Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

This thread's only for Russia's infantry ORBAT.

First question I have is - what's with all the trucks? I don't see that many trucks in most other ORBATs. Yes, the Russian forces are the World's most mobile forces, but that doesn't mean that every single possible truck formation has to be included. For instance take the Machine Gun: You have 3 Machine Gun units, and sixteen possible combination to cover them, at least one of which has never been used, the one with 2 GAZ-66 trucks transporting 12 machine-gunners. It may have been improvised in the heat of battle, but that would never be a starting position for the Russians. Those sixteen slots can easily be reduced to two, and if whoever is playing wants the vehicles, he/she can get them from the Armor ORBAT. Similar stuff could be said about AGTMs.

On the other hand, why does SpetzNatz only get two slots? In Russia there are multiple ways to combine SpetzNatz. For instance SpetzNatz Scouts can work separately, they're not always together. But an even bigger issue arises with the SpetzNatz Group. Although the way it's presented is perfectly realistic, there are a multitude other combination that I can think of. Light Commando SpetzNatz units can operate on their own. Also a formation of two Light Commando SpetzNatz units and Commando Support is possible. Or same formation with Commando Engineers instead of Commando Support. Or both. SpetzNatz are trained to operate with just their own squads should the need arise.

I don't know, it just seems, well odd, that machine guns have more formations than SpetzNatz. Also, for SpetzNatz, the first and fouth Light Infantry are exactly the same, and the 2nd and 3rd support units are identical.

Anyways, let me know if you guys want me to rant more. I mean the Russian ORBAT here is well designed, it has the right units, just the weirdest combinations that I've seen.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

I think you will find the wide range of MGs & ATGMs with transport is so other formations can use them so they are needed due to the way the game is structured.

Example if you buy say a BMP Co Plus it has MMGs &or ATGMs attached.
The easy way to do this is to attach a pre built formation so it uses the MMGs/ATGMs of the same vehicle type in effect attaching that platoon(s)
Companys consist of a leader followed by platoons but the platoons need to exist so it can use them.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

I see what you mean. But then what about just plain trucks? For instance if Russian units only have six men, they'd use a jeep, they'd never use a truck. If they're going to be in the thick of combat, they might use a BMP - I'm ok with that.

Also, I still think the SpetzNatz should offer a wider selection. For instance, the Naval Infantry has over 10 slots, SpetzNatz has two. I have already posted some suggestions on how to add more slots.

In addition, there were Chechen Guerillas fighting on Russia's side, which should give the ORBAT acess to units like Battalion Vostok and Battalion Zapad, which performed magnificently in the South Ossetian War.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

To my knowledge the Chechens were far from magnificent and contributed to large portion of Russian casaulties by running blindly into a short-range ambush, but that's another matter... If you want Chechen forces added to your mix, buy them as "Allied" either from Chechen OOB (70) or Red OOB (43).
The AI will not do so, but then their use is fairly limited to few special occassions on Caucasus.
As for Russian infantry units, I won't touch the OOB with a ten-foot pole if I were you, it is just so interlocked on all sides that making a minor change might result in the need to rework all. Believe me - I have tried to change APCs from "Wheeled", "Tracked" etc to "squad-capacity" (BTR-60PB+ and BMP-1+) and "larger" (from early BTR's with cap of 17 to MT-LBs) and it was pretty painful ;) Add to that very few free slots...

If you really wanted to do some changes to Russian OOBs, you might use few tricks still (like changing all snipers to para snipers and deleting the duplicates etc) but you need to be very careful.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

So in short, as I suspected, it's very messy. Alright, I'll just add some formations to it, and post them here, as well as going through it and deleting formations that Russians never used. I'll do that after my PBEM games end, or I'll see if I can use a friend's computer for it. But yeah, looks like it's in need of a major overhaul.

As for the Chechens, what you are talking about are Green Recruits who charged at anything and everything. I'm talking about more experienced Chechen Fighters, under GRU Command. These for instance got disbanded, but there are more battalions like these. I guess judging by the number of slots, that won't happen though.

Linky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...stok_and_Zapad

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

Put a second install on your computer & use that.
Just copy & paste your MBT folder somewhere else
Now place a shortcut to GAME OPTIONS on your descktop & rename it to something like MBT mod & your original instal is safe.

If you then create something you want to use just copy it over.
Note however the program is very good & backups of original OOBs are always available to restore unless you get really silly.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

Second the suggestion for a separate modding install, esp. if you run some PBEM - you'll be spared a bit of the OOB administration that way.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

Cool, thanks :D Well I'll just do some upgrades for the Russian ORBAT, maybe put the Iskander in, play with SpetzNatz, and post the files here. It might take a while though.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

Iskander, one has to ask how & why? The purchase cost you come up with will be intresting.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

From wikipedia: "Quoting unconfirmed reports, Moscow Defense Brief [the most credible journal on the 2008 South Ossetia War] says that it was an Iskander missile that inflicted the high precision strike on the Georgian Separate Tank Battalion base in Gori. An Iskander missile also made a direct hit on the arms depot, causing it to explode and inflicting extensive damage on the tank battalion. Russian officials have not admitted to using the Iskander missile against Georgia, but unofficial reports testify to the high effectiveness of the Iskander missiles, as one of the most devastating and accurate weapons in the Russian arsenal, the paper says." So direct hit/indirect hit, if Iskander hits, see ya later dear unit.

The questions here is to figure out the Iskander's accuracy. The above report confirms that 2 out of 2 targets were hit. And I doubt the Russians would share accuracy data. Is two targets enough of a test? Also, this may explain why Georgians fled their tanks. I wouldn't want to be chilling in a tank, after seeing a neighboring tank blown to smitherines, by a weapon that I didn't even see. However, MDB calls it "one of the most devastating and accurate weapons", so I'd say 90% accuracy? I honestly have no idea. Pretty much everything that I've read praised the Iskander.

As for the cost ratio, I would say that 200 points per missile would be fair, and make it so that you can buy from 1 to 10 missiles. For obvious reasons, it's an off-map unit.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

Okay so you are thinking conventional warhead not tactical, of course other cruise missiles should then be modeled but its not possible in the game. Its an artillery piece & indirect fire pays no attention to the accuracy rating if you read the guide. The only time it comes into play with arty is if you are direct firing so mainly small calibre mortars used against units in view. The Excaliber arty system is another thing that cannot be done correctly unless a new class is invented that always hits the target hex if directed by a Laser/GPS FOO with LOS.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

I suppose you could try to reproduce the approximate effect by creating an invisible aircraft with a really really high EW value called something like "Iskander battery" and having it fire the missile as a PGM. That way you'd have a stand-off launch of the missile by an invisible plane that no SAM system would probably fire at. But even then what's the point really, other than some scenario situations. The Iskander hardly is a battalion commander level asset. And I'm not sure if the numbers go high enough for the game to model the effects of the warhead.

And even if you'd do that, you could still have your invisible Iskander battery doing a flyover of the map in case it couldn't lock on the target.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

Thats what I call "out of the box" thinking.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

Also note that the use you describe were strikes against bases, not against troops in the open - that is the mission of Iskander, not plinking at tank platoons in the field. Sort of like the difference between Air Force cas )close support) and BAi (Battlefield Interdiction) missions - Iskander is for the latter.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

I like this idea :D

It is intended for certain, very specific scenarios. It shouldn't be general use, at least not until more data comes out on how it's used. To my knowledge, the 2008 South Ossetia War was the first time the Iskander was used. And here it was only used twice.

It had 2 strikes, one against the ammo depot, the other against Georgian tanks stationed at the tank base. So at least one tank was killed via a direct hit. "It was an Iskander missile that inflicted the high precision strike on the Georgian Separate Tank Battalion base in Gori. An Iskander missile also made a direct hit on the arms depot, causing it to explode and inflicting extensive damage on the tank battalion."

By base, the MDB means tanks located at the base, because there is not much else to hit. It also singles out the ammo depot as a more specific hit.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

So thats exactly what Marek said a strike at 2 bases not units in the field as thats not its job. You said yourself highly acurate but they will keep the launcher at a safe distance so decent time to target. Therefore attempting to strike a mobile target kinda destroys its accuracy completly it will probably miss unless they guess right. I dont know of any cruise missile attack not conducted vs a stationary target, I would say hardened buildings are its main target.
In game turns you would call it in & it would arrive several turns later during which time you cannot cancel or adjust it.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

No, it didn't strike at two bases. The strike against a tank base was where a tank was hit. Both strikes were at the same base, hitting a tank, and an ammo depot. It can hit moving targets, if the movement of the targets is known. Ideally it should be used like a bombardment before the start of your opponents turn. Or at the end, when the mortars are usually fired.

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

Err, hitting a tank in the base is not hitting a moving target. Esp. with cluster warhead. It's a bit the same as claiming that level bomber can hit a moving target because it destroyed truck just as it was passing the crossroads subject to carpet bombing ;)

Re: Ideas on Improving Russian ORBAT (Infantry)
 

Idealy it should be usedagianst bases airfields possibly huge defensive positions if enough regular stuff is not available as last resort, yes it was hoped they might get some colateral damage & hit a tank or 2 but that was not its main objective that was to prevent the tanks being used by destroying supply etc. I am guessing a rather expensive way to kill a couple of tanks. Final post on but did its predecessers Scuds fire at units in the field or bases/infastructure, Tomahawks?
So cant model the weapon correctly & it might get used that way once anyway so why not just buy a few big rockets & use instead as way way more likely.
You could build the vehicle not bothering to mount the missile & use it in a scenerio where destruction of it/them wins but thats about its scope in this game really. Be a nice target for the other sides Spetsnaz equivalents.