OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Dominions 3 is of course the hands down best strategy game ever created but the ai is also hands down brain dead...

Does anybody know of a good strategy game with some good AI that i havnt heard of? I doubt it as i think ive played them all :P but one can never know...

I have played C-Evo which has some decent AI. just need an AI mod that uises everything.. (Seti is very very good for instance but no ships... hate that.. an ai that doesnt utilize everything)

Please do not say GalCiv... although decent and better than many that games ai is just not as good as its made out to be.. ive seen it do the most retarded stuff...

anything else??

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Hate to dissapoint you, but GalCiv's AI is miles better than any other strategy game out there. If you want a smarter opponent than that you need to do multiplayer.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Yeah I don't think I've ever seen an AI as good as galciv in a strategy game.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

as i said i think its waaaaaaay over hyped. im not saying its bad as AI's go... but its not really as good as everybody acts. ill try it again i suppose.. maybe i just had bad luck in my 50 games :P I'll report ^^

C-Evos ai seems better to me

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I've to agree with DakaSha i'm also not that satisfied with the GalCiv II AI. Like most games the AI has no "global plan" to defeat human. They always have sometimes really stupid weaknesses and i often ask myself do i just exploit the game when using more effective building/fleet combinations than AI does?

I gave it up to find a really good AI for pro-strategy players on turnbased games. Only other solution is to play MP (dominions like) or with some RTS elements.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Chessmaster 7000? :)

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Don't do it. It's a trap! One which I've fallen for many times in my attempts to force myself to like GalCiv II. I've easily spent over 200 hours on the game, and can't say I've enjoyed any of them if I'm honest.

I've come to the conclusion that you either like the game or you don't, and you either find the AI to be good or you don't (I find even the highest level to be very easy to beat personally). And this usually happens within the first few games you play. As at least in my experience, no amount of extra games or time (or money foolishly thrown at expansion packs) will ever change your impression after those initial games (ie. once you start winning all the time).

One of my biggest 'gaming' regrets in recent years is the amount of hours I've 'wasted' on Gal Civ II. And I'm not someone who considers 'gaming' to be a waste of time in any respect (like some people do). But it is a waste trying to like a game just because it is considered good by so many people. Even if it's a game you know in theory you should like, because you mostly always like all 'those type of games' (this latter point was always the bait that made me fall for the Gal Civ II trap repeatedly).


Not sure if I know of any good AI's for any strategy games. Although I find the CivIV AI to be better than most. At least I know I can't always beat the top AI level every time. Although that's almost entirely due to the bonuses it gets, so not really correct to say it's a 'good' AI I suppose.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Try a computer chess game. They usually have good AIs. ;)

All AIs have flaws, and any decent human will eventually spot those flaws and exploit them. My experience is generally that the more complex the game, the weaker the AI, so you could try looking for pretty simple games. It's often best looking for pretty hardcore gaming devs who mostly use internet dealing these days, as they tend to pay more attention to AI as it's more valuable to their customers than mass-market releases.

Some developer names I could suggest - although some do games where you only chuck troops around on a battlefield - with pretty good AIs I've experienced or had recommended are Gary Grigsby, SSG, Panther Games and AGEOD. Frankly, you should beat the AI on any of them as soon as you've got a hang of the game, but hopefully they'll keep you busy for a while.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I just want to add I am in no way suggesting anyone plays galciv II - I had a similar experience to calahan - it seems like a good game but I just don't enjoy it. At all. It feels like running a spreadsheet.

Nor am I saying the AI is great. But it's better than any other PC strategy game AI I've seen.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I far preferred galciv over galciv II. The ai's about as clever in both games but galciv is somewhat simpler and the ai seemed to handle the game better.
c-Evo is very easy to beat imo.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Please let us know if you find one :)

It was actually during a long, and mostly fruitless hunt for a good TBS game three years ago that I managed to find Dominions 3. Maybe there's something else lurking out there waiting to be discovered?!!? Although I did go through a lot of time and money before managing to find Dominions 3. I shudder when I think of some of the stuff I bought. So I can't say I'm hopeful of there being lots of undiscovered gems out there.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

It's real time strategy so I may be digressing, but Empire Earth had some awfully challenging AI. Although, it was probably too hard.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I have to agree with those who are recommending computer chess, even if it was tongue-in-cheek. As Agema has mentioned, games with simpler sets of rules can generally get deeper-thinking AIs programmed for them.

I've actually had some experience at working on improving AIs for open source TBS games. In one case it was for an existing TBS game engine that could run different kinds of games, depending on the game definition files you fed to it. I was younger then: more ambitious and less reflective. As I got further and further into that project, the full enormity of the task became apparent. It is truly a non-trivial undertaking to make an AI that plays well in a variety of circumstances when a lot of variables are in play.

I also started to develop a Python AI for Wesnoth about a year-and-a-half ago, but became frustrated by the limitations of the sandbox environment they had set up (for security reasons). Someone else actually had put together a Python AI that was a decent tactician, but it was computationally expensive and there was no "strategic level" thinking. I took some of his ideas and worked on one that performed some strategic analysis and kept coherent goals across multiple turns. It was doable, but I don't think it was a huge improvement, because there are so many situations where one kind of strategic analysis doesn't work well. (Closeness of starting positions, victory conditions, etc... can all force significantly different approaches to the game.)

So, I think you can sink a lot of thought and a lot of code into making a good AI, but after a certain point there are diminishing returns. "Use cases" that someone cares about do slip through the cracks. My guess is that professional game development shops realize this, determine a threshold that they deem good enough, and then don't expend much effort beyond that point.

As mentioned in an earlier post, humans are generally more challenging intelligences to play against. If I could go back in time and change some of my participation in the TBS engine project, I would not have touched the AI and would have instead focused my efforts on getting the networking code back in good shape. Working multiplayer functionality trumps having a decent AI, in my opinion. (Of course, if you have both, then more power to you.)

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Well, if you're looking beyond TBS then you could try WC3. It managed to stomp me and 2 of my buddies at just the average setting. We do suck pretty bad though, so who knows...

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I really could not have said it better myself. The only difference for me was that I was done with it after a few dozen hours. If I could thank you twice for that post, I would.

Sombre: I think you do spreadsheets everywhere a disservice. ;)

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

one of the first things i noticed about the AI in galciv (and im noticing again now) is how it thinks it has to colonize planets deep in my sphere of influence...

thanks for the free planet :rolleyes:

again... the AI might be the best in the world of semi-complex TBS AI's but why does it have to do something that moronic?


and yeah games with more simple rules are def better AI-wise.. im sure thats why galciv is actually so simple under all that make up....

im pretty decent with GML in game maker so ive been letting game concepts swirl around my head... Im trying to get a strategy game system down that includes all of the "cool" things like espionage, technology and my personal fav supply lines but is done in a simple enough fashion to allow the creation of a decent AI. An AI that can plan on simple mathematical facts (like chess) while allowing some deeper strategy (like uhm...well other TBS games)

of course ill prob just start coding and stop after a month but i can at least dream :P

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I would say battlebots has the best AI i've seen.. at least the most challenging to beat.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Even AI chess can be pretty poor. For instance, Chess Titans will swap equal value pieces with you no matter if you are a piece up on the AI. This scenario plays out every single time unless AI has a move that forces you to lose a piece without the AI losing one.

So basically you can beat Chess Titans every single time if you get one piece up, just by swapping pieces the rest of the game and once your down to nothing you are the only player with a power piece left, putting you in a great position to win the game.

I am sure other Chess AIs are probably better (I mean they have chess programs that beat champions), but I figured the AI was pretty standard for the types of chess games most of us are playing.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

It seems to be a constant problem with AI in complex TBS games that they never have an overall strategic plan that ends in winning the game. I can't say I've seen any really competent AIs, but Civ 4 Beyond the Sword on the higher difficulty levels can be challenging and the AIs will eventually focus on a certain type of win (often its spaceship though, which they're not that good at, but I've seen AIs going for cultural wins I've lost a fair share of games because the AI beat me militarilly). Admittedly it gives the AIs a rather massive handicap on the difficulties that are challenging.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

During the years I've made several attempts to address several of the major AI issues in Dominions, but rarely any luck. :(


Unfortunately most developers place small amounts of value on the AI... or sometimes even less. First, the AI developing is one of the most complex features in a game. Second, most developers are only interested in being on the team which improves graphics or designs the user interface because during a future job interview it's easier to display what visuals you've provided as compared with what AI strategies you've developed. So unfortunately anything AI usually gets the short end of the developers time stick.

There is some hope coming in a future TBS game called Elemental:War of Magic, where the AI can be modded by the gaming community. So even if the original game has the usual unsatisfactory AI... with time it will gradually be improved by the community.
I'm on the beta testing team for Elemental:War of Magic... so I'll be working towards making sure the game basics are stable. While I'm very pleased with the work from Illwinter, I was disappointed with the beta testers of Dominions_3.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I am not so sure. I worked in a game company and know several developpers who worked on ai in other game companies. The devs would usually like to create a good ai, because it's an interesting problem.
However, playtesters tended to complain if the ai was too good (hard) in some games. The difficulty of the ai is aimed at casual players, and developping something more elaborate would only be interesting for a small part of the market, and cost a lot to develop.
Galciv had a better than average ai, and Elemental probably will, because the CEO codes it himself because it's his pet peeve. Opening the code can of course leads to even better ai, as Civ IV showed. I have good expectations for Elemental too.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

TW games (medieval 2, rome) AI is among the most retarded I've ever seen : generals charging pike walls (with the rest of their army waiting backward...) ; full stack militia when they can recruit elite units ; units piled at a bottleneck, like gates, blocking each otherwhile you shoot at them... The list is long, and modding only very partially changes that, most mods only add more gold for the AI, along with similar 'cheats'.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Master of Orion (the 1st one) has a very decent AI, i enjoy a lot playing from time to time and it always gives me a good challenge and does not seem to cheat in any ways.
playable under Dosbox for modern computers without any problems.

I remember reading that the AI in the RTS "Battle Realms" was too strong in the unpatched game and they toned it down a lot in the patches. I have no idea how it was, having only played the standalone expansion "Winter of the Wolf" that include an already patched Battle Realms, i would really have liked to try.
Winter of the wolf had a challenging skirmish AI though.

An immense disapointment regarding the skirmish AI for me was with Red Alert 2, it was so bad that even at the highest difficulty, it was actually very difficult to not cripple or destroy it.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Strategic ai that is. The tactical battle ai was utterly moronic.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I find that even the modded CivIV ai is moronic... it still cheats and just builds 15 units (literally.. somtimes more) to defend its citys while NEVER starting wars... i love how wars dont even begin till 500AD...

Ive been playing GalCiv2 again and have to admit that the AI is definetly the best ive played against. Im playing on medium maps which makes a big difference i think (i was playong on the really big maps before)

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I think the GalCiv AI gets exponentially better on the smaller maps for obvious reasons. Although a part of loves the huge maps, I found the smallest map setting to be the most challenging/interesting.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Strange. With aggressive ai on, which should always be the case, the ai is somewhat aggressive. Not as much as a human, but it will strike early if it feels its neighbour is weak, akthough it depends a lot on the personality (Gandhi will hardly ever attack for instance).

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

It's RTS, not TBS, but try Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance WITH the SorianAI mod. You wanna see a good AI, check that out! Represents a couple years of work by a modder to get the AI in shape, and while it's not perfect (no AI) is, it's still very competent.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Since no one has mentioned it - I thought the AI was pretty good in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. The problem of the AI disintegrating on large maps was there, to be sure, but on small maps, the AI could be surprising, and when it started a war with you, it usually had the troops to make for a serious invasion. The AI in SMAC seemed better than the AI in Civ4, to be sure, where the AI really doesn't even know how to effectively use different kinds of units in combination.

If I could change the AI of all games in one major way it would be this: the AI should not know which player is the human. Frankly, having an AI bulk itself up with extra units seems a less egregious form of cheating to me. If game designers followed this rule, I believe it would force them to design AI's that could generate competant game-plans, rather than just design a sort of collusion to make the game feel "balanced".

I say this because to have an effective plan, an AI need not be perfect, or even extremely complicated. The most important thing is that the AI have some plan. By which, I mean, a long-range plan that it will stick to - at least for a time. AI's that react on a turn by turn basis will never be effective. As a chess-master once said - it is better to have a bad plan than no plan at all.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I think I found some of the Allied General scenarios difficult to complete in the bonus timeframe on the hard settings. Probably it's easier to code the AI when it's a fixed map, and the time limit helps too.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Agreed. Here's a checklist for good AI in Civ4:

1. Are you playing Beyond the Sword?
2. Have you installed the 3.19 patch, which includes some AI improvements?
3. Have you enabled Aggressive AI?

Please note that Aggressive AI is sort of a double-edged sword. It encourages the AIs to build more troops, which definitely gives them a better chance against bloodthirsty humans. On the other hand, all of those troops can cause the AIs to fall behind in other areas, especially tech. A dedicated science fiend could have an advantage over Aggressive AI by simply out-teching the AI until he can send Riflemen against Longbowmen.

Off-topic a bit, but if you enjoy Civ4:BtS, then you should definitely try the BUG or BAT mods:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=268

BUG stands for "Beyond the Sword Unaltered Gameplay". It doesn't add new nations, units, techs, or other content. Instead, BUG improves the user interface. It includes a lot of great alerts to minimize the micromanagement. BUG also serves up a lot of information to the player. Civ4 will show you all of this information by default, but you usually have to go clicking through half-a-dozen screens every turn in order to find it. BUG saves you the work.

BAT is simply BUG with a number of graphical enhancements. It makes a pretty game look even prettier. :)

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

@vfb
Scripted, timed scenarios are never a measurement for AI, but only for the players' ability to fight against the running clock

@sevenwarlocks
"AI's that react on a turn by turn basis will never be effective." - that's exactly what the Dominions AI (mostly) does .. go figure.

@DakaSha
I don't know which "modded" Civ4 AI you have played, but I'm pretty sure the "Better AI" mod in it's later versions gives a pretty good AI - and the cheating does not come from the AI routines, but from the difficulty settings, which basically do not do anything else than giving the AI lots of adavantages, but not making it smarter. I always feel that the highest difficulties do not make for harder game, but a worse one, because the whole thing becomes seriously unbalanced, and I have the slight suspicion that they're even detrimental to the AI because of the missing balance.
Pretty nice AI I also found in the TAM and Rhye's mod, and in AoDII for Colonization.


Actually, Civ4 is the game I play the most at the moment, not because I like it that much - I actually, I rather hate the 3D crap - but because it's the one with the most stable network code and the best AI mods, and it Alt-TABs very fine on my machine...

I own GalCiv2, too, and IMHO the AI is greatly overhyped - and it's a rather simple game, compared to SE4/5, Civ4, Dom3 or others ...


Finally, on the question for a strategy game with a really good AI:

There ain't !!
:( :cry:


edit: PS - I should do Kwok some justice. He's doing fine work with this Balance Mod for SE5, and the AI really has become much better. Sadly, with all that additional AI scripting (partly to get around design errors in the hardcoded part of the game) turn generation times skyrockets ... I'm running 15min- end turns calculations now, and I'm barely midgame :cool:

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Well, I guess all AIs have some sort of plan hardcoded into them.
However an AI that just gets some goals and formulates the plan themselves reacting to the situation is a whole different matter and far from easy imo.
It might be not even possible, take game theory, most of the algorithms designed to lead to the perfect strategical behaviour fail miserably when put against normal human behaviour. It's not even that humans play better, but they don't necesseraly take the determinable "best" step invalidating the underlying algorithm.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I have the latest version of CivIV BtS... always play with aggressive AI, USE BUG and have tried the BetterAI.. sorry... it just turtles itself with a billion units.. gets along fine and dandy with everybody and and is just plain boring. see thats the real problem... ok so the game is complex... the AI needs to cheat. but could it at least be more aggressive??? please? This game is about human history. there should be more than 15 wars by 2000AD (max!). Ive played games where the computer declared war ONCE (on another AI) by 1650.... thats when i just quit and officially branded the game a retarded piece of crap :P

I wish Space Empires' Interface wasnt so tedius or id try kwoks mod out. He is planning on some interesting changes next update... see this is how important it is to me... i know about mods for games i dont even play :D

GalCiv is pretty fun now... It is really simple under all the glitz but i prefer some simplicity with decent AI over super complexity with braindead AI's.

Ill prob notic it doing something extremly stupid over the weekend and quit though *sigh*

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I like Masters of Orion II with personal modifiers like "no missile ship whoring." The AI isn't brilliant but the game is so much fun and can be made challenging if you want it to be. You can also just not spend race creation points to take the score multiplier.

Pick "Uncreative" for an extra challenge!

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

heh ive played countless hours of moo2. ai = braindead.. but yeah at least it fights. actually its really aggressive so at least a good challenge

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

Heroes 3 is quite decent. The game is so simple the computer cant make foolish mistakes.
Is quite challenging if you use the hardest level. Is not perfect tough.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

HOMM 3? Arguably the best of the series, and some of the scenarios could be a real struggle. Some of the mini-campaigns that were released were rather fun too.

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

actually heroes 3 was quite good ai wise

Re: OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI
 

I cant even remember the last time i lost to an AI that wasnt caused by overwhelming advantage the Ai is given in production

Ai doesnt seem to be improving as fast as the rest of games is ...


Last time i came close to losing was a Matrix game Advanced Tatics.. First few games i nearly lost... And prolly would of one if not playing wtih a friend to who saved my bacon.. Its super aggressive and goes for supply lines

But sadly one notices the Ai cant choose more than 1 division to attack with.. And once you figure out how to do flank attacks with multiple divisions and such and it doesnt.. It becomes so easy..