, it won't kill you right away, but it's a good deterrent. And unlike curse, it does get worse with more castings. 4-5 mages scripted to 5xHorror Mark, retreat with enough chaff to delay.

Again, mid-late game there are better options and being Horror marked isn't so deadly, but early on it's scary.

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Yeah, I completely agree. Horror marking and curse are those spells that just have to be used against SCs, or at least, to reduce their effectiveness. Early game, it's nasty, but once you get even adequate gear, it loses alot of effectiveness (barring doom horrors, those are just crazy). For example, I was spamming horrors in one LA game against an invading Utgard. The horrors I summoned on the battlefield just died rather quickly against his werewolf or two with frost brands. I mean, frost brands! But yes, it's still useful, just not really that useful.

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

The thing about horror marks is that once they attract a horror that guy usually has an attack that increases the level of horror marking, in turn increasing the amount (and kind) of attracted horrors even if the first one is killed. Gets annoying really fast.

Though, given that the threat you face has defence in high 20s, don't know how many lesser horrors at least manage to hit him. So marking might be of questionable utility.

Or then again, not.

;p

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

It also depends on your enemies magic path's and strength. Ive had pretenders horror marked to the point where they were attacked by a doom horror every turn but it was easily handled with Gifts from Heaven which took the horror out on the first turn every time except for the few occasions where the Doom horror brought several other horrors with it but even then it was handled easily enough.

I'd say that a commander without the ability to cast a really high damage spell like that with aqueduct accuracy would be in trouble though. *Granted I was wishing every turn under Arcane Corruption so I was kind of increasing my chances of being attacked too haha* I actually never stopped casting Wish so I'm not sure if I'd have still been attacked by Doom Horrors every turn even without casting but I'm guessing I would have.

But the whole point is that if your enemy has spells capable of taking out the horrors like Incinerate or Frozen Heart or Gifts from Heaven for Doom Horrors then the whole effect of it is lost anyways since it doesn't matter how often they are attacked.

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

True, but then at least they're changing their scripts to deal with the horrors. That will likely make them less useful in the field (which is my goal - how many horror marks would it take for you to change your scripts, atul? :D )

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Dunno, haven't noticed any effect yet. More than what you've accomplished thus far?-p

Pythium, turn 20ish, easy research. You could do better. :p

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Hey, I've been busy! Plus, that fight was obviously something of a surprise for me, and I was just hoping I got some value in exchange for those 100+ casualties (I was actually kind of surprised my mages defaulted to Horror Mark in that situation, and cast it so often)! :p

Now that your pretender is apparently fleeing in terror, I guess it's all kind of a moot point :D

Joking and trash talking aside (to fill people in on this private conversation, atul's pretender CTed in on a big army of mine that was threatening an ally of his, and trashed it, but racked up a lot of horror marks in the process), the incident was definitely food for thought, and hence this thread.

So please, if anyone else has anything to contribute, whether more anecdotes, or hard data (does anyone have that?), do so. I'm sure atul and myself would appreciate it ;)

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Hi fellas.

Well, since I made that post all those years ago -- I've learned a few things about playing Dom3 and mostly about dealing with the nastier things that can happen. Personally, I'm always fond of playing an Immortal god if I'm going to go SC'ing around. But its not really necessary...

At least if I'm immortal its like, "Huh. That was interesting. Mmm coffee." But otherwise I like to ... become powerful really fast. Seriously. The meaner horrors are pretty horrific (unsurprisingly) but yeah, there are some good spells you can do to sort them out. Having a commander guarded by a solid group of guys helps a lot. With the right spells it doesn't take too much to kill them. That said I find the non-humanoid's like the Wyrm to be quite a bit less capable for dealing with them. Some of the higher level, more powerful spells are really extremely powerful... its worth going for a few of them early on if your gonna take a personal hand in things.

If you end up having to fight off horrors, well, yeah, script in a few of your meaner spells and sort them out. It just means in a regular combat a few poor enemy militia get hit by some really nasty stuff and die spectacularly ;)

After a while, I find visiting horrors to be manageable. I just take solace that when I am the one true god, I will take a really, really, personal sort of revenge on those guys for the trouble. ;)

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

But if you're relying on bodyguards and the higher level single target spells you're not going to be cloud trapezing around destroying armies.
The single target spells aren't army destroying spells, nor are the buffs you use to take armies in melee what you want against horrors.

If you have to change gear/scripts to cope with potential horrors, you're not as effective against me. That's a win.

Again, even more so against a SC backing up an early rush, or even in the first series of wars, when horror counters are harder to come by.

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Dunno. The fact of life numero uno with dominions is that if your opponent wants some particular unit of yours dead it will be sooner or later. So better just not grow too attached.

Though pretender dead by endless swarm of horror attacks is usually the most sure way of pretender being down and staying there. If you can accomplish it.

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

This is all true stuff. Unquestionably ;) But yes, my point though, is that horror mark can be dealt with. Its a nuisance, and it will likely end an SC pretender traipsing around your lands willy-nilly. Just like the spells supposed too. Its a great counter to SC's. It just makes said traipsing a lot more dangerous, and it will end up making me use my pretender for other things.

I wasn't trying to say that horror mark wasn't effective, only that I can live with it. It makes living a bit more complex, and a bit less flexible. And sometimes a bit shorter.

Thats why its never a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket! ;)

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

As a battle tactic, it is marginally useful. As a tool for psychological wafare, it is invaluable.

People tend to get super attached to SCs and Thugs, and Horror marking them "ruins" them in the eyes of these players. Sure, only one or two may die, but the player feels less confident sending Marked units into battle and so their threshhold for quitting becomes that much less.

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Oh hell, I totally do myself. For someone with serious villain/evil inclinations, I have a bizarre habit of getting attached to my commanders. I even get attached to my troops once they become veteran enough. Its probably a bad thing, but hey, thats the game for me ;)

That said. My strategy is moving toward having a couple of solidly equipped thugs clambering along with an army. I play a mod-side that I made that is basically bits and pieces of things that I like -- it doesn't really contain anything fancy (Well, except a unit I made, a Howitzer. Works as advertised. I'm pretty pleased with the sprite too.).. it doesn't field things like SC's out of the box but I think it does field excellent thugs if you equipped them nicely. The point is though, I try and disperse a good group of them. That way, if anything goes wrong and they get offed, there are others who can receive the love of affection of their god still.

If one gets horrormarked or some such... well, I think the best thing you can do is use 'em till you lose 'em. Long as you keep that in mind horrormarking is annoying, effective, but not devastating. Probably works best on sentimental types ;)

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

You probably need about 50+ horror marks from horror mark/astral geyser to get decent horrors to turn up and attack with reasonable frequency. Depends to an extent on the SC you're facing too: one that can't hold a weapon or cast a suitable spell (eg. gifts from heaven) can be in real trouble as they have severe difficulty killing the horror.

Astral Geyser can still be a useful spell, but for the damage not the horror marking. It has got good range and decent AoE, and is cheap in fatigue. It is only 2AN MR, but that still means against most opponents you'll affect every second unit for an average of about 3.5 damage.

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Gifts From Heaven is nice, but I can't see relying on it to one-shot-kill Doom Horrors. I'm pretty sure Kurgi, for instance, has more than 150 HP in addition to his +7 Blood Vengeance (which means you have a decent chance of killing yourself with your own GfH). And Umor has three forms, one of which has True Ethereal, so you CAN'T one-shot him, and even when he's in his third form GfH has a 75% chance of doing nothing to him. I'd totally trust GfH to deal with regular horrors, but Doom Horrors are something else.

Use Shift + 'U' to insert "Eater of Gods" or "Hunter of Heroes" or "Abomination of Desolation" or "Slave to Unreason" into a battle replay and you'll see what I mean. Doom Horrors are bad news and require either a kitted-out SC or a mage with Claws of Cocytus/etc. scripted (or Returning). Regular old gemless evocations like GfH, Soul Slay and Incinerate aren't going to cut it.

-Max

Re: Horror Marking as a battle tactic for a non-Blood nation
 

Well, otoh, as long as you kill those regular horrors before they mark you, you'll probably never see doom horrors.