Momentum 2 - Finished - Psycho/Pan wins!
 

This game will make some changes to (hopefully) eliminate some aspects of the end game I don't find interesting (race for the Chalice/Tarts, clam hoarding). My aim is to reward players who fight and win wars and penalize turtlers.

It will use CBM 1.5 with the following changes:

1) No hoarding. This means gem generators (clams, fetishes and blood stones) and Soul Contracts will be unique. Onaqui will not generate beast bats. Vampire Lords cannot summon vampires.

2) No game winning globals (AN, AC, BoT, FotA, Utterdark).

3) Tartarian Gate will be replaced by individual Summon Tartarian spells. The tarts summoned with these spells will all be commanders, will not have afflictions and will not be insane. Since the need for the Chalice or GoH (or GoR) will be eliminated, tartarians will be priced more in line with other SCs:

Tartarian Titan: 60 D
Tartarian Titaness: 50 D
Tartarian Lightning Cyclops: 50 D
Tartarian Cyclops: 40 D
Tartarian Spirit: 40 D
Tartarian Monstra: 35 D
Tartarian Monstrum: 20 D

Stats and magic paths will be the same as the existing tarts.

Casting requirements will stay the same at D7 (except for the Monstrum at D5) and level will still be Conj. 9 for all types of tarts.

4) Well of Misery will be moved from Conj. 8 to Evo. 8 so someone racing to Conj. 9 can't pick up WoM along the way.

I will make the usual request for players not to abandon the game without finding a sub, but even more importantly, I'd like this to be a quick game: 24 hour hosting until turn 30, 48 hour hosting after that until the end of the game. To make that possible we will only have 8 players.

Hosting: llamaserver
Age: Middle
Map: dead seas, fixed start version of Parganos
Banned nations: Ashdod, water nations

UPDATE: The mod is attached to this post. Please let me know if you run into any problems when testing. NOTE: revised version 1.1 uploaded (you'll know you have the correct version if it says "Momentum2 1.1" in the mod list).

C'tis - yandav
Eriu - PsiSoldier
Jotunheim - Alpine Joe
Mictlan - AreaOfEffect
Pangaea - Psycho
Pythium - Aethyr
T'ien Ch'i - Dragar
Vanheim - Valerius

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I like the idea. I would like in, but I am going on vacation tomorrow. If you don't start by the time I return (which is 25.) please count me in with Pangaea.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Psycho, I'll mark you down for Pangaea and set the 25th as the start date.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Mictlan Please. (I'm assuming its a middle-age game)

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Yes, thanks for mentioning that. Info added to the first post and I marked you down for Mictlan.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Can we have the blood stone as earth booster without the gemgen effect? Also, are you going to mod out the banned globals?

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I like the settings and I'd like to play, but not sure if I'll have the time for this one.:(

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I'm not interested in playing but wanted to comment on the settings.

(1) I don't understand the need people feel to ban those globals. Ok, I can understand FotA and Utterdark. But other than that...

-I can't even figure out what AC is supposed to be off the top of my head, so can't see how its supposed to be game winning.
-Arcane Nexus isn't a game ending global, its a global which, if cast, just lets you know the game was already over and you should surrender. (Anyone who can cast it and keep it has already won). One could probably say the same about Utterdark.
-Burden of Time is not an 'i win' button. Might as well ban spells like Mind Hunt and Seeking Arrow too, or Wild Hunt...

(2) There should be *some* gem generator in Conjuration, possibly maelstrom since you've moved the conj generator to evocation. (Maelstrom might actually get cast sometime if it were in conjuration too).

(3) You can't just ban gem generators without changing some nations. Not that its allowed in this game, but Oceania (esp MA) is crippled by a lack of clamming. Abyssia desperately needs bloodstones. Etc... Just removing them isn't the answer - those nations which depend on them need compensation.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I'm guessing you haven't been in too many late stage games?

All those games rely on whoever has the most gemgens to win basically.
AC is absolutely a game winning spell as you can hardly dispel it with the amount of slaves you can put in it. Combine it with Armageddon and well, it's game over as there won't be anything left, no gold, no gems, no mages, and than, again, the biggest clam holder wins, for example...

AN isn't a spell that secures you victory, it helps by a great amount but it doesn't win the game for you by far, as you'll automatically be declared enemy of all.

These settings propose an unorthodox playstyle, as ALL the games are about rushing for the chalice and tartarians, along with making gemgen. Here, there is no need for it, and theses settings will demand some other end game strategies besides clamming, wishing and summoning Tarts.

As for balance, every setting you make benefits one and hurts the other nation, there can't be perfect balance.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I really like these settings.

Time to spend some time thinking about how it will effect my nation choice of Jotunheim

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I love this idea. Pythium please.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

@Psycho: I've searched the forums and tried tests on my own but I don't see a way to keep blood stones as only a path booster. I think the problem is that modding magic items is limited; in particular it doesn't seem you can create a new magic item that has a special effect like path boosting. This leaves us with modding unique items and making them non-unique. The three candidates are the Pebble Skin Suit, Boots of Antaeus and Tome of Gaia. The Pebble Skin Suit will give the wearer stoneskin, regeneration and turn them into a troll eventually. The Boots of Antaeus grant reinvigoration and regeneration in addition to boosting E by 1. This might actually be the best bet since we can mod this item to use a different slot (maybe the body slot to limit its use in thugs/SCs?). The Tome of Gaia boosts E and N which is likely more than we'd want this booster to accomplish. If we can agree on a candidate we could mod one of these to serve as an E booster.

Yes, I will mod out the banned globals. So far I have most of the mod complete but I want to double check the tarts to make sure I don't miss anything and I also have to create an onaqui that doesn't summon beast bats.

@Squirrelloid: Executor addressed some of your points but I'll add a couple of things. If this were a larger game I'd likely agree with you that some nations need to be compensated for removing gem gens but with only 8 players no one will be forced to play a nation that needs them. It's unfortunate if this means someone can't play their favorite nation but rebalancing gem gen dependant nations is beyond the scope of this game/mod. As regards Conj. not having a gem generating global, well I'm not sure that it needs one. Even without one, everyone will still research Conj. OTOH it may turn out that putting WoM in Evo. isn't a good idea. Hopefully this will be a fun game and the quick pace will mean in a few months we can fine-tune the settings and try again.

@Executor/Alpine Joe/Aethyr: Executor, I hope you can play. In case it helps, the game won't start until the 25th... Alpine Joe and Aethyr, I've signed you up for Jotun and Pythium respectively. We're over halfway there!

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Leave me a spot with Machaka open for me please Valerius.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Done!

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I suppose it already feels like Maelstrom never gets cast because most nations who would want it have little reason to research that much evocation. I have this feeling Well of Misery will end up in the same boat if its in evocation, although there is more for a death nation there than for a water nation. I might recommend putting Well of Misery in a school that someone with death mages might actually consider researching otherwise.

Evocation makes virtually no sense for Well of Misery thematically, anyway. Perhaps Enchantment would make more sense?

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I agree Evo. doesn't work thematically and Ench. was actually my first thought. But my model was Gale Gate (Thaum. 8 for an air nation?!) and I wanted it to be out of the way. We'll see how it goes, but this and possibly adjusting tart costs will be the most likely changes if there is a second game with these settings.

As far as Maelstrom, it seems to me that water nations are one of the two types (the other being fire) with an incentive to go to Evo. 8/9. If Maelstrom is cast less than the other gem gen globals it may be due in part to the fact the water gems are not viewed very highly (apart from clamming). This is definitely not the case with death gems - I think people will research a school just to get WoM (especially with the changes to tarts). If they are a fire/water nation they'll just get an additional bonus from its placement in Evo. in this game.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Val, there are a few pretenders (Ghost King, etc.) that auto spawn units, do you plan to restrict these as well?

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

those pretender auto-spawns aren't game breaking at all; I wouldn't worry about any of them. Vampire Lords should be changed, though.

All those globals are pretty boring, and I'm not unhappy to see them go.

The costs for the tarts should perhaps be modified a bit. earth cyclops and the monstra 35 perhaps. monstrum only d5 to cast, perhaps?

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I agree that auto spawning pretenders are ok. As an aside, though the mod isn't ready yet if anyone would like to test builds you can use CBM 1.5 since I don't intend to make any changes to pretenders and scales.

Maybe a good rule of thumb is that if the unit is unique (pretender, elemental royalty) the ability to auto spawn/summon allies is ok but if it is not unique then it runs the risk of being abused.

Following that logic it makes sense that vampire lords should be modded to remove their summon ally ability. The only other unit I can think of is the faery queen with summoning sprites. Admittedly I've never heard of anyone using this strategy but following the unique/non-unique rule it seems to make sense. Any other units come to mind?

Archaeo, I like the idea of only requiring D5 for the Monstrum since I wondered if anyone would summon it even at a cost of 20 D gems and considered giving it 1 or 2 misc slots in addition to the head slot to make it more appealing. Having a cost of 35 gems for the Monstra and Earth Cyclops is also worth considering, though in the case of the Earth Cyclops I want to be careful of setting the cost too low on an SC with full slots.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I really shouldn't be playing but i love these setting, so put me down for Tien Chi please

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Wrath Lords can summon 1 ghost a turn.
Werewolves can summon 3 wolves a turn. (Gotten from Call of the Wild)
Mound Fiends can reanimate.

Honestly, I never saw any of the non-unique units-that-make-units make a real difference in a game. At least not by virtue of just making units. Often the opportunity cost of not using them as thugs is way too high.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Dragar, I've signed you up as TC.

Thanks for the list AOE. I have to admit I also haven't heard of any of the units you mention (as well as faery queens) being abused. So I think I'll leave those as-is (less modding for me to do ;)) unless there are strenuous objections.

But I'll follow Archaeo's suggestion and mod vampire lords to eliminate their summon ally ability.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

I'm not too sure about removing vamp lords summon allies ability. After all there is already plenty of conflicting ideas about vamps being worth summoning in the first place. Actually Ive only ever really seen them used in two games and I stomped both nations that were using hordes of them against me.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

OK. I need a game, and this one looks good. Sign me up as Mari.

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Hi, Lingchih. PsiSoldier PM'd me that he'd like in 10 minutes before you posted. But if you'd really like to participate I'll step aside and just admin the game. Either way, I'll close recruitment now.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

Regarding vampire lords, I know there's debate about the usefulness of the vampires they summon. Admittedly it's not as worrisome a prospect as when vampire lords cost 44 blood slaves in CBM as they did a couple versions back but I think I'm still going to eliminate this ability.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

Heh, no, If Psi got in first, you guys go ahead and play. I got in on this game late.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

Ok, thanks. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

or, you could just make it 9 nations. I don't think it would mess up the map too much.


Sorry, I just got knocked out of a game, and need a new one. I'm perfectly fine if you guys cannot fit me in though.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

Hmm, well the map would go from 14.5 land provinces per player to just under 13. That I think is ok but the thing I liked about this was the balanced fixed starts.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

Sorry if you have been waiting on me, I guess you need to know my nation so you can set start locations. I suppose I'll go with Eriu. Cant hurt to have a nation with stealthy commanders that can single handedly wipe out entire armies and sneak away before ritual spells can target them :D

Re: Momentum 2 - no hoarding, banned globals, tart changes, fast pace - Recruiting!
 

Draconian Chief's can summon 1 Draconian a turn.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

Calahan has just ruined my plan to build a never ending supply of handless winded dudes. Foiled once again.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

I thought he originally said "auto summon" not units that can summon allies.. In my mind there is a difference.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

I agree there's a difference. In one case you have the opportunity cost AOE mentioned. I did originally mean only auto spawn units but I agree with Archaeo's point about vamps. It may be partly because of a feeling that the changes made for this game have reduced the gem supply in the end game but I haven't done anything to nerf blood. I think removing vampire lords' summon ally ability (in addition to the soul contract and onaqui changes) is reasonable.

Following up on the issue of using blood stones only as path boosters, not gem gens, I still haven't had any success with this. I'm going to post in the mods forum in case more experienced modders have ideas. If no solutions present themselves I'm inclined to go without a second earth booster (and believe me I'd like a misc slot earth booster for my Vanadrotts).

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

There are a few pretender builds that auto-generate gems, will these be left in tact?

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

No changes to those (or any other) pretenders.

BTW, I haven't had a chance to work on the mod the past few days but I should have it ready for review in the next day.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

OK--thanks

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

I have attached the mod to the first post. Please let me know if you run into any problems. You will want to have only this mod active when creating your pretender - it includes CBM so you don't want that active as well.

Re: Momentum 2 - Closed, prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start
 

I don't think anyone downloaded the mod yet but FYI I uploaded a revised version (you'll know you have the correct version if it says "Momentum2 1.1" in your mod list).

Re: Momentum 2 - Prepare pretenders for Aug. 25 start - Mod ready
 

Also, the first post has been updated and reflects the final changes to the mod. Rather than eliminating clams, blood stones and fetishes and soul contracts completely I made them unique. Slightly adjusted cost of Monstra. And eliminated Vampire Lords summon ally ability.

Buy one Onaqui and get eight beast bats free!
 

Ok, I had a chance to do some testing today and everything seems fine with the mod. The only strange thing I noticed is that when you summon an Onaqui you also get 8 beast bats. But the Onaqui does not auto spawn beast bats after that so I think that's ok.

Anyway, the game is on the llamaserver and ready to accept pretenders!

Re: Momentum 2 - Submit pretenders for Aug. 25 start!
 

Valerius, I apologize as I'll have to back out of this game, I don't have time for it after all, trying to work something out to stay in the games I'm currently in.

Re: Momentum 2 - Submit pretenders for Aug. 25 start!
 

Sorry to hear that, Executor.

I've PM'd Lingchih to see if he's still interested. If he isn't, I'll open up recruitment again.

Re: Momentum 2 - CBM, no hoarding, tart changes - One more player needed!
 

Ling has filled his quota of games so we'll need one more player.

Re: Momentum 2 - CBM, no hoarding, tart changes - One more player needed!
 

I'll take caelum

Re: Momentum 2 - Submit pretenders for Aug. 25 start!
 

Ok, you're signed up and game is closed.

Re: Momentum 2 - Submit pretenders for Aug. 25 start!
 

I got back from my vacation today (I was off by one day, sorry about that) to find out that my telephone line, and my ADSL internet connection with it, have been disconnected.

Short story: I am going to be without internet access for an undetermined amount of time. Feel free to start without me, as I have delayed this game long enough.

Long story: I am a tennant and my landlord had bought the flat where I live a couple of years ago. She asked to have the telephone line in the flat changed to her name a while ago, but the telephone company did nothing. While I was away, the former owner filed to have the telephone line moved (I am not even sure what this means) and the telephone company swiftly disconnected the line. I don't know what happens next. Probably my landlord should get a new line for me, but I don't know how long it will take. It may happen today or it may happen who knows when. I'll come back as soon as I have internet access if you don't start without me.

Re: Momentum 2 - Submit pretenders for Aug. 25 start!
 

I'm fine with giving Psycho a couple of days to sort his stuff out, if it comes down to a vote. If by the weekend he still has no internet we can look for a replacement?

Re: Momentum 2 - Submit pretenders for Aug. 25 start!
 

i vote to wait for him