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Baalz August 23rd, 2009 11:53 AM

MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
There are several guides already written about MA Abysia, but none really capture my feel for the nation. I’ve heard several people lament Abysia as being weak, inflexible, slow, and easy to counter with poor magic diversity. I think this is because they have obvious blunt force at their disposal which leads people to conclude that’s how you should play them. The problem with this, of course, is that if it’s obvious to you it’s also obvious to your opponent leading to a serious strategic disadvantage. My advice is don’t do that. I find Abysia to be a very versatile and flexible nation with a strong presence through all the stages of the game, you just have to be prepared to plan around their inherent weaknesses.

As I mentioned there are several other guides written, and some fairly obvious things Abysia has going for it. I’m also borrowing some strategies I’ve seen others deploy effectively so take this guide as how I put it all together. I do want to give a special nod to WingedDog though as writing this guide was inspired by me happening to be both playing as and against Abysia in two separate games and he brought a couple new ideas to my attention by applying them to my face. I don’t want to spend time rehashing what everyone already knows – Aby’s got great heavy infantry and straightforward evocations. For me though, this is not what defines the nation, and is mostly a niche application useful to pull out when your opponent demonstrates deployments which need reminding you’ve got that capability. Mostly though, any threat which can even get through your PD is probably not something you want to invest in expensive, slow and non-maneuverable heavy infantry to fight.

Aby’s infantry and fire mages do really shine in the early parts of the game though. I tend to prefer the humanbred for most early applications. They’re tough enough with a tower shield and 9 protection. You can get two of them for the price of Abysian infantry, and they’ve got a map move of 2 with a choice of axe or spear. The map move of two is absolutely critical, it means your armies have average mobility instead of slow. Most significant enemy armies are going to be moving at 2, so you’re at no strategic disadvantage. Abysian infantry are specialists, *not* your goto default troops. Once you make this mental shift Abysia starts feeling a whole lot more flexible. As you’d expect, Abysian light infantry feel pretty heavy by light infantry standards and their fire immunity dovetails perfectly with your very reasonably priced F2 mages who drop fireballs early on and eventually become very cost effective heavy artillery mages with falling fires, prison of fire, incinerate and blindness (who needs astral to take out fire immune SCs?).

Salamanders are an expensive glass cannon, but give you a great way to counter both high defense stuff like water blessed Vans and Shadow Vestials and high protection/hp stuff - 20 AP damage is pretty significant even to giants. Salamanders are both expensive and fragile, so you might want to consider body ethereal/luck buffs on small number of them, and they start looking pretty wicked indeed once you can drop marble warriors on them. Slayers have the unfortunate drawback of most assassins, they compete with mages for recruitment. Still, they are above averagely strong, so they do occasionally have a use.

Rounding out your recruit anywhere options is the Anathemant Dragon who’s nice, but a bit expensive. For most applications you’ll want to stick to the much more affordable Anathemant Salamander, but there are a couple of times it’s very nice to have a Dragon. First off, he’s a H3 priest so he gives you a good early answer to tough, fire immune things (like enemy pretenders). Secondly, the extra level of fire magic does give easier access to a couple nice spells like Flame Storm. Finally, he’s an H3 priest on a nation who can blood sacrifice. Sitting on a temple with a jade dagger this generates 11 temple checks. 11! Just think about it, with 3 of these guys blood sacrificing you’re pushing your dominion at a rate comparable to most end game large empires…and end game you’ve got a lot more than 3. If you take a high dominion score it can be very difficult for neighbors with an average one to stave off dominion death and even if they do they’re going to have your dominion all over their territory with that nice heat-3 push. Where do the daggers come from? Easy enough to empower a N1 indie mage in blood, and well worth it for the jade daggers alone. As long as you did that anyway, might as well keep rain of toads in mind to anonymously stack on top of the income hit you’re already applying with your dom push. As the game progresses raging hearts and volcanic eruption give you some more options on this angle and a good use for your fire gems after you’re saturated with lanterns.

Dominion pushing should be one of Abysia’s core strategies, it’s not hard at all to knock a serious amount out of your neighbor’s incomes. Say you’re changing your neighbor from neutral temperature and Order-3 (a very common scenario), he’s down 27% from the loss of Order and another 15% from the temp shift. He’s also lost the benefit from growth, production & luck if he’s got it along with the hit from any negative scales you took, so it’s not unlikely at all that he’s taking a 50% income hit in the provinces with your scales. This is before you consider how much gold he’s pumping into temples he doesn’t otherwise need to try and keep it from going further. The benefits if you should go to war are large as well, the 2 shift in morale (from +1 to -1) can be quite significant to PD, making it much more economical to raid. This is especially true if you utilize fear…such as, say horrors, scorpion men and demon knights. But I get ahead of myself, the point is to take a high dominion score and plan on aggressively pushing it.

One side note, don’t neglect the advantage of prophetizing a big guy to take advantage of your strong everywhere dominion if you stick regen on him (better if he has it innate). Even a troll king prophet can be pretty wicked early on in a dominion of 10, with 150 hitpoints and regenerating 20+ per turn…or 60+ with a ring of regen and hydra skin armor. Stack it with MR boosters and you can get to be practically unkillable to even most SC counters and a great lightning rod to catch enemy attacks. When you pull the same thing with father illearth or a demon lord that *start* at 150 hitpoints and pop blood vengeance at the beginning of fights….ah, that’s a fun show.

Now your early game is going to be pretty straightforward, but you’re very rapidly going to approach a point where you’re contending against a real opponent and straightforward isn’t going to cut it. Your options need some ramp up time, so you’ve got to start heading for them as soon as the game starts. Fortunately, your very early expansion doesn’t need any critical research done, so I like heading straight for construction. You’ll want to stick sanguine rods on them once you can get them to be sure, but warlocks make wicked bloodhunters with no boost at all. I’m gonna get more into warlocks in a bit, but for now lets just use them from the very beginning to get your blood slaves rolling in well before you get to sanguine rods.

Dragar wrote an Abysian guide centered around soul contracts, and I have to agree that soul contract generated demons are in my mind one of Abysia’s core troops. They are a big part of the reason why I chuckle a bit when people complain that Abysia is slow and inflexible. Just like LA Ulm essentially requires a pretender to summon the vampires who define the nation I feel Abysia requires a pretender who can forge the item which defines much of your early/mid game power. You can eventually have warlocks kitted to forge them, but you really have to start cranking them out by the end of year one and the only way that’s possible is with a pretender.

I’d like to preemptively address an objection which I’m sure will come up. Soul contracts are one of those items that very few people use, they’re so expensive you can summon 22 devils for the cost of each soul contract so they take forever to “pay themselves off”. This is not an entirely unreasonable way to look at it, but I contend that’s not the whole picture. You know why nobody actually does summon devils that way? Because there is another cost there that’s being glossed over, the mage-turns used and from that angle they exponentially pay for themselves. Particularly if you’re talking about cap only mages, how valuable is it to have a mage doing something else? How valuable to have 12 mages doing something else after a year of forgings? How does this comparison sit if the 12 mages are bloodhunting and bringing in more blood slaves than a contract costs? Its impossible to really compare how it “pays itself off” when comparing the apples to oranges of mage turns vs blood slaves, but the other way to look at it is there’s just no way to get a significant number of demons nearly as early any other way because of the limitation of available warlocks. Additionally, it allows you to gain the advantage of flying devils while skipping blood research for a good long while and concentrate on the other urgent stuff you potentially need. With the “alternative” not really being an option the question really is, is it worth it? My own personal opinion is that it’s the lynchpin in transforming early Abysia from a predictable slow force into a dynamic, heavy raiding multi vector threat while also steadily building up to be a significant contribution to end game force as well. Having 50 demons flying out of your capital every other turn at the point you’ve got darkness, army of lead, blood lust and gift of health up is so far from trivial words escape me….and at that point you’re getting them for free while using your blood slaves for the other uses. IMO it transforms the way the nation plays. If you can come up with a more cost effective way to do that in the same time frame I’m all ears.

With B3/4 warlocks blood hunting you should be able to very rapidly generate enough slaves to pop out a soul contract every other turn, and before too long one every turn. Let the devils just build up for a little bit, they’re much better when you have critical mass of about 15 – most PD fighting out of dominion will disintegrate in the first round. Doesn’t take long before you’re able to send out a group of about that many every other turn somewhere in year two.

At this point you’ve got a fair number of very maneuverable flying squads led by a demonbred to back up the straightforward hammer of your heavy infantry and a short trip for the low hanging fruit up whichever tree makes the most sense: evocation (fireball) alteration (Body ethereal, luck) thaum (prison of fire, mind burn, teleport, paralyze) blood (blood lust, hellfire, agony). Depending on how your neighbors are doing you should be able to take your first scalp here, combining a dominion push with heavy flying raiding and the straightforward obvious part of Abysia which is kinda hard to counter at this point (heavy dudes and big flaming explosions).

As I implied above, your research goals are going to vary a good bit depending on what you expect to face, but thaum-2 should be an early target so you can start aggressively fire site searching. Why? Because after you take care of any pressing research you need for the war front you’re gonna be climbing straight up to constr-6 for three critical items, one of which is the lightless lantern. Other than a steady stream of soul contracts every fire gem you can scrape up is gonna go right into lanterns giving you a fairly substantial research push which you’ll need because none of your cap only mages are ever going to do any research. Demonbred are going straight to the fights and warlocks with nothing more pressing to do are bloodhunting. I’ll get to the third critical item in a minute, but the second critical item is boots of youth.

I haven’t spoken much about Warlocks yet, but that’s because they’re one of my favorite mages from any nation and I’ve got a lot to say. You will need to recruit a demonbred every now and then for strategic maneuverability, but every turn you should think long and hard if you’re considering not getting a Warlock. These guys are the heart of your nation and you never nearly have enough. They are, however practically so old they start with disease, and considering how slowly you amass them and how many things you need them for, going through winter without boots of youth is a sphincter clenching prospect. Year one winter isn’t so bad because you just don’t have that many warlocks yet. Year two is pretty painful, no doubt about it. Even if you manage to get to constr-6 you’re gonna have a hard time outfitting all your warlocks while pumping out soul contracts. Console yourself that it’s really a one time thing though, by year three winter you darn well better have boots of youth on every warlock you’ve got. You can take them off when it’s not winter if you want to stick earth boots or whatever on them, though the 2 reinvig is a nice little bonus if you leave them on.

The 3rd critical construction item segues into my discussion of warlocks and is actually not at constr-6, but you pick it up along the way at constr-4. Blood stones baby! The earlier you start pumping these things out the more they’re gonna benefit you. You should average 2-3 warlocks who can forge them per year, so if you start early it’s not that hard to get up to a 100+ E income before you hit the end game with thousands you’ve spent/hoarded by that point. That income makes earthblood deepwell a tempting target as long as you’re there, leading to one of the better gem incomes in the game compounding a strong blood economy.

Your E random warlocks also give you a very nice option for troop diversity. You’ll probably be limited by your existing E for blood stone forging initially (particularly as you’re trying to squeeze out hammers as well), when you are you’ll want to use your E warlocks to summon some demon knights. The low level version of this spell is very mage intensive only summoning one per turn, but it doesn’t take very many to be quite effective. A dozen of these guys make a very capable support squad for your army, and with a few buffs are a force to be reckoned with in their own right due to their fear aura. Finally, your E warlocks give you much stronger E access than they imply with that unsupposing E1. With copious blood stones, they’re all actually at E2. Use that solid E income to spread earth boots around, so they’re actually E3. They’re also astral mages, so after summoning earthpower (E4) they can cast power of the spheres (or forge themselves crystal shields) to make E5. They also can teleport, so as long as you pushed up for an early constr-6 go one more and you’re looking at weapons of sharpness being dropped in any battle you care about, stacked of course with rush of strength eventually….which works very nice indeed on your troops with two handed weapons. You can also do fun stuff like iron bane (works great with devils), gifts from heaven (works great on stuff that *kills* devils), curse of stones (works great if you can manage to dig up any units which radiate fatigue causing heat) and earthquake (works great on a teleporting unit, with say marble armor and a ritual of returning).

Your blood random warlocks have a whopping B4, which means they can crank out B boosters with no empowering and easily cast such classics as hoard from hell, infernal disease, and bloodletting, along with the bigger blood summons from ritual of the five gates to Heliophagus. Ritual of the five gates is particularly nice as it not only gives you more demon knights to supplement what your E warlocks are summoning, it also gives you a handful of lightning and cold artillery…which nobody expects from Abysia and tends to throw the stylishly fire immune SC/thug for a loop. The devil and fiend you get are shipped right out with your regular devil flying squads so you get good use out of everything. Finally, B4 warlocks make one of the best blood hunters in the game. With a couple boosters (forged for other uses but idle this turn) and a sanguine rod these guys can double the income compared to a rod equipped B1 bloodhunter while not generating much more unrest. A very efficient use of your blood hunting provinces.

Astral warlocks give you a host of flexibility. They can teleport with no astral cap, which can be great early on if you need to jump in and smack around some early elephants. With a simple cap though they can really transform that theoretically nice Abysian heavy infantry into very useful troops via gateway. Go on the offense with your fast demons/devils and light infantry, use your demonbred to put up a lab and now those guys who were previously too slow to make it to the fight hold and siege stuff while the demonbred puts up a temple and starts blood sacrificing. With weapons of sharpness easily available Abysian heavy infantry is a potent threat all the way through end game, and their heat aura combined with heat from a strong dominion push and inner furnace tends to make them dominate other elite line troops at anywhere near a fair fight. Astral also gives you a good entry into very effective horror spam. I’ve elaborated on sending horrors in some other guides, I wanted to talk here about calling horrors which all of your warlocks can do well.

Calling horrors takes a bit of finesse. Much like using communions, if you don’t put the proper thought and planning in it has a very high chance of ending in disaster. I want to lead by cautioning against a mistake I’ve seen made time and time again – your mages casting horror mark will very likely target horrors if they’re summoned first! You need to do whatever horror marking you want done before the first horror is summoned. If you want to integrate horrors into your strategy it’s a good idea to sprinkle horror marks around the enemy forces just in general so you can drop first turn horrors when you want to. Have a warlock or two (or better yet some cheap indie mages) spam horror mark from behind the PD in fights you were gonna lose anyway as the enemy advances, just on general principal. Also consider using the accursed shield for thugs (it’s a great shield anyway).

There are a couple effective ways to use horrors in combat assuming your opponent has horror marks sprinkled around his troops. Option one is to drop a horror periodically as a lightning rod for whatever stuff your opponent was gonna be casting at you. That big nasty beast jumping right into the middle of their troops is going to have a very high priority attached to it’s targeting and is tough enough to soak up several hits (depending on what’s being cast obviously). Bonus: if it’s being hit by stuff that’s not precision 100 there’s a good chance of friendly fire damage, and it’s not altogether unlikely that combined with the very strong fear aura some enemy squads will route even in a large army. Option 2 is to summon as many horrors as you can, then bugger the hell out of there with the hope that the cumulative fear effect will route the enemy troops, usually combined with a strategy to take all the retreat routes away. This works very well with blood rain, though you’ve got to obviously use a bit of thought as to when to retreat the caster (think immortals for this role…but I get ahead of myself). This can be an extremely effective tactic for killing otherwise very tough armies. Who cares if those 500 heavy cavalry are buffed with army of gold and fog warriors…they all just retreated to their death with practically no casualties. Option 3 for deploying horrors is one that Abysia is perhaps uniquely suited to – using the horrors then killing them off once they’re done with the enemy. Why? Because horrors have no elemental immunity, so if some of them finish with enemy targets then turn and fly right into your formation of heat radiating Abysian infantry they’ll almost immediately pass out. Placing troops appropriately for this can take a little bit of practice, but the “guard commander” order is an effective way to keep troops clumped together and you’ll want to prep your troops with some sermons of courage. Obviously horrors are a bit of a gamble, but they bring too much potential power for their cost to be ignored.

The three types of warlocks I’ve mentioned so far give you a nice triple play option as well. Doom, then bloodletting, then earthquake, all dropped in on teleports with ritual of returning is a wonderful way to lead off a fight with the rest of your troops arriving in the regular movement phase. Throw in a horror and you’ll probably even manage to get the enemy to burn through the gems he was planning to use on the upcoming fight. Fire warlocks are not as straightforwardly useful as the other three, but they do allow you to turn that triple play into a grand slam (to…uh reverse the metaphor), add infernal prison to the above and you’ll probably be able to hear your opponent howl regardless of how far apart you are in the real world.

Now, unfortunately one if the big limitations Abysia has is that all this wonderfulness is cap only. It starts chafing real fast all the stuff you want to do with your warlocks, combined with the fact you want a few demonbred, combined with the fact that you need gobs of bloodhunters. The whole game you’re going to be making tough decisions about how to allocate your limited warlocks, I find it’s a very good idea to stick labs where your warlocks are bloodhunting so that you can leave most of them bloodhunting while pulling them for lab duty as needed. Can’t emphasize how nice it is to be able to with no notice spam a dozen horror attacks, a handful of disease demons, a few mind hunts and a partridge in a pear tree. Let’s also consider what else we can do to mitigate warlock shortage. With a strong dominion that we’re pushing all over the place I’m thinking immortals, and specifically vampire lords nicely fill in this hole.

They fly and command demons/undead, and can cast blood lust, thus almost completely removing the need to recruit demonbred. Even better, they can drop darkness (with a staff), greatly amplifying the effectiveness of the demons and even the 50% darkvision Abysian infantry. They’re immortal – even into enemy territory if we’re pushing our dominion so strongly. They also give us a strong entry into death magic and another vector to gain solid bloodhunters, and can set up covens of vampires- which are very difficult to counter when you’re geared up to kill off flaming infantry and are perpetually in enemy dominion. All in all, a very solid addition to the Abysian lineup with just a little bit of work.

You can go a couple ways with this (blood fountain is one good choice), but I’m thinking along the lines of a vampire queen with 2F 3D 6B. Mostly cranking out soul contracts at first, creates a couple vamp lords when they’re available then sticks on marble armor, pops soul vortex, phoenix pyre and blood vengeance then goes to town with her life draining attack & soul vortex reinvigorating her when she phoenix pyres - being out a scant 7E (which are flowing like water) if she bites it. She can also do fun stuff like hell power then bone grinding (vampires make great bodyguards vs horrors with the added bonus that they rack up the horror marks so draw the horror attacks. Remember that if you decide to put up Astral Corruption). An altogether unpleasant prospect for your enemy to contemplate throughout the whole game. Squeezing in E2 is an expensive prospect, but it does get you a much easier entry into blood stones and almost eliminate the need to stick any gear on her at all. Also keep in mind having a high dominion stealthy pretender can be exactly what you need to take an early dominion kill – or just push your dominion somewhere you wanted her to attack. In CB you can squeeze in 2F 2E 4D 6B with a dominion of 8 in an awake vamp queen with sloth-1, heat-3, misfortune-2 & magic-1, though you can adjust that to your own taste or go with a blood fountain and pretty good scales.

Baalz August 23rd, 2009 11:53 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Another thing you might want to consider in light of your strong dominion pushed up into enemy territory is globals which benefit from a strong dominion. Purgatory and Looming Hell are obvious choices (if appropriate), but Wrath of God and Gift of Health (50+ hp devils and sweet, sweet relief from old age) are also generally in reach with boosters and indie mages and can give an extra vector your opponent needs to worry about once they’ve got that whole fire immune thing down. If you manage to swing it Dark Skies amplifies the effectiveness of horrors to such a degree that there’s practically no PD that stands a chance where you’ve pushed your dominion, no matter how much money is dumped into it. Finally, empowering a vamp lord into air using gems you didn’t have much other use for gives you wailing winds (with cloud trapeze) with immortalness protecting that investment. With a little bit of work you can eventually leverage this into robes of the magi & infernal tempest so it’s a good long term goal as well.

Scorpion men are fun little units which fit very well into your fear generating strategy here. Their ranged attack is essentially the “terror” spell only with a range of 40 along with a disease bow which seems to be pretty effective at handing out diseases even to shielded SCs, and they radiate fear as well as well as being fairly tough in their own right. What a great way to spend an amazing earth income! You’ll probably luck into a couple warlocks with the paths to cast this and with solid earth and fire site searching there’s a good chance you’ll land some E/F indie mages who can crank them out. As a final option, you *do* have an obscene earth income, so consider empowering a guy or two to crank them out. As you’ve pulled into late game you’ve upgraded to infernal crusade so swarms of demon knights with supporting scorpion men fighting under blood rain with devils/vampires/horrors flying in to conquer escape routes sounds like my idea of fun, and it works even if you’re fighting guys buffed with army of lead/mistform/will of the fates/anti magic/mass regen….and even if your opponent gets fed up and casts growing fury. The combined fear stacked up along with the range on the scorpion men’s fear attack will run everybody but the front row off before they ever get hit to trigger the berzerking. Your overlapping fear stacks immediately overwhelm anything with less than 30 morale, and 30 morale SCs who think they can handle it have their arses sent to hell. It’s almost always going to be overkill, but you can also summon a couple horrors to further push the fear past the front ranks if it makes sense. Really the only thing that can even try to fight is swarms of mindless units, and I can’t really think of many of those that demon knights with weapons of sharpness + bloodlust can’t carve through almost as fast as they can walk up. I pity the fool who tries to do something silly like march 5000 undead at late game Abysia, did I mention demon knights and scorpion men are 100% fire immune? Phoenix power then flame storm is available from every one of your recruit everywhere Anthemant Dragons with no boosters at all for just 2 fire gems – which starts being a lot more effective when you haven’t been conditioning your opponent to expect heavy fire magic every fight. If something like mechanical men are trying to put up a fight drop darkness and see how often they can hit those demon knights who start with a 17 defense and rack up stars scary fast. Use that A empowered vamp lord and drop mist with the darkness and then safely pantomime the broad side of a barn to the enemy mages.

A handful of ice demons and quite a few storm demons (courtesy of your A vamp lord) keeps any fire immune opponents in check and you’ve got swarms of vamps doing kamikaze runs under darkness and army of lead while you’re pushing your dominion straight down everyone’s throat. Infernal prison and life for a life teleporting guys are just itching to pop any SCs that think they’re cute. Your demon knight/scorpion man domination squads are gatewaying to the four corners and it’s almost impossible to find anyone who will even try to fight them. You’re swimming in bloodstones Scrooge McDuck style blasting earth attacks (troll kings), disease demons (warlocks/vamp lords), manifestations (vamp lords), & mind hunts (warlocks) to clear out whatever was hoping to help the poor PD keep the horrors from running them off – you won’t have too much trouble capitalizing on making people run away nor popping a cap in whoever thought they were going to be casting undead mastery on your vamps. If you’ve had rough luck and don’t have a strong astral income, 50 E gems is a low bar for you and you’ve added regular astral travel to the nightmare that your opponent is having. Your recruitable troops are fighting under heat from hell & inner furnace not to mention weapons of sharpness & rush of strength – they dominate most other line troops, even heavily buffed ones. You’ve got an immortal pretender who can drop anything from infernal prison to bloodletting to undead mastery to bone grinding to just wading in and kicking everybody’s arse by hand with a dominion push that lets her go just about anywhere.

Does this sound like a nation that is weak, inflexible, slow, and easy to counter with poor magic diversity?

Trumanator August 23rd, 2009 12:58 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Once again, an excellent guide! Just one thing I think might be good to consider in future guides though, is the trend towards banning gem gens. 2 out of the 4 games I'm signed up for have banned them, and the trend seems to be spreading, particularly with vet/non-noob games.

Baalz August 23rd, 2009 01:22 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Yeah, I'm actually a fan of the trend, though I think losing the blood stone as a booster is a bit of a unintended nerf. Bloodstones are a huge benefit but at the end of the day a side strategy and you can do pretty much everything mentioned here without them...though you probably won't be spamming earth attacks & alchemizing for astral travel. :)

I also wanted to mention a suggestion from QM to mitigate old age losses before you can get boots of youth. Nab a N1 indie mage and have him cast heal/healing touch on your diseased guys every so often. If there's no convenient indies to trigger a fight you can send a horror at yourself and hold it still with bonds of fire while you do the healing.

TheDemon August 23rd, 2009 01:46 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
I want to mention that pretty much everything in this guide works for LA Abysia as well. Plus the recruit-anywhere bloodhunters solve your warlock shortage. The exception being that you don't have Demonbred leaders for your Devils. Therefore for LA Abysia I like to put a little air magic on my pretender, do some searching and forge Winged Shoes when you need them. If you decide on a rainbow, you can even take A4 B5 and with the right boosters that will be able to forge Robe of the Magi, which solves many path bootstrapping problems.

Alpine Joe August 23rd, 2009 03:06 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Horde from hell demon leaders can lead LA abysia's demons. I also find this strat works better in LA due to recruit-everywhere bloodhunters, although slaves are more limited.

Dragar August 23rd, 2009 07:50 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Nice strat Baalz, the main challenge I see to a lot of the strategies mentioned is managing the blood levels required while staying competitive with research and having sufficient income. Particularly with the vampire queen and poor scales, if you are blood hunting heavily for soul contracts early my experience is that research will struggle and you won't have income for more than capital troops. If you don't get to lightless lanterns quickly enough you will be way behind in research

As it is the chance of getting globals up is very light, by the time you have the research and/or gems for anything useful you normally have to dispel or superimpose your global. Gift of health in particular is normally up way before you have Ench 5 and 50 nature gems spare - noting that nature items (regen, reinvig and jade knives) are very valuable for your mages.

Edi August 24th, 2009 06:29 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
I love seeing a Baalz guide for one of my favorite nations. Thank you! :D

fantasma August 24th, 2009 06:48 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
You center many strategies around capital only commanders, so if I'm against you, the topmost priority would be to shut down capital recruitment. What are the best answers to prevent that or to live without the capital?

I'd bet devils make good patrollers, but your regular troops not so much so.

Sombre August 24th, 2009 07:13 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
I too am concerned about getting a blood economy going, given the reliance on cap only mages. I find the idea of using a B4 guy with boosters to blood hunt a bit scary too. It seems so much less efficient than other blood nations like LA marig, EA/LA Mictlan etc.

ano August 24th, 2009 07:26 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Did anyone ever try a demonbred/fire elemental/infantry/salamander rush? I'd say it is one of the hardest to counter rushes in the game because of mobility and ability to summon elems whenever you need them and because any PD that doesn't have archers has absolutely no chance against them.
Also, elems are your best defense early on that noone (when combined with slamanders) will be able to pass through.
So, depending on overall situation, I would research conj first.
Also, I totally agree that humanbred are the most useful Aby unit and, combined with indy infantry should be used early on for the most tasks.
But what I disagree with is no magic diversity but that's probably a matter of personal preference. I'd rather start forging contracts later (not much because at const 4 warlocks easily make 2 boosters) but take something that allowed me better magic/forging/site searching versatility. And nature is a must for saving those precious diseased warlocks you don't want to lose.

ano August 24th, 2009 07:29 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Sombre
Yes, it is not very efficient but remember that in MA there're nearly no blood nations and Aby is probably the best of them (in terms of bloodhunting). As some test showed, B3 mages don't really need a rod to hunt effectively and though they're capital only you will definitely have a good slave income. Not terrific but solid and stable.

ano August 24th, 2009 07:42 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Here's probably what I'd take (not exactly, of course, because it requires testing):
Quote:

Abysia, Middle Era
Master Lich (Body 180, 5 hits)
Magic: Air 4 Water 3 Death 5 Nature 4
Dominion 7
Scales: Order 3 Productivity 1 Heat 3 Misfortune 2 Magic 3
Dormant
Versatile immortal archmage that will find most sites you can't find and forge most things you can't forge. Thistle maces on indy shamans that you need a lot will allow to cast Haruspex. OTOH, good scales and Magic 3 turns your salamanders into good researchers and makes indy tribe shamans very effective in that.
Regular archmage is also an option, of course.

Taking an awake pretender means spending 150 design points. I understand when they are invested into heavy expansion or some strategic advantage but I don't understand spending 150 points on some particular strategy (that may or may not work well - remember Highlander game?) while sacrificing most other things. That's my vision.

ano August 24th, 2009 08:09 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Forgot an important detail about the rush I described above. Fire Drakes are important part of it, of course. And in CBM they're cheaper so even more usable. The idea is fast conj researching and sending an army of about 4-5 demonbreds with gems, infantry, possibly salamanders and 4-5 fire drakes. This is extremely hard to stop for a regular nation by the end of year one, believe me. One possible counter is "fire fliers" though

Baalz August 24th, 2009 10:08 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Yes, your blood income is going to be more modest than one of the real blood powerhouses. You've got an awake vamp queen with B6 to help you get off the floor, and later on vamp lords, helophagi and demon lords are going to give you a handful more blood hunters when they're not doing other stuff, but by and large you'll be limited to less than one warlock a turn to bloodhunt and you're not going to be able to use all of them for blood hunting. That's OK though because not only do warlocks make excellent bloodhunters you don't need nearly the same amount of blood slaves as one of the nations who are really reliant on dumping large amounts of slaves every turn into summons. Lets take a look at some numbers.

Your vamp queen is going to have limited usefulness helping with early expansion before you have any buffs researched so its a good idea to have her help with some blood hunting. Lets say that in year one you manage to task 6 warlocks with bloodhunting. 6 warlocks over 3 provinces with a vamp queen supplementing will, lets say conservatively pull about 35 blood slaves per turn starting turn 6 (it'll start off slower, but the vamp queen will be doing more blood hunting as well). This is just ballpark numbers, but 30 bloodslaves per turn puts you at 450 blood slaves over the next 15 turns hitting my benchmark of 7 soul contracts inside year 2 with some slaves left over for blood sacrificing. I think this is a fairly reasonable minimum, its not hard to see how you could do better if you focused on bloodhunting and had reasonable luck.

If you manage to add another 6 bloodhunters in year two this will put you at 70 slaves per turn, roughly hitting my target of cranking out a soul contract every turn. Take a couple turns off of soul contracts in year 3 to pop out a bunch of boots of youth, and a you shouldn't have much trouble scaring up a handful more for a few demon knights.

As your soul contracts start hitting critical mass (15-20) you'll phase them out of your assembly line with hopefully about 100 slaves per turn to play with for the other things I suggested as your vamp queen hits the front lines full time. The really nice thing is all those devils generating each turn require no upkeep and no more blood slaves so you can use your slaves for more exotic things than standard troops. You really only need to pick 1-2 per turn out of empowering, summoning arch devils, vamp lords, wide spread horror air raids, etc.

Now, you could maybe do better than this, maybe do worse but it's the right ballpark. My strategy also calls for very modest research in the early part of the game, really nothing that can't be handled almost completely by mages from secondary forts. You need constr-2 for the soul contracts, and....well, that's pretty much it aside from whatever you decide would be easy and helpful in whatever early wars you find yourself in with maybe a bit of alt research to transform your pretender into a real terror. Over year two you pick up augury and get your fire income pumping while setting up a couple more secondary castles and chugging steadily along construction research. Your gold income is modest, but so is your outlay. You're leaning heavily on your free (well, gold free) devils so most of your income goes to mages and getting castles set up. It's a slow process to get to constr-6, and you're very likely going to be in the bottom half of the research charts...but that's OK because what you have (devils & flaming infantry with fireball/prison of fire/paralyze/smite/etc.) is quite effective enough at this stage of the game.

Once you start cranking out the lightless lanterns your research will pick up a bit, and before long you'll have vamp lords and the D gems will start trickling in if you want to supplement this with skull mentors. You are generally going to be trailing a bit on research regardless, but that's totally OK because you have such awesome efficient leverage. Fire immune recruitable troops with strong fire immune free spawn with strong flying maneuverability with very good early combat spells means you can do a whole lot with not much research. As the game progresses a modest amount of force multipliers goes a long way given the troops you've got, so just dropping blood lust blood lust on some devils is more than enough to contend with most nations dropping much more advanced buffs. You don't need to blaze up the conjuration/blood research tree fast to get good summons - you've got them popping out your capital for free each turn early in year one. To be sure, research is important, but you can be extremely competitive against somebody who is leading you in research by a significant amount.

Baalz August 24th, 2009 10:20 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fantasma (Post 706900)
You center many strategies around capital only commanders, so if I'm against you, the topmost priority would be to shut down capital recruitment. What are the best answers to prevent that or to live without the capital?

I'd bet devils make good patrollers, but your regular troops not so much so.

Heh, ask me a hard one! Devils make *excellent* patrollers, there is absolutely 0 chance that spies will cause you any long term problems. You've also got easy access to one of the best domes which unlike others you can actually use - dome of corruption. Your warlocks are mostly out of your capital blood hunting anyway and you can stick vamp bodyguards on anybody still hanging out there so the down side of the dome is essentially negated. That means you've got a dome powered by cheap blood slaves which blocks 75% of spells while driving the caster insane. Its possible that you might get caught with your pants down but nobody is going to be spamming unrest causing spells into that dome once you put it up so again I can't imagine how you'd have a long term problem.

Baalz August 24th, 2009 10:44 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Oh another point I wanted to reiterate is the economic impact of your dominion push. If you manage to push your dominion into 2/5ths of the enemy territory and it drops their income there by 50%, then that's equivalent to a 20% income drop over their whole nation. That's the equivalent of dropping their entire nation from order-3 to neutral scales. I also pity the poor guy if he took luck scales to as close to half his events are going to be under your misfortune scales. I wouldn't be so sure that you're operating at that much of an economic disadvantage.

Keep in mind that in some ways this is even worse to apply to somebody *after* the beginning of the game once their upkeep has been run up. It hits their marginal income which can be fairly slim...

chrispedersen August 24th, 2009 12:10 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Baalz
I find the tactics to shoot for generally pretty good. But what I find unrealistic is your expectations of what can be accomplished. Ie., what is realistic with the race.

I'd like to suggest that for future guides you spreadsheet out the first 2 years (at least). Figure the odds of expanding a territory - show what blood income you get. Show the consumption for blood slaves due to construction; mage actions.

I think this would make your guides more useful.

When you read your guides - it is easy to get the opinion that *every* nation is the best thing since sliced bread. Clearly not so.

Despite a very good guide - how would you rate (in general strength) MA abysia vs Shinuyama. Vs. EA-Niefle, vs Ashdod?

Baalz August 24th, 2009 01:16 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
That’s silly Chris. If you look back at my guides there are several
where people question the feasibleness of my (deliberately fuzzy on
hard details) opening where I come back and give a very concrete,
numbers based example demonstrating it. Furthermore, most of my
guides are more or less outlining the actual results I got in a MP
game, or at a bare minimum stuff reliably repeatable against the AI.
If I’m able to pull it off when others don’t see how it can work this
seems like a good place to write a guide. Is it going to play out
smoothly every time? Of course not – some times you just can’t find
suitable provinces to blood hunt, sometimes Bogus sieges your capital,
sometimes every one of your warlocks gets diseased at the end of year
one, sometimes you stumble on indie mages that blast your first
expansion party with orb lightning, and sometimes your neighbor comes
in with a rush you have difficulty dealing with. On the other hand
sometimes your neighbor is fighting off his other neighbor giving you
easy pickings while you find mount chaining and two sage sites while
your other neighbor took an imprisoned pretender with a low dominion
score. My guides are fairly fuzzy to give you an idea of where you
want to generally be heading, not a spreadsheet showing how many
provinces/blood slaves you should have on a given turn. At the end of
the day is it really a deal breaker if it’s turn 25 before you manage
to get 7 soul contracts rather than turn 20? Maybe you’ve instead
managed to make an early dom kill by sneaking your vamp queen into
their cap and blood sacrificing more aggressively? You have to play
the game as it comes, roll with the punches and take the opportunities
that show up.

LumenPlacidum August 24th, 2009 02:25 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Personally, I find that the feel of each nation being the "best thing since sliced bread" is a large part of the charm and appeal of the guides. Far better to have a general outline I can aspire toward (if the guide is unrealistic, then I'll keep changing and altering things to get closer to the goal, as opposed to being satisfied by being up to par) and that I'll enjoy reading than not.

Also, when I saw the strange formatting of your last post, I was really hoping for a rebuttal in iambic pentameter or as a limerick. That might be fun for your next thing ;)

chrispedersen August 24th, 2009 02:34 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
The fact that the feasibility has *often* been questioned supports my contention, wouldn't you say?

Certainly you can say have no desire to do as I suggested.
That doesn't make the suggestion 'silly'.

Frankly, your guide says 'push dominion', blood hunt, construct items -win.

That is a bit fuzzy, and gives no clear path to critique either the strategy, or the strength of the nation compared to others. When do you expect to push dominion. When do you expect to have finished your second contract.. your third. How will you propel research and blood hunting at the same time?

For example: I find a general goal for year 1, for an average nation to be 15 territories.

Would you expect MA-Abysia to hit that? Why is or isn't that a relevent number.

vfb August 24th, 2009 03:19 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
15 is easy for MA Aby, you've got a great starting army which can take one territory per year without losses against most indies. Just add a few humanbred on turn 1 to start. I'm sure you can manage to hire an army to take an additional 4 provinces in the first year.

Raiel August 24th, 2009 05:55 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 706973)
The fact that the feasibility has *often* been questioned supports my contention, wouldn't you say?

If you start with the assumption that those contesting feasibility are as knowledgable/skilled/insightful as the author of the guides, then yes. I'm too new to MP to be qualified to make a judgement on this.

Interesting guide, Baalz. Thanks for posting it.

chrispedersen August 24th, 2009 06:20 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vfb (Post 706982)
15 is easy for MA Aby, you've got a great starting army which can take one territory per year without losses against most indies. Just add a few humanbred on turn 1 to start. I'm sure you can manage to hire an army to take an additional 4 provinces in the first year.

I agree, vfb. I'm just trying to suggest that milestones /specifics would make the various guides more useful.

For example - Baalz made a good guide for marverni; a good one for LA Atlantis.

Each guide helps you get the most out of each nation - but there are no ways to objectively compare the nations (or the validity of the strategies).

For example - saying that you can take 4 territories with your start aby. army. And recruit a second army, by turn 4, 3rd army turn 8, and take a total of 15 territories by the end of year one is MUCH more useful than saying "you have a strong starting army able to take out indies no problem".

Dragar August 24th, 2009 11:29 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
As an aside, something I've learnt is not to rely too heavily on the devils. They rock as raiders, as surprise armies and as part of your army, but know they're coming and a storm knocks you dead. Storm and rain are abysia's killers really

I played with my similar strat in Beyond recently, had a poor start but was having fun in a 1 on 1 with pangeaa. The game leader pythium decided to attack me, and i quickly started shedding provinces. A devil army managed to annihilate an army of 3 SCs, inlcuding his pretender, and nabbed a heap of artifacts.

After that though I kept meeting storm everywhere, and they got chewed up - devils work by flying in large numbers to hit with 2 attacks, coupled with blood lust and ideally blood rain. Anything else they are too vulnerable with

Btw Baalz, I have to challenge your view of bottom-half research - in my experience when pursuing the blood heavily early abysia are bottom of the pile research altogether.

Note that their starting troops are decent for indie expansion, but recruiting more is slow and cavalry/elephants chew you up, so I generally find it hard to exceed moderate expansion. I have seen others do it though so it's something i need to get better at, it makes a huge difference if you can be size competitive and be able to pull ina lot of blood while still having cash to get your research going

vfb August 25th, 2009 12:03 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Hey! Pythium is not the game leader, it's Machaka, I'm telling you the truth. He's got uncountable numbers of demiliches and tartarians! That's what my scouts report anyway.

I saw some of those fights in Beyond and they were very entertaining. I do remember a few blasts of Shimmering Fields and Niefel Flames absolutely decimating some massive Abysian devil armies. Did you try any Fire Storms to kill those communions you were up against?

Dragar August 25th, 2009 01:17 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
I forget specifically, I was certainly using fire storm when i could - by the stage of my devils getting decimated i was fairly chewed up, earlier on my armies of devils + infantry + fire evocs did very well against Pangaean hordes.

Fire storm generally isn't effective quickly enough to save that situation though, the devils get chewed up very fast late game with storm. If I still had a decent earth caster with my army at the time i should have tried some earthquaking, i forget exactly when my father illearth died

vfb August 25th, 2009 01:28 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Thanks for the info. By the way, Father Illearth is alive and well and serving in the Pythium army, along with at least one Arch Devil, it looks like. :)

ano August 25th, 2009 06:57 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Abysia definitely needs Magic 3 and even with that its research isn't stellar. But at least your salamanders will be decent researchers for the cost. Also, indy shamen should be used heavily.
Also, though in general I agree with Chris (concerning Baalz' guides) I don't think that expansion rate is an important question here. If you have good or at least decent troops and know how to expand effectively, you will do it and it is a topic for another guide. If a nation has totally crappy troops then the nation guide should suggest good ways to overcome this or ways to use those troops more effectively and that's all, probably.

vfb August 25th, 2009 07:51 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
I've done well with MA Aby a Sage pretender rushing to const-6, with drain-2, depending on lanterns for research. So I totally disagree about needing Magic-3. I agree that indy shamans work just fine (once you give them a lantern).

Baalz August 25th, 2009 09:48 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Yes, storm is a big pain for devils (and vamps) but if you expect and prepare for the storm, devils can still be quite effective. Even trailing in research you should be able to bring some spells of your own at the point storm is in 'every battle'. The nice thing about having groups of devils spawning every turn (and immortal vamps of course) is it's unlikely you can manage to loose so many in one surprise to set you back too much.

Option 1: Kill the guy with the storm staff/A gems. Disease demons, earth attacks, mind hunts, manifestations, slayers. You can also stick black hearts on vamp lords for heavier duty assassins - raise skeletons, hellbind heart, life for life...

Option 2: Darkness. Under darkness & storm you won't be taking any significant archer fire and it takes a hell of a lot of mages to do much damage. Then, of course, you've got devils fighting under darkness once they close to melee, which is pretty terrifying.

Option 3: Horrors fly in storms. Use your devils to cut off the retreat rather than fighting the guys dropping the storm, then use the tactics I outlined above. Bonus: enemy mages will have a harder time targeting the horrors!

Option 4: If you've managed to get some storm demons they do quite well in storms - and it doesn't take many. A dozen can lay down some serious hurt against armies that don't bring a bunch of chaff. They've got storm flight as well if you see an opportunity to jump back and kill guys who thought they were protected from fliers, or just bask in the fact that you've brought the only effective ranged weapons to the fight and let the enemy run across the field to your devils/heavy infantry getting pounded by AN lightning. Hey, who thought they needed lighting resistance to fight Abysia?

Option 5: Precision 100 spells. Leech, enslave mind, soul slay, life for life, incinerate, bloodletting, fire storm, drain life, prison of fire, hydrophobia, heat from hell, inner furnace, curse of stones, etc. etc.

Option 6: Use all of the above together.

You can't really expect to take out multifaceted armies supported by battlefield enchantments with just flying one unit type in and attacking. If your opponent is doing things to counter what you're fielding....you need to do the same thing! :)

Sombre August 25th, 2009 10:19 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Where would you get storm demons from? Ritual of the five gates?

Baalz August 25th, 2009 10:58 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
You'll start getting a handful from ritual of the five gates relatively early. As I mention, this gets you both storm demons and more demon knights, both of which are effective in small enough numbers to make this worthwhile (The frost demons, fiends and devils are also not useless, just not in the same league as those two IMO). If you run into a situation where storm demons would be very useful you can focus more on ritual of the five gates and you shouldn't have too much trouble putting together 15-20 for big fights while also making good use of the other stuff you get. Towards late game there's a good chance you've managed to scrape up the A gems to empower a vamp lord as I suggested, and just one guy casting infernal tempest sporadically can get you a lot of lightning power.

For anybody who hasn't seen storm demons in action, they're dropping AN lightning bolts with a good precision. Against most enemy troops this means you're doing a largish fraction of your storm demon numbers in kills each turn. It's not hard to figure out that killing 12-15 guys per turn is devastating against the type of super elite troops that will be giving you the most trouble.

SlipperyJim August 25th, 2009 04:13 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalz (Post 707108)
For anybody who hasn't seen storm demons in action, they're dropping AN lightning bolts with a good precision. Against most enemy troops this means you're doing a largish fraction of your storm demon numbers in kills each turn. It's not hard to figure out that killing 12-15 guys per turn is devastating against the type of super elite troops that will be giving you the most trouble.

QFT. I played an SP game on Faerun as Lanka, who is nearly ideal for summoning Storm Demons. By the end game, I had a massive stack of Storm Demons flying around the map, and they disintegrated every army they met. Thirty Storm Demons firing a barrage is an impressive site to be sure....

Bonus: Give the Storm Demons' commander a Staff of Storms. Really, how many people would expect Abysia to use a Staff of Storms?

Anyway, back on topic ... Nice guide, Baalz!

chrispedersen August 25th, 2009 05:10 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Darkness is *not* an effective counter to mass archer fire *at all*.

Baalz August 25th, 2009 05:59 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 707160)
Darkness is *not* an effective counter to mass archer fire *at all*.

This is *not* an effective counter argument *at all*.

OmikronWarrior August 25th, 2009 06:22 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Darkness quarters base precision. I suppose if the enemy has a lot of archers and you have a lot of troops the arrows missing by 10 or more squares will still land on some troops doing damage. Or using Wind Guide to bring Precision back up to sane levels. Ditto with evocations. Mostly, I suspect Darkness does a fine job in reducing enemy archers' effectiveness.

chrispedersen August 25th, 2009 07:03 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
MAximum distance to miss by never exceeds actual distance.
The amount missed by will also be a bell curve - so the amount missed by is actually fairly small.

When an archer mass targets a large mass of enemy troops, the vast majority of missiles target the middle of the enemy lines (especially if there is the prospect of causing friendly casualties).

This tendency *increases* as the distance decreases.

Do a straightline comparison between combats (for example by introducing a unit that autocasts darkness) and you will see that for many combats darkness makes essentially no difference in combat results.

Baalz August 25th, 2009 07:54 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Seems pretty effective to me. Just ran a test with 300 archers vs 50 devils under darkness & storm. 0 devil casualties, 127 archers killed before they ran away.

Archer precision 10. -7 for darkness. -2 (it was at 3) for storm. Current precision: 1. Half the arrows are negated by the storm.

Out of 300 archers I count maybe 6 arrow hits turn one (at roughly max range for shortbows). Probably twice that turn two as the devils get close. Turn three the devils are in melee range, and take about 20 hits...but friendly fire damage is even higher and of course the devils cut through the 2 defense low protection archers like...well, I was gonna say soft butter but it was more like melted butter.

Sure you could keep the devils off the archers longer with some blockers but the archers really didn't hit any significant number of devils until they were literally nose to nose. Darkness + storm is extremely effective vs archers and mages.

chrispedersen August 25th, 2009 10:42 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
I said *nothing* about storm.

Storm is effective - it eliminates half of the missiles automatically.



The point was *darkness*. And as I specifically said, compare archers with blockers, to archers with blockers with darkness.

KissBlade August 25th, 2009 11:09 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
It's true Darkness isn't a great answer to archers but darkness is a great support spell for demons of any sort.

Baalz August 25th, 2009 11:44 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
That doesn't seem right to me, but I'm not going to run a bunch of tests to prove/disprove your hypothesis. Without the storm the archers would have had a precision of 2 instead of 1 and half the arrows wouldn't have been negated. The precision difference would have been pretty much insignificant so the archers would be about twice as effective without the storm. Twice of very ineffective is still pretty ineffective.

Is darkness an effective archer counter if you're marching a block of 500 militia at the archers? Of course not. Is it effective if you've got 50 heavy guys spread into 4 groups? Indisputably - a *lot* of the arrows hit empty ground even from relatively close range. If we're not under a storm it's even more stark because fliers instantly spread out all around trying to attack rearmost/archers. If you're engaged in melee, friendly fire will be as bad or worse than offensive fire.

With mages its pretty stark as well. Watch a mage trying to hit a clump of vamps with blade wind as they're trying to get through his bodyguards a few squares away. Invariably lots of dead vamps. Watch the same mage try it under darkness. Very few vamps will get hit by more than one blade and lots of the blades will hit dirt. Same is true of most spell, it's just most noticeable with the large number that come out with that spell.

Dragar August 26th, 2009 12:45 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
well, without the storm the devils will fly in to melee first turn and wreak havoc, so the issue is really only if darkness helps when your opponent lays down a storm.

Hoplosternum August 26th, 2009 05:08 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
I agree you need storm in there otherwise the devils simply fly in to wreck havok. And originally we were assuming storm was cast by your opponent. It's cast to stop the devils flying even at the cost of halving missle effectiveness.

But CPs other point is that you would normally have blockers. Who at that stage is going to use archers against you with no blockers? Especially if they are using Storm themselves to stop the devils flying!

Because your blockers may/should have decent shields then they are likely to take less damage from friendly fire archery than the unshielded devils even under darkness induced archer inaccuracy.

And if storm has been cast defensively then he can also cast Wind Guide to buff his archers.

I am not sure blockers would overcome the other points Baalz made - Storm Demons, Horrors etc. But I think it would be fair to assume they would be there and storm (Storm Demons aside) counteracts the flying to mean they have to be fought.

Baalz August 26th, 2009 08:58 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
I think you're missing the point of my example. At a range of about 10 squares (how close do you suppose the devils are engaging your blockers?) 95% of the archers missed under storm and darkness. Is arrow fend a poor archery counter because it only blocks 80%? Does storm + darkness + devils mean you win every fight against any conceivable opposition? Uh...no. Are devils easily countered by putting storm up? Uh...no.

chrispedersen August 26th, 2009 03:28 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalz (Post 707237)
I think you're missing the point of my example. At a range of about 10 squares (how close do you suppose the devils are engaging your blockers?) 95% of the archers missed under storm and darkness. Is arrow fend a poor archery counter because it only blocks 80%? Does storm + darkness + devils mean you win every fight against any conceivable opposition? Uh...no. Are devils easily countered by putting storm up? Uh...no.

You missed my point, baalz.

Darkness is unnecessary. It only marginally increases the effectiveness of the tactic. You should have better use for such a mage. bonegrinding, wail of death - whatever.

Again, a line of blockers backed by a line of archers will be virtualy unaffected by the loss of precision.

As for 'how close do you expect your devils to engage...' 10 is WAY too high.
If the archers are at range 3 - the MAXIMUM deviation is 3.75. But this is a bell curve distribution - and the median miss is 1 square. Which is *most likely* occupied.
And this assumes a precision of 1.

If the archers get windguide (or any kind of significant boost to precision) - the variance at up to range 9 or so is: 1.

5 * 1.25/6 = 1.xx.

Put it another way: archers are MUCH less affected by darkness than melee troops, in mass combats.

Put it a third way, so you get my point: If you are fighting large masses of melee troops - sure darkness is great. Fighting undeadblockers and archers .. I'd use a different spell.

13lackGu4rd April 3rd, 2010 01:45 PM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
from all your guides this is 1 of my favorite. turning such an obvious fire nation into a blood+astral powerhouse instead. using expensive, non sacred cap only Warlocks as "mere" blood hunters, when each of them is just so much more efficient than those H1B1 Mictlan/Lanka hunters. same thing you did in your Niefelheim guide with the Skratti, just that the Warlocks are cap only while the Skratti aren't.

so in that regard, you're mentioned the Fountain of Blood as a solid choice, but not you're preferred 1. I have to wonder, do you think Abysia really needs the awake Vampire Queen for SC duties? because other than that, and maybe starting soul contracts on year1(assuming you manage to get the research, with most of your cap mages going blood hunting) I really don't see the benefit of the Vampire Queen over the much cheap Fountain of Blood, and also the benefit of having your pretender awake instead of dormant. so I was wondering, what about something like a Dom8(to spread your wonderful yet hot dominion around and into your enemies) B6A4E3F2 dormant Blood Fountain with O3P0H3G1L1M1? here are my reasons for suggesting this pretender:
1. you get luck1 instead of misfortune, which saves you from some but obviously not all lab accidents and other annoying events.
2. you get growth1 to help negate the population loss from blood hunting. fits perfectly into this more gardening blood hunting than Mictlan's or Lanka's scorched earth blood hunting. also helps your old mages survive the winters.
3. you get a superb blood hunter cloud trapeze capable so you don't need to hunt in your capital.
4. with A4 you can forge both air boosters(if you want to empower a warlock or 2 to start pumping out storm demons).
5. a single air booster(only bag of winds fits on the Fountain of Blood) brings you to B6A5, which is enough to forge the Robe of the Magi. this by itself seems to be worth the A4 investment... especially when the only thing you're doing with air gems is empowering Warlocks...
6. with the E4 you also get easy access to Demon Knights, Father Illwinter, Troll King, Hammers and other earth goodies. also, if you're desperate for an Earth combat caster and you didn't find enough air gems to summon a troll king or use hidden in sand, than you can always cloud trapeze your Fountain of Blood to drop Army of Gold(or Lead with a Ring of Wizardy, forgable by some of your Warlocks), Weapons of Sharpness and whatever else you'd want from the Earth line.
7. you still get your soul contracts, and it's not like you could afford a hammer for your Vampire Queen to use, even if you did get E2 you'll need const4 to forge the earth boots, and than use your pretender to search for earth sites. so the loss of the hand slots isn't even costing you.

so unless I'm missing some obvious advantages to the immortal Vampire Queen, or overestimating the Abysian line up than I don't see why the Vampire Queen is such a good choice for Abysia, and why it overshadows the Fountain of Blood, either with my setup or something else, lots of options here...

Starshine_Monarch April 4th, 2010 10:09 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Baalz likes to make you try your own designs with his strategies, but graciously includes some examples of his own, so it's not that the Vampire Queen is the best for Abysia, but rather it's his own preferred build. Aside from that, he wanted to emphasize that Abysia can be a flexible nation. The Awake Vampire Queen gives you a lot of flexibility that the Blood Fountain can't offer, the biggest difference being that the Vampire Queen is mobile and can fly, and thus isn't restricted by the availability of a Lab to move itself around the map very quickly.

13lackGu4rd April 4th, 2010 10:37 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
if you're going with the Vampire Queen for SC duties than might as well push dom all the way to 9 for that nice awe... yeah turmoil+luck is much more synergistic than order+misfortune when you're pushing your dom into the enemy, and I guess turmoil1 won't be too bad a hit on your income, though compared to order3 it will be pretty significant unless you get lucky with nice income events early on. also, the Blood Fountain with A4 has Cloud Trapeze, which solves its immobility issues, and the main reason I went with A4 on it, Robes of the Magi and all the other goodies were secondary to that.

but well, I guess Abysia's Warlock pretender could also fit very well, a rainbow that can forge hammers, soul contracts, robes of the magi, etc, and actually use the hammer while forging other things compared to the Blood Fountain. however the dom score will have to be lower, probably 6-7 so it'll be harder to spread your dom into your enemies without massive preaching+blood sacrificing with your H3 recruit everywhere priests, which isn't too bad...

Starshine_Monarch April 4th, 2010 10:46 AM

Re: MA Abysia: The Burninator Flies Again
 
Apologies for the false example. For some reason Dominions bugged up and gave me the image of a Vampire Queen while designing that pretender when it was really a Blood Fountain I was creating... The example has been removed.


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