Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

So the Eater of Gods attacked my pretender. What killed my pretender wasn't Umor, but my pretender repeatedly attacking himself. :shock: Is that supposed to happen?

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

Can you describe a bit more ? (ie : weapons/spells used by your god)

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

Some new information just came up:

My pretender wielded a dwarven hammer, and cast Summon Earthpower and Strength of Gaia. Umor was allegedly routed, but became invisible (except when clicking on a tile for unit information) and kept attacking.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

It wasn't what I was thinking about. Blood Vengeance I think, Eater of gods has got BV 0/+1/+2, as it increases when he changes shape. That why your god his wacking himself.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

Umor has three forms, and it sounds like you got him down to his third form, which has True Ethereal and Blood Vengeance +2. The "X has routed!" notice IIRC just means you've passed the 50% HP limit which requires all units to make a morale check every turn, which Umor will always make since he has Morale 30 (= always passes checks). Low MR on your god or a series of bad rolls could lead to failing every Blood Vengeance check, and thus damaging yourself instead of Umor on every attack.

-Max

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

I don't think this is true. I've never seen anything other than mindless or berserk units stick around after the siderout. I see no evidence of morale checks.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

OT: immortals also stick around after their side routs, unless they have morale<30 and fail a normal morale check.

Not OT: the debug output from the battle might provide some info on what's going on.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

As long as they're in friendly dominion, yeah.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

And horror attacks, assassination attempts etc are considered to take place in 0 dom neutral ground.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

This is not correct. I've had immortal Pretenders die in assassinations attempts, and they've always come back to my cap the next turn if the assassinaiton happended in friendly dominion. Easy to test this as well.

The key is that the immortal has to get killed in the assassination, and not retreat/route. As if it does that then it does 'die', and doesn't come back the next turn.

Edit: Attached a test game showing an immortal dying in an assassination, and coming back to life in the capital.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

Hmm interesting. I distinctly remember losing pretenders to this, most recently losing a Risen Oracle to Vengeance of the Dead.

Did the Risen Oracle actually get killed during the combat, or did VotD make him auto-route at turn 50? Since if the latter then he would actually 'die'.

If you run my test game and place the TC Pretender far back and set him to retreat, you will see that he won't be back in the capital next turn.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

I am pretty sure it was auto route which I figured would be treated like death, but from your saved game that doesn't seem to be the case.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

I have seen it frequently, or else my memory is lying to me. I guess I'll have to check when I get home. Usually it's elite sacreds or commanders.

-Max

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

There are three auto-route conditions:
1.Reaching turn 50
2.Less then 25% total army health
3.Less then 25% squad health (Each commander is it's own squad)

-The first 2 are army-wide auto-routes.
-All three are ignored by mindless (moral 50) and berserked (moral 99) units.
-Having a moral of 30 does not allow you to ignore any of these conditions, it only lets you ignore moral damage and normal moral checks.
-I think being immortal only lets you ignore the 2nd condition. Possibly the 3rd. (Only in positive dominion.)

In regards to assassination:
-A successful route by your commander will cause it to be dead, even if it is immortal and surrounded by positive dominion.
-Actually dying during an assassination will allow immortal units to be revived if in positive dominion.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

Okay, I checked this when I got home and I'm kind of puzzled. I went to a recent battle replay and killed off bunches of my units with Shift + 'K'. It consistently didn't happen that 50% death generated the rout notice, and I kept having to kill off somewhat more than 75% for the notice to happen. Each time I did it, the commander routed, but the one surviving unit did not--he did not get the Routing -4 penalty to defense, and he advanced toward the enemy and attacked. Note that both commander and unit had Morale 30. Perhaps it's just some kind of bug instead of by-design.

-Max

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

After the notice flashes up that an army has routed, everything that isn't Morale 50 or 99 runs off the battlefield as far as I recall. However, I've noticed that when the notice first appears, the army seems to do one last attack before they run.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

That's just because they act before making their final morale check (which they will fail because autoroute is in effect). This is different. The unit made multiple attacks and never got the -4 Def penalty for routing. I didn't play it all the way to the end of the battle so I don't know if he would eventually have routed (he probably would once the commander left the screen but even in that case sometimes a unit doesn't, even if it's not berserk/mindless).

-Max

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

There are some cases where normal moral units will continue to attack if the enemy routs first.

A good example I've used before is with Caelum. In order to get my units to fire for more rounds and then flee, I've simply set the archers to fire and have my commander retreat after holding for several rounds. If the archery happens to be enough to cause the enemy to rout, then my units continue to attack, even though there is no commander on the field. In these cases I'll often sneak a Seraphine into the province so that it can pick up the commander-less army.

Re: Does Umor Make Victims Suicidal?
 

What you seem to be saying is that if your enemy routes first it prevents yours from executing.

I have seen several battles where I have received 3-4 routing messages - and yet normal troops stay on the battlefield.

I have always presumed that Max was correct - that it was a unit route message.

Alternately, I wonder if the computer is checking the various route conditions, and the units in question fail to route due to berserk, entangled or what have you.

For example, you can route from morale loss, hp loss, so perhaps the first route condition is failed - the route message flashes but because there are still units on the field - when the second condition occurs - the msg flashes again...