This is a very miniscule guide to give a couple insights on how I play CBM EA Pangaea. I love to play Pans, even though I rarely seem to actually get on a roll with them :) However, during the past week no less than three people have asked on my opions on Pangaea (they apparently thought I was doing ok in the Magellan game, but the truth is not as glorious, snif), so here I go then :)

I suggest you first take a look at the following guides:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=31535
Gandalf Parker describes well how to use sneaky armies. As Pan, you have to learn to know how to use the sneakers to maximum effect. Sneakers cause mayhem, cut off retreat and advance routes and are a general pain in the butt for the opponent. However, my usual strategy does not build on the sneakers as heavily as I believe Gandalf to use them, but sneakers *are* a very valuable asset in Pans arsenal and it is important to know how to use them.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37759
Dedas descibes how to set up a maenad factory. Personally I do not use that strat (anymore) as I always seem to have maenads coming out of my nose pretty soon anyway. However, when you need to patrol (to root out enemy scouts/assassins, to counter unrest from high tax or blood-hunt, etc) remember those harpies; they are in my opinion perhaps the best patrollers in the game (when you do not expect them to encounter anything worse than a hostile scout at most).

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42971
Baalz' guide to LA Pangaea describes how to use Carrion Woods. Due to the EA Pangaea producing lots of Nature gems and resource demand being lower in EA, CW may in fact be a better strategy in EA Pangae rather than LA Pangaea.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=696454
vfb made some damn EXCELLENT tests about dominion spread. I always felt blood sacrifice is much better than what everybody else felt. Now I know I was right, thanks to vfb :) As EA Pangaea, with cheap temples and access to blood sacrifice, you can make any hostile neighbour weep in agony when you get the blood sacrificing going, if the need arises.



The first thing you have to decide is will you go for Carrion Woods or not.

If you go for CW you are going to look for very tough first year (pray your pretender you won't get hit by a rush), but then should have an easier time, reaching the peak sometime turn 20 and having a field day for the next 20 turns, until the CW will get chain dispelled (in MP, that is) if you try to keep it up.

If you opt to not go for CW, then go for the bull. The bull will lead the way. You will love your bull.


Some thoughts on CW strategy.

There are several ways to go for the CW. The most important thing is to have a dormant pretender with N6 D5, so that he can immediatly cast CW when he awakes at around turn 10-12. CW needs 50 nature gems, and Pangaea gets 5 N gems per turn, so even if there are zero random events or you find zero nature sites during the first year, the CW *will* go up the very turn the pretender appears.

An example for CW pretender:

Dormant Mother of Monsters with N6, D5
Dom6, Turmoil3, Prod0, Heat0, Growth2, Luck3, Magic1

You want turmoil for maxed number of maenads. Maenads are really nice, if you ask me. Luck3 goes with Turmoil3 like a cool shower on a hot day. Growth2 to get higher supply-limit (when you try to move around armies with 2000 maenads, you will get a new view on "supply-problems") not to mention better manikin (oh and Luck3 helps that too). Magic1 to allow slightly faster research (everything adds up as you race towards Mass Protection).

Research Enchantmet 3 first (to get to Revenant who can do the D site searching and summon Mound Kings to lead the manikins), then go for Alteration until you hit Mass Protection.

Manikin will be most efficient when mixed with regular troops. Manikin+maenads is nice, because the manikin stun the opponents and the (frenzied) maenads kill the opponents. The fast manikin (the horse and dog types) can be mixed with centaurs -> manikin stun opponents and the frenzied centaurs tear through anything.
Does the opponent use giants? No worries, a stunned giant is a dead giant when the maenads get to bite their ankles. Does you opponent use a SC pretender with awe, fear, poison and laser beams? No worries, a stunned SC is a dead SC when the frenzied centaurs go medieval on the behind of the SC.

When you get provinces with forests, immediatly build a temple there. In your diplomacy always be stern about forest provinces. Forests are yours. It is worth to go to war over a few forest provinces, if it comes to that. When you see the first elephant manikin spawn in a forest temple, you will be crying in joy; you will remember that moment just like you remember your first born child.

While expanding with the manikin, prepare yourself for the day when the CW will be dispelled. It will be dispelled, don't you worry (there will be a time when you are going to pray for it to be dispelled... the manikin are nice and all, but when there are just too many of them, there simply are too many of them, but CW still continues to kill your population).


Some thoughts on the Bull strategy.

In CBM the White and Black Bull are IMO *very* nice. It's just that they seem to die so easily at times. Happily Baalz did note in some thread how E4 makes a huge difference by pumping up the protection real good. Pans have the pleasure to have a choice between the white and black version, both are very nice although slightly different. The Black Bull can be damn excellent later in the game (gaining massive buffs through reverse communion, then get Reinvigoration cast to reset fatigues, and off you go while the communion masters retreat or shoot with bows), the White Bull is slightly cheaper in design points.

Two examples of bull builds:

Awake Black Bull with E4, N2, B2
Dom10, Turmoil3, Sloth2, Heat0, Growth1, Luck3, Magic0

Awake White Bull with E4, N4
Dom9, Turmoil3, Sloth2, Heat0, Growth1, Luck3, Magic1

First research goal is Enchantment 2 to get Personal regen for the bull, then race Alteration (to get Resist Elements, stone/ironskin not to mention Invulnerability, but also Mass Protection), although I tend to dip to Conjuration 3 too (Summon Earth Power is *nice* for the bull, and you will love Vine Ogres and Sleepers, not to mention annoying your opponents with Call of the Wild).

There are few things that can stop a regenerating stoneskinned frenzied Bull. Ok, Ashdod can (as I found out recently in the Aardwark game), but happily Ashdod is not in EA ;) But as long as you do not attack massed giants, anything should be plowed away. Meanwhile your prophet will lead another army, all the while you generate maenads like mad. However, the glory days for the bull are over soon, and it pays to withdraw to safety when you are still ahead. With E4 the bull can do some very nice forging and cast ritual spells. The Black bull can make a return later, when you have communion capability. I just cant stop drooling over the idea (fantasies, I've never actually succeeded all the following things going in one battle) of a regenerating, lucky, mistformed, flying, trampling, frenzied, bull who has blood vengeance and holy avenger...


The late game.

When planning for the future, remember that Pans are great. You can get some killer communions going, especially if you find some indy astral mages (like lizard shamans, sorceresses), and with a ring of regen plus personal regen they are nearly unkillable with Invulnerability. You will also need to use sneakers more when the regular armies start to disappear, to cut the routes of ground bound SC's and thugs.


Of the troops.

Centaurs are absolutely great. I don't usually use white centaurs, as they are too pricey in my opinion. A frenzied centaur is absolutely fabulous.

Minotaurs I use for on task only: Charge in first at fortress storming. Minotaurs excel at taking forts, but other than that I feel they tend to die in droves.

Revelers are great. Not only do they spread unrest while sneaking, but they kick butt very nice when they go berserk.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Interesting. I love playing Pan, and have done so often, but have always used the Gorgon, for the sheer terror it elicits in your opponents. I could use a change though. Perhaps I will go with a bull next time.

I usually do the manikin thing by hand. That is, just research up until you can summon Carrion Lords, and then plop them in forests with temples to reanimate the manikins. Slower, but you don't have the pop death, and don't have to worry about the global being dispelled, and you get a pretty good reanimation rate going fairly quickly, and you still get the elephants fairly regularly.

Of course, that means for the first 20 or more turns, you are just expanding with nationals, maenads, and the Gorgon, but it seems to work OK. I tend to make friends with my neighbors in those games, since your real power is quite a while in coming.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Lingchih, in vanilla Dom I would *always* take the Gorgon. In CBM not.

There are two main reasons why I would always take a Gorgon over a bull in vanilla Dom3.

1) The bull in vanilla Dom dies of exhaustion, period. In CBM bulls have reinvigoration 2, and that seems to be all you need for the early phases.

2) The price. In vanilla the Gorgon costs 50 points, which is dirt cheap considering she has Earth and Nature magic to start with (no new paths required to get her going). The bull costs 75 points plus new path(s). Even with the higher starting Dominion the bull simply is not worth it considering how easy the bull dies from exhaustion.
In CBM the Gorgon costs 100 points, the bull is 25 points. With the extra point in Dominion (it costs 147 points to go from Dom3 to Dom9, while it costs 196 points to go from Dom2 to Dom9) that oh-so-precious Dom9 *also* saves up points (making the "true" starting price of the Gorgon 296 points vs the 172 points of the bull).


Regarding summoning the Carrion critters. EA Pan has no death mages available, so to be able to summon carrion spawning commanders, you either have to empower a dryad to Death, be lucky with a wolf-tribe shaman (10% chance for N1D1 IIRC) or buy Death magic on your pretender. In my opinion it is an either or decission, a "choose before the game starts" thingy. Ok, if I happen to get a shaman with N1D1 that's nice and all, but I would for sure not plan the strategy on that. Also, considering manikin are in my opinion at their strongest early on (when there are few WMDs available for opponents), it sort of devalues their efficiency more (although I freely admit it is great to suprise offending SC's late in the game with a manikin rush, but that does in my experience succeed only for one turn and then the opponent is ready).

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Yes, of course, you are right Jarkko. I wasn't taking CBM into consideration as much as I should have. The price for the Gorgon has become exorbitant in CBM (and I think QM is even going to hit it with the nerf bat again).

And yes, you do have to luck out to pick up a D1N1, or do some empowering, to do the reanimation tactic. And, with Carrion Woods so easy to cast with CBM, it kind of doesn't make sense not to cast it.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Jarrko, have you looked at a 6/5 carrion dragon, awake or dormant?

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Yes, the problem with the carrion dragon is that it is hard to get all points spent if you take N6 D5, wether awake or dormant. There always seems to be 2 points too little, or 27 points too many :p

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

As I recall there is one way to do it with an efficient use of points. Perhaps its N5D5..?

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Sadly N5D5 is not enough to cast CW...

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Sure, but thistle maces are *easy*.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Easy enough to research during the first 10 turns?


Opinions differ of course, but to me it is obvious Carrion Woods in Early Age is excellent at the start of the game, the sooner the better. When weapons of mass destruction appear and demons with fiery auras appear (fire is the doom of manikin), the days of manikin are over. Thus using Carrion Woods for EA Pangaea is in my opinion an either or choice: Either get it up on turn 10, or don't bother at all. EA Pangaea does not *need* Carrion Woods, but if you go for the option, go for it with full concentration.

LA Pangaea, and in some extent MA Pangaea, could well delay casting CW. The armies are smaller in LA (and even MA), so manikin can be used in smaller numbers to be effective (mixed with the higher prot troops available in MA and LA).

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

I like the CW strategy, but you can't have it up before turn 14 really, well not with a dormant pretender.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

I might be wrong, but in my experience Luck scale affects when dormant pretenders wake up. With Luck 3 (and Carrion Woods without Luck 3 is really not worth it) I've always had the pretender wake up turn 12 latest (usually turn 10 or 11), while with Misfortune 2 I've never had a dormant pretender wake up before turn 12 (usually turn 13). Maybe it's just been a fluke, but it has seemed to me pretty consistent.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

I'm pretty sure that dormant pretenders wake after 1 full year and sleeping between 2-3years, but I might be wrong.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Dormant pretenders wake up at turn 10-13. Imprisoned are released on turns 28-42.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Absolutely...

its only 100 research. 7/14/21/28/35 = 5+1 = 6 turns to research it. Even with money problems you ought to be able to whip it out by turn 10 no problem.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

It's level 4: 40+60+100+160=360 research, not 100.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Really? I just looked it up on Snoddermans... Thistle mace is Con 2 in vanilla..

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

[quote=chrispedersen;707163]
Hmm... 10!=55*7= 385 - so even at con 4 its feasible.
55*8= 440..

Its even not that bad a path for pan with legions of steel, etc.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

I'm not sure what Snoddermans is, but if it says a Thistle Mace is Con 2 in vanilla, it's wrong.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

On your maenads, right? :) Also, it's E3, and you've only got a ~1.5% chance of hiring an E3 Pan.

I can't see how you're going to have any money left for expansion if all you do the first year is hire Pans to research const-4. Unless you are lucky, I don't even know how you'll have enough money for hiring a Pan a year.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

LOL..

Actually all I usually buy is pans for pangeaa... and expand with masses of maenids.

But I don't claim to be particularly good with pan either.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Pans get pretty expensive after a few. I usually get one for each fort, to build up maenads. I have had the experience of recruiting too many Pans, and they wreck your economy.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

I was asked why I think Pans are so great in end game.

Assuming you have access to at least one astral mage (lizard shaman, sorceress), give him/her a bow and script Communion Master, Power of the Spheres plus other buffs depending on opposition (like personal luck, increased magic resistance, twist fate, astral geysir etc) and Fire large monsters.

One Pan (again with some bow) scripts Sabbath Master, Summon Earthpower, Strength of Gaia (or whatever the spell is called again, the one that gives N+1 and personal regen), Hell Power, Relief, Fire large monster.

The other pans (I prefer to use four) must be able to cast their spells before either of the masters. Script Sabbath Slave and what ever is needed (for example vs SC's you want them to be slowed down -> the meager Tangle Vines is a killer when cast with very high N). Notice that on round 4 the slaves will have already +4 to Nature (and +2 to Earth), so Charm is a killer vs those SC's. If you have Thistle mace and Moonvine bracelet, the slave Pans will have N10 or 11 on round 4, and there are not many SC's that will be able to resist repeadetly a Charm cast with such Nature levels.

Basically you should have a few such "hit-squads", stealing the enemy SC's for yourself. Who needs Tartarian gates when you can grab all the tartarians you want for yourself?

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

A nice plan, Jarkko, but extremely hard to implement. Mistakes could be made at any point, especially in the mage casting order.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

True that. It takes a lot of effort to get the right astral mage go together with the right Pans for example, so that the communion master does not cast his spells before the sabbath slaves. Besides, the astral mages have so low HP they are easy to kill (at least compared with the Pans).

The best result I've ever succeeded to have was in a MP game where I succeeded to snatch formyself an Earth king, King of Banefires and an Airqueen all in the same turn. So if the stars align right, the possibilities are spectacular :)

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

At N11 you're getting a +4 penetration bonus. Seems like it would be easier to just pass out some Void Eyes to your pans than mess with communions. After your pans buff with Strength of Gaia you end up with the same penetration bonus.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Personally I like to give Pans a ring of regen and AMA as they increase the survivability by lots. Equipping a Void Eye on a non-Astral mage is in my opinion playing with fire.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Hmm.

Crone Pretend 6n5d can be awake with ok scales.
Or dormant with great scales.

Pans with +3 Magic +3 Luck +3 Grwoth - will pop out 11 research a turn and easily make con-4 by pretender awakening.

11!>360 is only 8 turns.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

I thought Hell Power + Communion lead to very nasty results for the caster?

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Doesn't it Horror Mark all the slaves? And have a chance of summoning horrors? I haven't used it enough to remember.

Probably want some of those Astral mages to be Horror Marking at the very least.

The other problem I see with that set up for casting Charm is that you don't get to the point of spamming it until the end of the script, so you're relying on the AI to keep casting it.
The astral mage isn't needed, if you're going to use Hellpower anyway. The 1 path boost from PotS is nice, as are the Astral buffs, but it is more fatigue and a weaker off path mage.
If you've set up the masters to cast last, there's no need for them to switch to bows.
I'd also suggest Reinvigoration as the last spell instead of Relief.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Doh :doh:
I actually meant Reinvigoration rather than Relief...

Reinvig resets all the fatigue gathered until that point, minus the fatigue from the spell itself. Thus if a communion master astral mage would continue casting, the fatigue could become a problem (as he will be at Astral magic +3 due to the communion and PoS the AI will attempt to cast something silly knocking the Pans senseless immediatly).

Then again, four pans casting Charm the scripted three times have a pretty decent chance to grab the SC. If not, poo will hit the fan anyway, although the AI seems to be pretty keen on casting Charm with high-nature mages.

Hellpower has a chance to summon a horror, yes. Which was why I suggested the Astral mage to cast astral geysir (as it puts a two-point horror mark on the targets -> spawning horrors will go for the highest horror mark).

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Hellpower will astral mark all the mages involved in a communion. And I think you will need several castings of horror mark to exceed the marking from hellpower.

Personally, if it was just a small number of SC's I'd gamble on the charm working and ending combat before the horrors show.

OR

What can be fun is Ritual of returning bringing your entire communion back - but leaving berserk maenids...

And pray the horrors show...

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

Astral geysir does a two point horror mark (if the geysir just hits), and it seems to be more than enough to draw the horrors. At least I've had an Astral geysir cast on my pretender while the opponent had a hellpower communion going, and the first horror that spawned went straight for my pretender. So did the next two too who spawned, and although the pretender survived the fight, he didn't survive the doom horror that came for a visit afterwards :(

It's been well over a year since I used the hellpowered communion, but I don't seem to remember the hellpowered pans getting horror marks, just the chance to spawn horrors. Although the horrors spawn near to the hellpowered mages, and if there is no horror marked toons on the field, they seem to attack the closest thing (which then immediatly gets a horror mark, unless croaking of the first hit). Need to test in SP if my memory is failing that bad (wouldn't be the too suprising if that was the case).

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

It does horror mark as well.

Re: Some thoughts on EA Pangaea with CBM
 

See, my memory *is* getting worse. I *knew* there would be consequences when one lives more than four decades :hurt: